Nekima, the expensive poorly modeled sibling.

[Akujie]

@Dolomyte; Liked the original post, the comparison was pretty nice, and all though I disagreeded with one or two points, the overall anaylisis was excellent and mostly impartial

One thing to note in the whole comparison thing too is when you look at these 11+ point models, they all have a very narrow scope of playability. Before with the "filth" list you could run Nek/Lelu/Lilitu with Zoriada, Pandy or lillith with about the same result, where as to run Snowstorm/Duet with say Marcus or Ramos would not have been a bit ubsurd (for lack of a better word). With her now, she has that niche fit with her sister Lillith, similair to those other monster peices out there...or maybe I am wrong, anyhow i think (as valueable as that is) that the versatility of the peice in a faction might be a factor of consideration.

[Q'iq'el]

The thing is, she doesn't really have any niche with Lilith. Maybe with Nephilim based Zoraida list, but I think Lilith gets far more mileage from taking the Siblings and perhaps a Black Blood Shaman. Once Tuco is out Nekima will be even harder to justify for Lilith.

There is a Lilith+Nekima list I think stands some chance, it is almost exclusively Book 1 Young Nephilim spam with Nekima to make it work. I don't think too many players will want that and I think it'd still be inferior to a list which takes siblings.

I'm still not sure how to play Lilith's avatar, but it at least seems that taking a Waldgeist with avatar list will be a smart move once more - another model eating up into Nekima's allowance.

But the bottom line is, when Lilith needs a heavy lifting, she gets Mature Nephilim. Even before the Growth lists it wasn't that hard to get 2 of those in a single game and the initial cost is 3~6SS. Doesn't make sense to sink 13SS into model which isn't at least twice as good (at least as long as there's only limited synergy and no utility to speak of).

Snow Storm may be slow, low on AP and generally overpriced, but it does ton of stuff for Tina. Nekima does nothing for Lilith - she helps Tots and Young, which are very solid models as is and don't need much help. Nekima's own hitting power isn't highly superior to Mature Nephilim or even Young Nephilim, and Lilith crew doesn't lack hitting power to begin with.

Other Nephilim bring utility to the crew, and utility is what Lilith crew lacks. Nekima's raison d'être was taking that utility one step further - she did what Mature Nephilim do and alongside she helped both Book 1 Nephilim with their limited utility and Book 2 Nephilim with theirs. Now she works only for Book 1 minions, which is meh for the price.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

Actually Tuco an Nekima are both part of Grow/Avatar list

[Q'iq'el]

Actually Tuco an Nekima are both part of Grow/Avatar list

It's already been pointed out Nekima makes Growth list works. I admit it myself.

My point is a list with utility and models Growing/Maturing without Nekimas help works better, is more varied and provides for better games (at least I appreciate the challenge of planning to both kill and gain Blood Counters to grow, rather than Grow everything off Desperate Mercenaries in turn 1). It is also more competitive most of the time, at least in my opinion.

Nekima and Tuco may be great in avatar list, but I'm pretty sure Siblings Luring people into forests and Waldgeist moving the forests closer to obectives will be more valuable, than getting Young or Mature turn 1.

And Tuco will work just as well without Nekima as he works with her.

In other words, she still does little to make Lilith crews better. As I said, if Zoraida ran Nephilim list, she'd probably appreciate help with Growing Tots. Lilith has always been doing well enough without it.

Or to put it other way around - Tuco, Lilitu, even Lelu and Black Shaman, enable Lilith to execute new tactics. Nekima facilitates Tots and Young doing what they already do well enough. This is not big help - it's a minor gain in reliability I personally don't want to pay 13SS for.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

It's already been pointed out Nekima makes Growth list works. I admit it myself.

My point is a list with utility and models Growing/Maturing without Nekimas help works better, is more fun and provides for better games. It is also more competitive most of the time, at least in my opinion.

Nekima and Tuco may be great in avatar list, but I'm pretty sure Siblings Luring people into forests and Waldgeist moving the forests closer to obectives will be more valuable, than getting Young or Mature turn 1.

And Tuco will work just as well without Nekima as he works with her.

