Nekima, the expensive poorly modeled sibling.

[Dolomyte]

She's getting much maligned since the change to Nephilim Heart, so i figured we should talk about her and see if she is really worth 13ss.

On a side note, I would love to see wyrd please release a "Nice Dream" edition of this model, where despite pinning, using rocks (real mother effing rocks) and some careful epoxying for support she still slowly is leaning her way to snapping an ankle when I transport her in a case. Paperclip sized legs are totally sexy, but totally blow to transport. Also, maybe the "Nice Dream" edition can fit in your own case without taking up 1/4th of the large foam.

Stats

Her Wk / CG is among the highest in the game, up there with Mature and the Riders. Cannot complain.

Ht is tied with the largest models in the game, which I'm fine with, too bad she's sculpted like that (see above)

Wp is above average, with no associated triggers

Ca is minion average, which for a 13ss model kind of sucks, good thing she has 0 spells. so it really is a dump stat (unless your being attacked by colette)

Df is minion average, with no associated triggers.

Wd she is tied among the most in the game (second theoretically to snowstorm against non-magic crews)

Her sword is 3 inch reach, with a CB 7, and a decent damage track 3/4/6.

Abilities

Black blood - her and every other nephelim

Blood Sense - her and the BBS, but not a 0, so nice

Enraged by Insolence - Decent enough I guess, really meant for the grow list I suppose since it does not work if a terror tot is killed.

Flight - Nice

Irresistable - One of the better defensive abilities, Does not take HUGE flips for most other heavy hitters to bypass, and once you get past it she goes down pretty fast.

Nephilim Princess - Solid ability, who does not love a little regen

Nurture Neph - Enables the grow list, amazing ability for that list

Regen 1 - Not bad

Terrible Beauty : Amazing aura, -2 wp is clutch against things that attack willpower.

Neverborn G-sword - Decent ability, you can always trigger something, not always the best thing, but something. + to damage flips is clutch.

+1 Instinct, Melee expert - Solid

Blood Offering - Grow list friendly

Growth Spurt - Give a young, terror tot, or Lelu flight, everyone else has float or flight already, I think.

Neph Heart - +M to tots and young, Giving it to their Ca is good for tots for those 15 inch sprints and grows, nothing for the young. Giving it to WP or DF is just stupid, since neither of those has triggers that can use it, maybe a unique or subbreed of tots and youngs in the future? Give it to the CB for AUTO FLAY!!!, Making tots hit harder then lelu for probably half the cost

Spill black blood - Good desperation ability, also pretty good at clearing out swarms of low wound models near one of your own (IE alps)

Triggers

Bloody Fate - Card draw, even with a discard, is nice.

Throw aside - Meh, its nice if your near a building or on one maybe, but pretty situational

Meat for the young - Again, very situational, I'm pretty sure I would always rather take the damage

Rip in half - Situational. Can be amazing, can be worthless.

So now your all like, dolomyte, what the hell was the point of going over everything one by one. Well lets look at some closely costed models.

The 11 soulstone snowstorm, and the 14 soulstone coryphee duet.

Snowstorm charges less, but walks the same, he is smaller, less willful, a better caster, a much better defender, and has either 4 less, or 4 more wounds, depending on who is attacking him. He also has no defensive triggers.

So result ? DRAW

His weapon has worse range, 1 less cb, and 3/3/6 for damage, but can trigger a ++ to the damage flip (so worse then nekima in just about every regard weapon wise)

Result? Advantage Nekima

instead of irresistable he has bulletproof 3 and always has soft cover, which is awesome and probably better against , but much worse against melee and non ranged attack spells. He is immune to morale duels, which is not as useful as one would thing, he floats instead of flies, and instead of black blood he has shatter 4. Which can equal less or more damage, and can possibly hurt your own people more then black blood. Base to base cover is fricking nice though, just not against melee crews

result? Advantage Nekima, She has more abilities, however against lets say the guild, snowstorms cover aura is probably better then nekimas stuff combined.

