Walking Away from the table... am I the only one that considers this?

[Dolomyte]

Maybe I missed it but was it a Dreamer/Alp crew that won the tournaments at Gencon? Is this team dominating any of the big tournaments?

the master of malifaux tournie at gencon broke down as such

From Bill of Gamer's Lounge:

Total tourney breakdown: 10 neverborn, 7 outcast, 6 resurrectionist, 4 arcanist, 3 guild

final tables 4 neverborn. Standings 1. NB 2. NB 3. Outcast. Top 8 was 4 nb, 3 outcast, 1 res

The neverborn winner, bunniegodd (sp?) used the dreamer in 3 of his 4 matches, zoraida in the other. I believe. He would have to clarify his lists if he wanted.

But yes, the dreamer does very very well in tournaments.

[Justin]

If something's annoying you that much because you think it's OP, you have three options:

1) Don't play against it (not an option in tournament play)

2) Accept that it's better, and learn how best to deal with it

3) Play it yourself

Walking away is a pointless exercise and gets you nowhere.

Personally I've chosen 3) and switched to Neverborn. Hopefully when I'm bored with Neverborn, I will have also achieved a large part of 2) and be a better player for it.

This man speaks wisely.

[Dolomyte]

This man speaks wisely.

its true, we could all play neverborn and the problem would be non-existant.

[Justin]

its true, we could all play neverborn and the problem would be non-existant.

That's assuming you think that the game is really that far off. Which I, and clearly others, do not.

But I particularly liked that post because he never really mentioned neverborn or the dreamer in the beginning. He said, "If something really bothers you that much, here are your options..."

It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. It doesn't matter what you think is OP. Fun is something you have, no matter what anyone else thinks of the game. And if you're failing to have it, those are the options.

[Dark Alleycat]

The only problem with the above mentioned example is your banking on the opponent making a mistake by putting a alp in melee range of a executioner. Chances are in a game against a "good" opponent there are only two models ever that would get close to him (chompy taking him out or coppelious paralizing him before he gets killed to counteract exe's s2d.

Well then that would mean that the alp bomb would be sitting there doing nothing. If your dealing with the Alp bomb you have basically two choices,keep your guys together and make him drop it on you and dismantle it,or leave your models spread out and let him kill them with chompy. Guess which one is actually feasible.

And if Chompy made the mistake of getting close to the executioner,that slow to die would really mess him up. A good dreamer player would avoid slow to die models like the plague because those stand a pretty good chance to rip them apart.

[Wulfen]

Well then that would mean that the alp bomb would be sitting there doing nothing. If your dealing with the Alp bomb you have basically two choices,keep your guys together and make him drop it on you and dismantle it,or leave your models spread out and let him kill them with chompy. Guess which one is actually feasible.

And if Chompy made the mistake of getting close to the executioner,that slow to die would really mess him up. A good dreamer player would avoid slow to die models like the plague because those stand a pretty good chance to rip them apart.

I've never seen an Alp Bomb that sat and did nothing. A smart Dreamer player will ignore the Executioner completely, because he can.

[Wulfen]

As to the OP, I'm sorry to say: we've had locals who have said that if they see any more Dreamer put on the table, they'll just shake the guy's hand and say, "Good game."

I wish I was joking.

[Dark Alleycat]

I've never seen an Alp Bomb that sat and did nothing. A smart Dreamer player will ignore the Executioner completely, because he can.

in favor of doing what? trying to kill the models sitting by the executioner and thus bringing them directly into its melee range? Now he can try and kill the executioner with Chompy,who will take a slow to die hit from the executioner. And then the dreamer has 7 inchs of run away space. And the rest of your crew is just hanging out ready to hand said little kid his one way ticket to destruction.

If he doesn't bring the alp bomb after the cluster of models,then it is just sitting there doing nothing but wasting points. And if he ignores that clump of models,then the whole danger of the alp bomb is completely negated,and your opponent is down however many points he spent on alps in trying to stop you.