In other words, she still does little to make Lilith crews better. As I said, if Zoraida ran Nephilim list, she'd probably appreciate help with Growing Tots. Lilith has always been doing well enough without it.

What you can do is this

1) use Tuco's taint loyalty remove friendly status

2) Get Lilith cast illusionary forest and deal three damage to one desperate merc and kill the other and try to heal the other by 2. If it does heal, get the BBS to taint blood and inject blood on the merc. If you didn't have to use taint blood and inject blood that should give you two blood counters and one corpse counter. If you didn't you should still have at lest one on Lilith

3) Second turn get Tuco to do his stuff again and turn the last merc unfriendly

4) Lilith kills it gets a blood counter makes a forest is ready to become her avatar, and the're is enough blood to fully mature a tot

Nekima on the earlier turns will just be there to help the tots grow, but after the second turn she will turn into a beat stick

Edited October 15, 2011 by Sliver Chocobo

[Dolomyte]

What you can do is this

1) use Tuco's taint loyalty remove friendly status

2) Get Lilith cast illusionary forest and deal three damage to one desperate merc and kill the other and try to heal the other by 2. If it does heal, get the BBS to taint blood and inject blood on the merc. If you didn't have to use taint blood and inject blood that should give you two blood counters and one corpse counter. If you didn't you should still have at lest one on Lilith

3) Second turn get Tuco to do his stuff again and turn the last merc unfriendly

4) Lilith kills it gets a blood counter makes a forest is ready to become her avatar, and the're is enough blood to fully mature a tot

Nekima on the earlier turns will just be there to help the tots grow, but after the second turn she will turn into a beat stick

I think Q acknowledges that, what he is saying is that for 13ss all nekima does is enhance something that lilith was already capable of doing. Whereas for 14ss you can take the twins and add multiple new layers and strategies to how her army plays. or you can take tuco and a wadgeist, etc.

I think if your building a grow list nekima is better then those options, if your not doing a grow list, the twins are probably a better option.

[Mister Shine]

I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times in Nekima threads: Zorraida like Nekima, its an Obey beat-stick machine fun factory

[CommanderSasha]

Any idea how tall that Freebooter mini really is? I like that better than Nekima's sculpt and it pretty much has all of the same details. Wings, big sword, horns, hooves, no clothing worth mentioning, etc. I'd prefer to use that and just break out Nekima if someone says something.

I have had this mini for 5 years, and she is gorgeous; I am a newcomer to Malifaux, and was going to use her as Lilith, until I saw Nekima! Now I can have both!

This model includes a metal 20mm square base with some texturing, and including base stands 62mm high to the top of her sword (the haft spike, actually, as the sword is inverted!)

Without the square base, she has an irregularly shaped wedge/spike into the ground below her hooves, so if you wanrt a resin base you'll need to file her wedge and drill the base, or if you want a slotta base, you'll need to GS a good foundation.

The wings are separate, and it wouldn't take much GS-filling and smoothing if you wanted to leave them off, so that you could have her bare backed.

BTW, where can I download stat cards for her, and also the Black Blood Shaman? I want a different model for him too, and their stats aren't in the "NeverbornV2" download on www.Malifaux.com?

[nilus]

[quote=CommanderSasha;325774

BTW, where can I download stat cards for her, and also the Black Blood Shaman? I want a different model for him too, and their stats aren't in the "NeverbornV2" download on www.Malifaux.com?

[NBmaster]

So what do you all think abor Nekima being made a henchman? I have thought she would make a better henchman than a minion ever since I picked her up. And now with these changes I think it would be good for her to be elevated to henchman status. I think it is better for the fluff (all top neverborn hate each other especially lil and Nekima) and would allow her to be the grow list henchman and she could leave lilith to her own devises. Just my two cents what do ya'll think? Thats 7 tots and 2dmercs at 25ss sounds like an interesting crew to me.