He has some instinct too, but no melee expert, so in that she has the advantage. He does have flurry, but with his other abilities I've never actually used it

Result? Advantage Nekima

He can do a 0 to heal to full after killing a model, which is better then regen, he can push a golem or gamin within 8 inches up to him with a 0, which is meh, he can give a model frozen heart with a 0, which is ok, he can give himself terrifying 12, which is nice, or he can give his damage flips a + with a 0. Foul weather as a 1 lets him move, and push models within 12 inches towards a table edge, which can really move his crew forward, he can move 6 instead of 2, which is nice. Its like moving for free and moving everyone else 2 inches. Sleet, for 1, is a pretty solid 6 inch CB debuff to ranged strikes and spells, and also prevents charges unless you win a WP-12 duel. it also gives himself and other frozen heart models in the aura cover, which is pimp.

Dude has a ton of really useful 0 actions, but I would not say they are better then nekimas, the heal to full is sweet, and i'll call that even with blood offering. but the others are a bit weaker then growth spurt, neph heart, and spill black blood. I think his two 1 action abilities however are as good as nephelim heart and growth spurt, perhaps a bit better in the right circumstance. Nekima out passive abilities him, he out active abilities her, if only slightly

Result? Advantage snowstorm

He has two, overpower for spells and grip of winter for the melee attack, He can't auto trigger at all, and I would say overpower and grip of winter are decent, but will not be used as much as nekimas

Result? Advantage Nekima

He has three spells, she has no spells. One is a decent damage spell with some blasts, but kind of short range. One is ice pillars, which since you will no doubt have rasputina, might be redundant, and then he has decembers command, which can pull a bunch of frozen heart models he left behind with foul weather right back into B2b with him, and back into the protection of cover. this spell is awesome.

Result? Advantage snowstorm.

Overall I think Nekima is a bit bitter then snowy, their statlines are balanced, her weapon and attack is better, she can spend less of her activation using 1 actions to do her cool stuff, since its always active.

I think Nekima is worth a bit more then snowstorm, so at least 12 ss. Let's see how she matches up against 14ss.

The duet is almost as fast walking as nekima is charging, its only ht 2 so much easier to screen, its equally willful, its a much better caster, its much more defensive, but it has 4 less wounds.

Result? Duet. Its faster, more hideable, can cast spells, and has less wounds, but those are offset later.

the duets attack is only a 1 inch range, at the same cb as nekima, with a lower damage chart at 2/3/4. But its paired and gets a + to the damage flip.

Result? Draw. Lower range and lower damage, but paired, and enhanced mobility means the threat range probably balances out. So then im trading damage for likelyness to hit without cheating.

The duet cannot be charged, the duet is bulletproof 2 against shooting, and evasive 3 against blasts, It always gets a + to its defense and resist flips, It can go through friendly and enemy models, it becomes a ++ flip to avoid disengaging strikes. Irresistable is still a pretty sweet defensive ability, and nekima has alot of passives that boost friends and debuff enemies. Have to give it to nekima still

Result? Nekima

The duet is fast and subconscious, so it takes one more 0 action, and fast can be used on anything.

Result? Duet

The duet can heal, gain USE SOULSTONE, sword dance to make it so that it gets and attack AND a move, or dance apart to seperate. I'm sorry, but for a single models effectiveness, you cannot beat the duet. Nekima's 0's help the grow list and can do some splash damage, no comparison.

Result? Duet

The duet has a bunch of triggers, none of which are automatic (unless it casts a spell, which I can't consider for this). It can make you take a minus to resist flips, it can push 4 inches away (making its move rediculous), it can strip immunity to wp duels, or it can push 4 inches after casing one of two spells. The duets triggers are better in every regard.

Result? Duet

The duet can heal an enemy model to allow you to gain a soulstone if the model heals 2 wounds, which i've never done. It can do an aura damage against defense, which I have done, it can blind stuff, which after knocking the resist down can slow and paralyze, then letting the duet push 3 inches, so thats awesome. and it can add a mask to its CA and CB, so it auto triggers 3 of its 4 triggers.