But hey...if walking away is easier for you then figuring out how to beat it,then thats your choice and you are certainly entitled to do it. Just means more people will be convinced of the Dreamer's invulnerability and will be horribly surprised when they are proven wrong.

[CRC]

I don't want anyone to walk away from the table, I understand there are matchups right now that just are not fun to play against, and really not fun to play.

When it comes to a tournaments I have changed my style so that against arcanists, guild, ressers, and outcasts I build for the strategy. against neverborn you build a third of your list for the lure bomb, a third for the alp bomb, and a third for the strategy.

If you post what your playing at, what your using, and what you have available. I'll sit on these forums all night trying to help you have fun with it (even if that fun is solely seeing the look on your opponents face when he cheese list fails)

But don't walk away from the table, to me its like the south park / family guy episode. once an episode gets pulled, the show starts to die.

I'm not him, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say. I play at 35 points, and I bring Arcanists. I have Ramos, Colette, and all the trappings. If it's worth it, I'd consider getting yet more stuff, but not switching factions.

What should the 1/3 vs Lure, and 1/3 vs Alps be? (I can probably figure out the 1/3 vs strat)

[Cunning]

I personally will never walk away from the table. Every game is a learning experience. In fact currently I will actively try and find supposedly tier 1 masters or masters I've never played to play against. So Dreamer, Hamelin, Collette, Pandora etc(i've had more than enough experience against Kirai and I think I know what I need to do to hamper her sufficiently).

Okay I play Neverborn myself but Lilith is apparently the worst of the neverborn masters but i like her play style so even though I do have other masters I will use her 75% of the time.

Out of the 5 games I've had against the dreamer I've won 1 but that was the only time I was severely alp bombed. I have never had much of a problem with alps themselves, the main problem I have is with Chompy himself, his range of influence is insane and can confortably kill 2 models a turn if they are close to each other.

You need your models to close on the dreamer as fast as possible to cause any sort of threat which can be a struggle for most crews. I did see a self confessed 'bad player' today draw with the dreamer with Mc Mourning. He actually tabled the dreamer completely. Hats off to him.

Anyway I'm waffling but the point is every game is a learning experience, even if a master/list is nigh impossible to beat if the cards are fair to both of you, it'll still teach you about your list and hopefully make you a better player.

[Dark Alleycat]

Well,with Ramos I would consider the Electrical creation to deal with alps. Really anything that blows up and does 2-3 damage will thin out the alps real quick. If you are facing any model that is focused completely on having the enemy right next to them,you field models that he doesn't want next to him. For collette I would start chucking birds at them,either doing magicians duel or exploding them. You can also use your mannequin's to screen your models from Alps,since they cant do a thing to them. Object 3 means the first 3 damage from any source is completely ignored. Makes it better then armor.

I would disagree with Dolomyte on one thing. in my opinion you should generally find ways to make your core models able to take on almost any situation.

And the dreamer has a very big weakness if you can take out his daydreams. Those are the key to his mobility. Also if you have a way to mess up spells,you can get some great expressions. "What do you mean the spell I need to cast to get my nightmares out has a double negative twist?...I cant Cheat that"

Edited September 14, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[Therapist]

I like playing against the dreamer. Im in training right now and Im getting more of his moves down. Soon I will be ready and I will strike. For every soul-crushing defeat delivered by dreamer players I shall deliver one back to them.

I run Perdita when i want to be competetive and I hate using the papa bomb even then but if someone drops the dreamer on the table the gloves come off. I want to try out a Sonia list with 8 witchlings (35ss) and see how that flies.

Anyway, the point is i have fun crushing cheesy lists. Maybe its just me but i love it.

[edonil]

I've done it in 40k, although not in Warmachine (flat out quit a match). Usually it came down to the player and not the list, although I'm not looking forward to when Dreamer becomes a part of our young meta. I've already told a few people that if the Alp bomb starts showing up at events I'm running, I'll be kindly, but firmly, requesting another list in the next event. My issue with the Alp bomb is that it removes the other person's ability to play the game...and I don't want to see that.