[magicpockets]

Surprised no-one has mentioned JackDaw - awesome model for 10ss, and def worth taking in some low point games depending on the rest of the crew and objectives. He's my personal "OP" issue with the game, but noone seems to agree

[Sliver Chocobo]

Surprised no-one has mentioned JackDaw - awesome model for 10ss, and def worth taking in some low point games depending on the rest of the crew and objectives. He's my personal "OP" issue with the game, but noone seems to agree

He's very very good, but to get the best out of him you have to base a crew around him, like Nekima I guess. Personally since the models he works with are rare 2 and cost 8 points I wouldn't say he's OP

[Q'iq'el]

Surprised no-one has mentioned JackDaw - awesome model for 10ss, and def worth taking in some low point games depending on the rest of the crew and objectives. He's my personal "OP" issue with the game, but noone seems to agree

Jack Daw isn't an "enabler" type of minion. Yes, he's absolutely great for what he does - people take him in 40~45 point games quite a lot.

In 35 games he's used, from what I've seen, mainly to mess up with tournament scoring system. You get short on some vital models if you take him in these smaller games, I think.

Nekima, just like Snow Storm, is supposed to work in 35 point lists - she should enable new builds, perhaps even multiple new builds for her price. Growth list, unfortunately, is the least fascinating of those.

But from the beginning I've been saying she may do more for Zoraida than Lilith - other posters in this thread seem to confirm that.

I suppose this is her true new place - Take her with Zoraida, give her a Tot or Two, and you're getting 2 Matures and Nekima for 19 points - all possible to obey and all hitting like a truck.

And the Wp debuff, which is only minor bonus for Lilith crews, will actually work for Zoraida pretty well too.

[gnam]

I suppose this is her true new place - Take her with Zoraida, give her a Tot or Two, and you're getting 2 Matures and Nekima for 19 points - all possible to obey and all hitting like a truck.

I' not sure I agree with this, you would need two Tots, Nekima and 2 Desperate Mercs to guarantee the growing. Sure, you can do it with opponents models too, but then you rely on them having living models you can kill.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think Nekima still does have her uses, but 13 points is very pricey in my mind.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I' not sure I agree with this, you would need two Tots, Nekima and 2 Desperate Mercs to guarantee the growing. Sure, you can do it with opponents models too, but then you rely on them having living models you can kill.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think Nekima still does have her uses, but 13 points is very pricey in my mind.

Nekima and one tot is enough to get a young

[magicpockets]

Re Jack, I'll take him in 30ss up sometimes. With Pandora he's insane

[i_was_like_you]

So what do you all think abor Nekima being made a henchman? I have thought she would make a better henchman than a minion ever since I picked her up. And now with these changes I think it would be good for her to be elevated to henchman status. I think it is better for the fluff (all top neverborn hate each other especially lil and Nekima) and would allow her to be the grow list henchman and she could leave lilith to her own devises. Just my two cents what do ya'll think? Thats 7 tots and 2dmercs at 25ss sounds like an interesting crew to me.

That's what I've been saying since I read the book 2 fluff and looked at drifter on Ronin. At 13ss, yeah, she's pricey to include in a master's crew. As a henchman leading a crew for free, gaining use soulstones for all of the things she's deficient in, with a henchman pool of probably 5, Nekima can run a grow or partial grow list and still have room to take other interesting support models. Nekima is a better mother of monsters than Lilith is, especially now that Lilith's avatar is all about trees and Waldgeists.

I thought maybe book 3 would bring the rules set for upgrading minions to henchmen, but we'll have to wait until book 4 at the least. I heard in the chatrooms that the entire idea was something from book 1 that was later scrapped. Let's hope not.

P.s. Here's the proxy I've used for Nekima since I started playing Lilith's crew (Reaper Minis' Princess of Hell by Bobby Jackson):

I've left mine as is, as she is fairly close. Changing out the whip for the greatsword and removing her other sword, enlarging her horns, and giving her cloven hooves is really all that's needed. I prefer the pile of skulls that this Reaper mini is molded to over the pile of rocks that Nekima attempts to adhere to.

As far as size goes, even leaving her as is with the sword in the air, and having her glued to a 50mm base, she still fits in the same amount of 4x4 pluck that my Mature Nephilim occupy in my Malifaux Battlefoam bag.

And here's my horrible paint job so far:

Edited October 20, 2011 by i_was_like_you
proxy nekima

[Q'iq'el]

I've given it some thought in the few spare moments I've got since this thread started.