Result? Duet

Overall, the duet is the better model then Nekima in my opinion. Nekima supports her friends much more then the duet, but the duet can turn the tide of a game completely on her own. Plus use soulstone is a huge gap of power.

So, Nekima is not worth 14 points, IMO. I think she falls in the 12-13 range. When she is with the grow list, and a lot of tots / young, I think she is worth 13. And if there is one instance where she can be worth 13, you need to keep her point cost there.

[Dolomyte]

holy crap, that was a long post.

[Cunning]

The fact she dies too easily is enough for me to never take her. Add in the terrible to transport sculpt and it all adds up to Nekima being terrible imo. And that was before the change to nephilim heart.

[Lucidicide]

Yes it was, but interesting!

[Dolomyte]

The fact she dies too easily is enough for me to never take her. Add in the terrible to transport sculpt and it all adds up to Nekima being terrible imo. And that was before the change to nephilim heart.

Do you agree, disagree, or are you indifferent with my comparison to snowstorm?

If he is 11 points, I see her needing to be higher then him, IMO.

And I think he is definitely worth 11 points.

[Lucidicide]

Do you agree, disagree, or are you indifferent with my comparison to snowstorm?

If he is 11 points, I see her needing to be higher then him, IMO.

And I think he is definitely worth 11 points.

I obviously can't speak to him, but I know that I've observed two types of players. The ones who don't like big expensive models because, although they add more skill, they end up being easier to take down than many cheaper models (and they get less AP, etc). Then there are the flip side of that.

For some people (and again, not speaking for anyone), Nekima isn't worth her points even if she is correctly priced.

[Dolomyte]

Also, for let's call her ND Nekima. could you hire this guy, or just pay freebooter to use the rights to this model. I bought it to travel and I just leave a picture of me holding nekima as proof I have the actual one.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Nekima > gremlins

She's a sold model, she's a more powerfull mature Nephilim that does more, I wouldn't use her in a crew of 30 or less, but how many 10+ models would you take in that many points

[Dolomyte]

Nekima > gremlins

She's a sold model, she's a more powerfull mature Nephilim that does more, I wouldn't use her in a crew of 30 or less, but how many 10+ models would you take in that many points

Ironically, I think I would take the duet and snowstorm at 30, for their respective crews. Your right though, not a whole lot else. I balk at 9ss models for some crews.

[osoi]

What if we also compare Ashes and Dust as well? Hes a 14ss model with support for a particular build. I dont have time at the moment to go into such and indepth breakdown but I think there will be similar comparisons and it will have Nekima fairly costed again at 13ss.

[Dolomyte]

What if we also compare Ashes and Dust as well? Hes a 14ss model with support for a particular build. I dont have time at the moment to go into such and indepth breakdown but I think there will be similar comparisons and it will have Nekima fairly costed again at 13ss.

I dont use unreleased models, so while I felt confident talking about the other three, someone else would need to do the A&D comparison, at least until he comes out and I get some games in with him

[Saint Norton]

Some models just need to be owned even if they are rarely played.

[Marcalla]

Just a few thoughts.

Nekima has flight which helps in her being able to get into position, Pass through is very nice, but flight means no getting dropped into acid pools, no being blocked by that nasty set of woods, or ice pillars when you want to re-position. And flyers can move over impassable terrain or fly up to kill that model hiding on the roof.

The use soulstones has to be activated which means that the Coryphee needs to activate before other models in the opposition crew that might threaten it (or have a dove nearby when it needs to make a prevention/healing flip out of sequence) Its still a top notch ability.

The Coryphee can't charge, it has to activate one of its 0's to get to move and attack. Nekima on the other hand can charge models up to 13 inches away thats over 1/3 of a standard table as opposed to the 10 inch reach of the Coryphee. And when Nekima does charge she gets :+fate to the damage flip. The flight also means that you have that 13" reach where as the coryphee has to move around/over obstacles and terrain.

[Dolomyte]

Just a few thoughts.

Nekima has flight which helps in her being able to get into position, Pass through is very nice, but flight means no getting dropped into acid pools, no being blocked by that nasty set of woods, or ice pillars when you want to re-position. And flyers can move over impassable terrain or fly up to kill that model hiding on the roof.

The use soulstones has to be activated which means that the Coryphee needs to activate before other models in the opposition crew that might threaten it (or have a dove nearby when it needs to make a prevention/healing flip out of sequence) Its still a top notch ability.

The Coryphee can't charge, it has to activate one of its 0's to get to move and attack. Nekima on the other hand can charge models up to 13 inches away thats over 1/3 of a standard table as opposed to the 10 inch reach of the Coryphee. And when Nekima does charge she gets :+fate to the damage flip. The flight also means that you have that 13" reach where as the coryphee has to move around/over obstacles and terrain.

True, but with the push on its melee attack it can tag another enemy model or a friendly model to get a 4 inch push plus its 9 inch move for a 13 inch move towards its real objective, at which it can take two more moves / attacks.

Nekima charging uses two actions to attack something up to 13 inches away, for those same two actions an engaged coryphee could attack the model its engaged with, push 4, walk 9 more, then walk 9 more and attack to attack another model 23 inches away. Don't get me wrong, im not knocking nekima's attack at all, its just not as good as the duet. Plus being paired the duet should hit easier, (and not worry about things like red tape, lucious, etc)

The coryphee does have to move around obstacles and terrain, but with their range and push it should not be too big of an issue.

[Chucklemonkey]

Some models just need to be owned even if they are rarely played.

True.

Whilst I do not play any masters that use Snowstorm or Duets I have to admit that whilst I really want to like Nekima and include her, I don't. Strangely enough I think the comparison that would be most relevant would actually be her against Lelu/Lilitu. At 14 points I think they offer far more on a practical level, although if you went through the full comparison process i'm not sure who would come out on top.

I may try that myself later (it's way too early for it at the mo).

[Cunning]

Do you agree, disagree, or are you indifferent with my comparison to snowstorm?

If he is 11 points, I see her needing to be higher then him, IMO.

And I think he is definitely worth 11 points.

I've not looked at Snowstorm properly so I can't really judge. For 1 point more though I can have the twins. I would always pick them over her.

[Q'iq'el]

I've expressed my opinions in the original thread about changes to her. I'll repeat them for the sake of the discussion here, but in, possibly, shorter form.

My opinions are based from using her excessively in a Lilith list, so they are mostly practical observation. I realize she may be much better on less cluttered tables with lots of empty space - in my games terrain was a major obstacle to using her to her full potential. Since I use recommended number of Terrain features, I'd consider she should be balanced for that, rather than flat & empty surface.

Since Gencon, I played her on Terraclips table too, which brings additional challenges to using the model in game.

For the sake of disclosure I've never used a FILTH list, I don't even own Pandora and my only Neverborn master is Lilith. I also dislike Growth lists (i.e. lists that kill Desperate Mercenaries in 1st turn to immediately Grow all the Tots into Young and Mature Nephilims), but I like the growing aspect of a Nephilim crew in regular play.

In my original design, Nekima was paired with Lelu and Lilitu and the crew would bring 3 Terror Tots as objective grabbers. Depending on needs, Nekima could Grow one of them in turn 1 but only to Young (1 Blood Counter from Blood Offering). After the combat was joined, if needed, other Tots would Grow and then Mature from the Blood Counters captured by Lilith, Nekima and Lelu/Lilitu.

In such a crew Nekima used to offer multiple buffs and facilitated many tricks, which made her quite a solid tactical choice:

A. Extra :masks to Ca used to help not only with Grow and much maligned DT/Lure, but also with Transposition (when cast by the Totem), Sprint, Bloody Mess Trigger and Impure Thoughts.