The way I see it, the comparison with other faction is neither primary concern or a good way to judge Nekima's actual value. I think I'm not alone in thinking than there's more to Wyrd's pricing scheme than just a constant point value assigned to every ability - most likely factions have different price structures so that they can remain balanced while playing in fundamentally different way.

When considering the value of Nekima, one can't consider the model alone, but the crew she's likely to appear - her impact on such a crew and its relative power.

As additional reference points one could use alternative models and crews the same masters can take for the same price.

Since she is not only a fighty Nephilim monster, but also an enabler to the Growth lists, this seems the best approach to me.

Below is only a very rough assesment. IMO her abilities can be divided into three groups:

1. Presence on the table as a solid melee fighter: She's a better fighter than Mature Nephilim due to her reach (both Rg and Ht), she has identical mobility. Her Triggers are marginally more useful, but in the same ballpark. Her survivability is worse (2 Wd more doesn't help enough and Irresistible means the opponent has to commit more resources to killing her, which doesn't always translate to higher survivability) and her staying power is considerably lower (Mature can appear only after a Young Nephilim engages in melee combat and should it die, it can be re-Matured from another Young Nephilim. Nekima needs to go on her own, which makes her easier to target for ranged attacks, and once dead, she's out).

2. The abilities she can use to affect non-Nephilim models, which serve entire Neverborn faction are very limited. Essentially it's Terrible Beauty only. This ability seems to be most valuable for Zoraida and Zoraida can, if forced, field Nephilim models with success. Lilith would've benefited from the debuff when casting Transpositon if not for the short range of the .

3. Abilities that benefit nephilim:

a) Terror Tots and Young Nephilim only:

- +4Ca when casting Grow or Mature

- Nephilim Heart (masks to Ca or Cb*).

- Growth Spurt (Tots)

All Nephilim:

- Regeneration 1

- Spill Black Blood (a synergetic ability rather than a benefit)

- Meat for The Young (her worst trigger, so not much of a benefit).

Some of those can be temporarily extended to non-nephilim models, if Black Blood Shaman is present, but that's BBS doing and shouldn't be counted towards her own value, IMHO.

* Her ability to add masks to Wp and Df is completely useless for Terror Tots and Young Nephilim. Likely a remnant of the "original intentions", which must have differed from the recently enforced "original intentions".

The above list makes it pretty clear only Nephilim lists use her to her full potential. Lilith and Zoraida are capable of fielding those, but since I have no experience with Zoraida, I'll focus on the former. Also, assuming her price of 13SS is build around her role in the list where the largest amount of her abilities is used, I'll propose 2 Growth list as the base for the discussion about her actual value:

1. The "traditional" Growth list:

- Lilith + Totem (2SS)

- 3 Terror Tots (9SS)

- Black Blood Shaman (6SS)

- Nekima (13SS)

- 2 Desperate Mercenaries (4SS)

Total: 34SS.

SS Pool in 35SS Scrap: 5SS

In the first turn the crew expands to:

- Lilith + Totem (2SS)

- 1 TT (3SS)

- 2 Mature Nephilim (20SS)

- Black Blood Shaman (6SS)

- Nekima (13SS)

Total: 44SS, 5SS Pool. +10SS gain.

Clear drawback to the above list lies in its lack of synergy. Nekima does little for Mature Nephilim or BBS and in fact synergizes only with the one remaining Terror Tot. It would probably be smarter to create one Mature Nephilim (to Carry BBS) and 2 Young Nephilim, so that the list can use her Nephilim Heart to higher potential. Or stay with 3 terror Tots so that they can get Fly and extra :masks to Ca when they need to sprint.

Once there are 2 Matures on the Table, Nekima is regresses to being a mere beatstick and Regeneration 1 provider.

2. The min/max Growth list.

I had no time to test the concept yet, but this is the list which tries to maximise on Nekima buffs:

- Lilith + Totem (2SS)

- 5x Terror Tot (15SS)

- Nekima (13SS)

- 2x Desperate Mercenary.