B. Combined with Black Blood Shaman's Taint Blood it increased Hooded Rider's damage and allowed for auto-trigger on Convict Gunslinger. This I considered the only way to field these two models with Lilith.

C. Extra :masks to Cb meant auto-flay not only for Nephilim, but also Lelu.

D. She buffs Growth and Mature spell casting to a level, where it is almost auto-cast, as long as the Counters are there.

From these multiple synergies, only buff to Sprint, Flay (YN and Tots only) and Grow/Mature remains.

In current state the optimal use for her talents seems to be to run her with large crew of Young Nephilim - superior damage output with ability to switch to Mature should some staying power be needed. Needless to say, most of the Book 2 and Book 3 models would have hard time fitting in any crew that takes her.

Let me post my observations on Dolomyte's points now:

Stats

Her Wk / CG is among the highest in the game, up there with Mature and the Riders. Cannot complain.

Ht is tied with the largest models in the game, which I'm fine with, too bad she's sculpted like that (see above)

This is very highly dependant on Terrain. Especially on Wyrd's recommended Terraclips terrain her size can be huge hindrance. And it's not just the size of the model, but simply 50mm base combined with Ht4. That's not something one can bypass by picking up alternate sculpt.

Her normal movement is 6", but the base itself is almost 2" wide. That means, whenever there is an obstacle she moves only through 4" of it, or she has to go around the object. On the top of that, she'll often have to use Defensive Stance and cut her movement short, which I mention further down the post (enough to say she has barely enough movement to hop over 1" fence in such condition, and only if she starts next to it). It's rather sad.

I know many players simplify their walk movement and go double distance for 2AP, but I don't believe it is the right way to play for a flying model. A flying model has to land after first walk and only then can take the next action (floating models, spirits, models with perch etc. would be superior here).

Since her primary role now is to be a melee fighter, it is worth mentioning how hard it is to fit her into a larger melee combat. Sure, her Rg and Ht mean she can reach over above the heads of shorter minions, but if the models aren't bunched up, she may end up attacking models she can reach rather than models you want her to attack.

Again, I'll add that on Terraclips table I ended up not able to reach any model at all at least once or twice per game, despite her being just 3~4" away from the "frontline". Walls, fences, street clutter (barrels etc.) and other models getting in the way do that to her and she has to activate first if I want my other Nephilim to get Nephilim Heart buffs (which means I cannot clean up the field for her most of the time).

Df is minion average, with no associated triggers.

This is her biggest weakness - connected with large size and Ht making it almost impossible to gain cover on many tables, she has to move around in Defensive Stance. That in turn cuts her movement short, makes it impossible to charge and allows for only 1 Strike.

Mature Nephilim suffer from the similar issues here, but one can get Mature Nephilim for 3SS, effectively.

Wd she is tied among the most in the game (second theoretically to snowstorm against non-magic crews)

Without the Wd count she wouldn't have any staying power at all. Paired with Lilitu, she could heal damage quickly, but now the pairing is detrimental to the crew as there are little other benefits from investing 27SS in the trio.

Her sword is 3 inch reach, with a CB 7, and a decent damage track 3/4/6.

One of the reasons why she looks better on the paper than performs on the table. Sure, she does get to hit other models, often with the only single Strike she manages to pull off (both General AP spent on movement or Defensive Stance and movement)

It is worth adding here, that she hardly ever charges into combat. For one, she wants to activate Defensive Stance most of the time. Secondly, she lacks Diving Attack and has no way to charge without LOS (among Nephilim only Lelu shares that issue with her, but Lilitu is there to Lure targets where he can charge them). Again this issue arises only on Terraclips tables as she can easily see above most obstacles on other tables.

Abilities

Black blood - her and every other nephelim

Blood Sense - her and the BBS, but not a 0, so nice

On the other hand it means you prefer your other Nephilim to kill models - that way you can get 2 Blood Counters instead of one. Sure, that is a freebie so no reason to complain, but that creates a pressure which makes some of her Triggers less useful (Bloody Fate).