Total 34SS, 5SS pool (in 35SS Scrap)

In first turn the crew can be turned into:

- Lilith+Totem (2SS)

- 5x Young Nephilim (30SS)

- Nekima (13SS)

Total 45SS, 5SS Pool - a gain of 11SS.

While the crew lacks healing and its AoE capabilities are more limited (between Nekima and Lilith they are good enough against all, but Neverborn crews), every single model, other than Lilith and her Totem) can fight buffed with Nephilim Heart. Whether you stay with Terror Tots or Grow them to Young Nephilim, you have 15~30SS of models which can greatly increase their efficiency (Tots gain flight and auto-sprint or auto-Flay, Young gain auto-Flay).

Unlike the original Growth list, 5 Young approach has further space for growth - the list should get more Blood Counters over time and Young can Mature relatively easily, whether Nekima survives or dies.

I feel, that in the latter crew Nekima may well be worth the whole 13SS. In a more traditional crew her impact through the game is lower, but her ability to bring 10SS more of models in turn 1 has to count for something too.

When you consider alternatives to bringing Nekima, in a Lilith crew, it's either Siblings or Tuco, possibly also Waldgeist. Neither of these models has any major synergy with Nekima and all are expensive enough not to fit very in the same crew with her (perhaps in 50SS+ games). I realize in case of Zoraida, Nekima is even more limiting, because there's entire world of new and shiny Zoraida can use, which excludes Nephilim altogether (Collodi and the Dolls, Nightmares, Woes, Book 3 Silurid or even Gremlins).

From in-game point of view, Lilith crew with Siblings has more options than a Growth list. It can take BBS and speed up counters generation (doesn't help as much as Nekima, but still makes Growth easier), can toss in Tuco or Waldgeist (esp. if you intend on manifesting the avatar). Even without Siblings, combinations of BBS, Tuco and Waldgeist, with Tots or Young as generic filler, seems more interesting to play (subjective) and more flexible.

In almost every event where the player has to select a limited list of models, non-growth list, excluding Nekima, seems to be a better choice - not only because of flexibility, but also because these models work with Zoraida or Pandora as well (allowing masters to share the models in the pool).

Where choice of models is absolutely free, one can bring ton of Tots, Young and 2 Mature to field some solid Growth lists.

There are 3 things I dislike about Nekima, which cannot be changed by discounting her SS cost:

- She locks the player down in Book 1. In fact, I'd have to buy 3 blisters of Book 1 models to continue playing her. (misplaced synergies)

- I've paid 40$ (incl. shipping) for the model I can't fit in my lists anymore, unless I pay ~60$ more to get enough TT/YN/MN for full Growth List. (personal grip)

- It's very hard to figure out how she's supposed to work with Avatars - whether it's Lilith or Zoraida, the lists seem to go in opposite direction from what Nekima offers (Lilith's forest lists don't seem to rely on any synergy with Growing models and Zoraida's avatar seems to like Beasts, Constructs and Dolls more than Nephilim Nekima would fill her crew with). (Book 3 makes her obsolete)

To sum up, Nekima seems to get in the way of Book 2 models now (rather than synergize with her) and Book 3 makes her straight out obsolete. Taking a 13SS model for 30$ which will find its way only to non-avatar versions of my crews, that goes beyond "situational" in my opinion.

I think Nekima's further hurt by the lack of clarity on the Wyrd side as to what the intended role for this model is/was. Weird Sketch has been very adamant she had been supposed to give :masks only to Terror Tots and Young Nephilim, but I remember old discussions about Double Take, where different intentions had been presented. The wording of the ability, allowing it to add :masks to Wp and Df, along Ca and Cb, also suggests the Nephilim Heart had been originally designed to affect a much bigger group of models.

Because she seems to be worth every one of that 13SS in a dedicated Growth list, I don't think it can be easily fixed. To discount her low enough that she would be considered as a regular melee model would require breaking these lists first - Out with the buff to Growth/Mature and Nephilim Hearth. Without these two abilities she'd probably be worth 8~10SS and actually work for many lists. I'd price her below Mature Nephilim, because of the lower survivability and the fact she cannot be obtained through Maturing Young Nephilim.

IMO she's found herself on the wrong end of the worst kind of cuddle a game designer can do - an expensive, difficult to build and paint model has been made obsolete overnight. She'll still work for players who have enough of TT/YN/MN to field her with, but it'd be harder to convince other players to buy more of these old models we've been playing with for the last 2 years, when there's so much of the new shiny stuff in the Wyrd's pipeline.

The only hope is Wyrd will rework her into something entirely different in the future Malifaux II and get her a new lease of life.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

I actually like Nekima's model

[Nephalumps]

There are two things I dislike about Nekima:

1) How her primary connection to her scenic base are her thin as hell ankle/calves. I've already bent her a fair bit on accident, and if she breaks at that part, I'm gonna have a grand 'ol time fixing it.

2) The fact that I never used her before all her rules were changed.

Nekima is a concept that would be hard for any game company to get right: its a really powerful, big, single model. Those always either end up OP (which is arguably what her original rules set was,) or not worth it (which is where she's edging now.)

Hopefully down the line (Malifaux v3?) they'll tweak her cost a little, and maybe give her some Armor or something to make her more palatable. I don't mind her not buffing anything other than Tots and Young, but (as Q'iq'el mentioned) if she's going to keep her current rules set, she should be brought up a bit in the bruiser department. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for essentially a character Mature Nephalim+.

[micahwc]

Q'iq'el,

I can see the validity of your points, but I disagree with some of what you have said.

I feel like Nekima has just as much useabillity for Pandora as she does for Lililth or Zoraida. She debuffs enemies will power, and it requires a WP check to target her. She has the charge/sword range to hit anything within Pandora's 12 inch death bubble. I feel like she was designed to work well with all book 1 neverborn masters. The only master she has no synergy with is the dreamer.

[M_Ruckuss]

My problem with Nekima is that you can take a BBS and some desperate mercs for a good few SS less and still grow efficiently.

I like the grow list, but I think tots themselves are vastly under-rated- I rarely grow them unless they can definitely grow into a mature the turn after. (As an aside I use reaper models for both- i bought the lilith boxed set but wasnt a fan of either- including the one shown previosuly in this thread- shes lovely.) I would much rather use the twins, or take something like the hooded rider-they just seem to offer more options.

She was cuddled for the right reasons- not only for the lure trigger, but the fact you could keep 2 lilitu near her, and they lost no wounds due to regen- it genuinely was filithy for those who never played with/against it- I was proud when I hit on it, but quickly stopped it as its broken! The problem is she has lost alot of her effectiveness because of the aforemetioned problems, but nothing has 'replaced' the ability.

I also agree it would be nice to see her as a henchmen-the games all about fluff and this would represent her better I feel-someone who is a chaotic rampaging beast who lost the leadership of the neverborn, but is still capable of leading in her own right at times. Short of this,she needs a rewrite as she just seems to be missing something. She is supposed to be the most powerful of all the neverborn, yet isnt terrifying, has to lose wounds to be effective, and is actually very fragile (She almost always seem to die in my games-shes is always a target and goes down eaily). I would rather, as others have said, take matures and grow more if/when one dies.

My other problem is that the Neph dont have to be a grow list. Taking a bbs means this is an option, taking Nekima is almost a strategy/ way to play unto itself

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

* Her ability to add masks to Wp and Df is currently useless for Terror Tots and Young Nephilim. Likely a remnant of the "original intentions"' date= which must have differed from the recently enforced "original intentions".

Fixt

[Sliver Chocobo]

If it wasn't obvious already, book 4 or a later book will have alterive models the tots can grow into, by simply having the young or mature characteristic. My only problem is Nephilim heat doesn't effect mature Nephilim

[i_was_like_you]

If it wasn't obvious already, book 4 or a later book will have alterive models the tots can grow into, by simply having the young or mature characteristic. My only problem is Nephilim heat doesn't effect mature Nephilim

Here's to hoping they can grow into a Nekima. If we're talking chess, tots are pawns and Nekima's the queen. Sure, we can't get two of her into play at once (unlike real chess), but a replacement or, through the magic of grow, a bargain basement initial Nekima would be a wrecking ball.

Now, if only Lilith could actually mother more tots for the cost of some blood counters.