Enraged by Insolence - Decent enough I guess, really meant for the grow list I suppose since it does not work if a terror tot is killed.

Terror Tots have their own ability giving the same effect, so what this provides is an extra movement when Young die. Very solid ability, especially that she needs every help she can get to catch her targets.

Flight - Nice

Considering her size, Float would be considerably better. In Defensive Stance she's as mobile as Lelu and doesn't fit anywhere anyway.

Irresistable - One of the better defensive abilities, Does not take HUGE flips for most other heavy hitters to bypass, and once you get past it she goes down pretty fast.

No argument here. It saved her several times in the games I played. At the same time if the opponent knows the model and has elite fighters in his crew, they are likely to send a minion which can beat Irresistible after her (still, it keeps the Attacks unreliable).

Nephilim Princess - Solid ability, who does not love a little regen

This is great for Nephilim of all sorts, because they lack any major healing. Even better now as the few crews that still use her will be composed from the Young and Tots mostly and they lack in survivability department.

Nurture Neph - Enables the grow list, amazing ability for that list

Growth list is still the only case where she truly shines. Except that I'd go with 5 Terror Tots and 2 Desperate Mercenaries now (drop Black Blood Shaman). You can get 5 Young Nephilim in Turn 1 and their damage line with auto-flay will be better than Mature Nephilim. Once they start getting wounds, some of them can Mature.

Regen 1 - Not bad

Too little to balance the sort of damage she often takes. With Lilitu Healing it was adding up to a decent heal - at the very least one could restore the Wd lost to Blood Offering in turn 1.

Terrible Beauty : Amazing aura, -2 wp is clutch against things that attack willpower.

Huh?

Not as amazing as it may seem for her intended crews. It works only in duels where the enemy models are Defenders. Considering we're speaking Growth list, that means some help with Transposition and Love.

Except for the fact you don't need to Transposition enemy models that are 6" from Nekima.

I suppose it is a truly great ability for Zoraida crews and Zoraida can field a Growth list too - she always worked well with Nephilim. Such lists are not very common though.

Neverborn G-sword - Decent ability, you can always trigger something, not always the best thing, but something. + to damage flips is clutch.

to damage flips is actually great. On masters I rate it higher than Paired weapons. On Nekima it is a bit worse, since she can't burn Soulstones to beat to hit, but in most cases it still means she doesn't care about total as much and doesn't have to cheat as often.

Ability to choose your suit on the other hand looks better than it performs. In practice you will want to Trigger Throw Aside in almost every combat, using :rams or :masks suit (to match the card). If you cheat with a high card, it will likely be a :rams card (other Nephilim have no use for it), so you'll choose :masks for the suit. Same for Bloody Fate.

+1 Instinct, Melee expert - Solid

Instinctual is crucial for her, as one of her (0)s is always used to cast Nephilim Heart. As for Melee Expert, she also wouldn't function without it - since you want to spend 1 action on Defensive Stance and 1 on Walk, that is your only way to get the Strike in. When you feel like winning and risking it, you can get a Charge and an extra Strike which is very good.

All in all, it isn't as much help for her as it is for Lelu or Young Nephilim, for example. Mature Nephilim are in similar position to her. I'd consider these abilities (especially Melee Expert) "free" in her budged, as without those she simply doesn't work most of the time.

Growth Spurt - Give a young, terror tot, or Lelu flight, everyone else has float or flight already, I think.

Lelu and Young already have Flight. The only setup where it shines now is a flying sprinting Tot Nephilim. Insane ability to grab objectives Turn 1, especially that she makes them Sprint up to 30" (if you can cheat the third :masks twice) too.

If she's paired with Black Blood Shaman you can also give Flight to Hooded Rider (have to turn him Nephilim first with Taint Blood) but I don't think such a costly combo is worth it anymore (as she doesn't buff his damage anymore).

Neph Heart - +M to tots and young, Giving it to their Ca is good for tots for those 15 inch sprints and grows, nothing for the young. Giving it to WP or DF is just stupid, since neither of those has triggers that can use it, maybe a unique or subbreed of tots and youngs in the future? Give it to the CB for AUTO FLAY!!!, Making tots hit harder then lelu for probably half the cost

What can I say. It used to be THE GREAT ENABLER - ability that brought Book-2 style synergies to Lilith crews. From Lelu and Lilitu, through Black Blood Shaman, Convict Gunslinger, Hooded Rider and even Book 3's Tuco, all seemed like great models to bring with her.

Now Young Nephilim is where it's at. Terror Tots for Growth and Sprint, Young for RAW damage and extra movement for her.

Spill black blood - Good desperation ability, also pretty good at clearing out swarms of low wound models near one of your own (IE alps)

Not once had I an occasion to use it, but I consider it a decent option.

Triggers

Bloody Fate - Card draw, even with a discard, is nice.

Is happening whenever she flips :masks and Throw Aside is impossible. In my experience it is a nice bonus to exchange some bad Control Hands, if I get lucky, but she hardly ever gets to keep the card (unlike Lilith with the same Trigger). Simply because she goes first and softens up the targets for Young Nephilim or Lilith, who get the kill (and thus generate 2 Blood counters).

I'd never intentionally cheat to get this Trigger, which says a lot, especially that it is her second best.

Throw aside - Meh, its nice if your near a building or on one maybe, but pretty situational

On the CONTRARY! This is her absolutely best trigger there is. Not only does it use :rams, for which there is no competition in her crew, but it is worded very nicely:

- It is push (not away or directly away), so you choose the path freely.

- It is "up to" 3", so you can choose the distance freely

- It doesn't cancel damage (she's the beat stick, remember?)

What you do with it is to push the target so that she stays out of its melee range, but the target remains in her 3" reach (typically 2"+ away from her base).

That in turn:

- Keeps the model from charging her.

- Keeps the model from making ranged strikes.

- Forces the model to take Walk action before it can Strike her in melee.

- Makes it difficult for the opponent to move the model away, as she still gets her Disengaging Strike.

We've just discussed how lackluster her survivability is, right? That's her chief defensive ability, right after Defensive Stance.

I try to get it with every Strike she makes, but there are situations (crowded combat, cornered models etc) where the push isn't possible.

Meat for the young - Again, very situational, I'm pretty sure I would always rather take the damage

100% agree here. Probably her worst Trigger too, because if the Nephilim is within 6" from her, it likely has her target in its charge range anyway (and it doesn't need LoS). If it didn't cancel damage, it would be alternative to Throw Away when Nephilim are nearby, but as is it is useless.

Rip in half - Situational. Can be amazing, can be worthless.

It's been pointed out to me this is a Morale Duel, not Terryfying check. That means she can use it against Nightmares and Soulless models. Constructs and Undead are still immune, so it remains situational. I'd consider it her 3rd Trigger in quality order and I used it perhaps twice in last few months.

I'll just add that while on the paper she looks like she can get a Trigger out of her every strike, she really cares only for :masks and :rams as only these cards give her useful triggers. It gives her a considerably higher chance to get the right trigger off (Throw Aside) than other models get, but it isn't working as reliably as one would believe at first glance. It chiefly means Neverborn have a use for high :rams in their Control Hand if she is around.

I'll skip your SS cost comparison for now, as I need more time to consider it. I hope I made you reconsider some of your evaluations and adjust her "true" SS value accordingly.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

Just when i though I was tired of hearing how OP Neverborn was

[Q'iq'el]

The real problem with her SS cost is that it compares to Mature Nephilim. She really is a Mature Nephilim+ (even +++), so it seems like 11~12 would make it, but here's the catch: In book 1 times I used to bring one or two Young Nephilim to get Mature quick. That means 6SS effective cost (8SS if I had to use Blood from Stone to get the second Blood Counter). If one was winning and getting enough Blood Counters, one could get the Mature for the equivalent of 3SS. One still can get it that cheaply with the Growth list now (though it requires Nekima to work).

On the paper Mature Nephilim is worth more than its actual in-game price. That pushes Nekima's SS cost up. I'd be happy if she got as cheap as 10SS now, though, or if some of her other abilities got buffed. At 13SS I'd like to see 8" walk or 6" walk with Float (as long as she has to go into Defensive Stance most of the time, her movement would still be cut by 2" from the nominal value), to hit (while keeping to damage) on her Nephilim sword and possibly some improvement to Meat for the Young Trigger (make all Nephilim in range move towards the target rather than push the target, perhaps?).

Edited October 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

Or smell fear, or is too OP as I think it would

[Calmdown]

Snowstorm is not worth his 11 points; you simply can't have a model that expensive with 2ap. If one of his movement abilities was a (0) he'd be fine. Don't get me wrong, he brings a lot to the table, but not 11 points to the table.

Nekima I think could stand to be a point cheaper. She's good and does a lot, but expensive models are generally not that great in Malifaux as a rule.

[Alviaran]

Any idea how tall that Freebooter mini really is? I like that better than Nekima's sculpt and it pretty much has all of the same details. Wings, big sword, horns, hooves, no clothing worth mentioning, etc. I'd prefer to use that and just break out Nekima if someone says something.

[Dolomyte]

Any idea how tall that Freebooter mini really is? I like that better than Nekima's sculpt and it pretty much has all of the same details. Wings, big sword, horns, hooves, no clothing worth mentioning, etc. I'd prefer to use that and just break out Nekima if someone says something.

My LGS could not order freebooter, so I got it from the warstore for I think 20$. I ended up with free shipping since I bought some foam too.

[Dolomyte]

@Q and Calmdown

You both make some valid points. I think in my assessment I felt nekima was better then snowstorm, even with your points, I still think I like her more then him. Q you said you needed to think about that, and please do, I'd like your opinion. Calmdown you dislike snowstorms cost because he only has 2 ap (which is understandable)

I personally think snowstorm is fully worth the 11ss he costs. He enables a rasputina crew to be fast, and I pretty much keep him as melee buffer for raspy. With soft cover there are not a ton of things that will kill her without at least coming into blast range once. If his one movement ability was a 0 it might be an easier sell at 11ss, but to me he is still worth it.

Maybe another question is "Is she worth 13ss in a grow list?"

If the answer to that is yes. "Can you really cost her at 12, or 11, if in that one list she is worth 13?"

Its not fair to people who want to use her and not play the grow list, but I think the answer the second question is no. a Model should be costed with its ideal situation in mind.

[Mentat_Canis]

I read through this tread and I don't know if I can agree with the original opinion, She is great with a good damage output and the hidden amazing 0 that lets her give out wounds within 3 inches. Yes with the change now you will never play her with less then 2-3 Terror tots and a desperate merc so it does change how she plays because I always liked giving flay to Lelu and I was really excited about Tuco with her but now those have changed.

I still think for her 13ss is not that over as a ss cost for one of the best melee lines in the game, its the same a lilith sans use soulstone and more triggers yes only 2 of them are worth is most times. If she was 12 I don't think anyone would complain. Her biggest weakness is that she is Def 4 so is always hopeful on irresistible. I really wish she had Terrifying because its a pain that she has to make the check vs other Terrifying models.

She is loads better the SS but like Calmdown I think he is overcosted by at least one unless you give him a nimble or something. Yes he can be hard to kill but thats the only thing going for him because is damage output is terrible.

The Duet I see brought up here is hard to match to these 2 because they are a different beast because there damage output is actually relatively low but once in duet form they just don't die and have such great mobility. The only real way to kill them is get a master into them before they activate. They might be one of the most spot on costs of a model in the game in my opinion.

But all in all I am happy with Nekima at 13 and she is more a grow model but the ability to take 3 Terror tots and make them some of the scariest models in the game is just awesome. If she was 12 I think it would be nice for the math 13 is just an odd prime number.