[paradox]

This is how I feel about Hamelin. I refuse to play against it.

I have not yet faced Dreamer/alps.

[poulpox]

I play Dreamer, not because he's hard but I always loved the style/fluff of him. I never used an Alp bomb (simply because I won't buy more than 3 Alps and I don't particularly like them much), however my opponents have played me with various attitude. One of them played me twice and simply concluded Dreamer is just not fair and unbeatable. Other played more and took the time to try various things, sometimes they win, sometimes I do, but in the end we have fun games and both sides feel there was a challenge.

I think having to accept that facing the Dreamer means 1 or 2 models will be killed very early in the game, is a great turn off for some, but if you manage to go past it and think about schemes and strats, and killing those daydreams, you will see this is not the end of the (Malifaux) world.

Again I am not talking about Alp bombs since I don't play it, however if I was to face Alp bombs I'd consider it a challenge to beat and wouldn't give up till those pests are done with!

Sometimes I feel people's despair is contagious on the web and some players end up giving up before even trying just because "they said it on the web", and peer pressure becomes an obstacle to perseverance, trial and error and overcoming one's difficulties. Unfortunately these are necessary for a full gaming experience.

I think we ought to cultivate support and perseverance ("I have that crew/faction, and I find the Dreamer hard, please help me to beat him!") rather than pessimism and bitterness ("This is impossible, and I'm giving up!"), which makes Dreamer's opponents flee and Dreamer players feel bad for liking that particular crew. Peer pressure is bad when it doesn't support positive enterprise!

Mr Smigs, you CAN beat the Alp bomb, and you WILL

[Adran]

Well,with Ramos I would consider the Electrical creation to deal with alps. Really anything that blows up and does 2-3 damage will thin out the alps real quick. If you are facing any model that is focused completely on having the enemy right next to them,you field models that he doesn't want next to him. For collette I would start chucking birds at them,either doing magicians duel or exploding them. You can also use your mannequin's to screen your models from Alps,since they cant do a thing to them. Object 3 means the first 3 damage from any source is completely ignored. Makes it better then armor.

Whilst I agree with the senrtement, you've not got Object right. It reduces wounds recieved down to a minimum of 1. So it is actually useless against alps.

A colette crew that is within her willpower bubble will do well at not getting slow. You'll take a few wounds mopping up models, but magicians duel from colette and doves will be pretty good, and sword dancing Cassandra and a duet will kill alps fairly quickly. Whilst the first walk might cost you some wounds, the strikes won't, and you should be able to start all subsequent walks outside of alp damage.

Breathe fire and Orchestral cresendo will also make a mess of alps grouped too closely together.

[sephiroa]

i never played against alps, but to get the wounds they need to be within 3", so pulses acctually can't do notin,, as most explosive pulses will only get 2"

otherwise it will be easy to kill, let them try to kill my golem or some gamins

[Dolomyte]

i never played against alps, but to get the wounds they need to be within 3", so pulses acctually can't do notin,, as most explosive pulses will only get 2"

otherwise it will be easy to kill, let them try to kill my golem or some gamins

actually they do pretty terrible against rasputina. its one of the worst matchups for the alp bomb. they need be within 3 inches, but usually to fit them all in they need to be closer then that.

[011121]

Again I am not talking about Alp bombs since I don't play it, however if I was to face Alp bombs I'd consider it a challenge to beat and wouldn't give up till those pests are done with!

At the same time, I think you have to agree this is reasonable, not everyone plays to be insanely challenged. A lot of people play to have fun and want a reasonable chance to win with a decent list and some practice. It's much the same with video games. Some people thrive on challenge and enjoy games where you try 20 times to succeed once. And some people just find that an insanely irritating use of their precious relaxation time.

It's not that one view is right and the other wrong but for those who like an uphill slog they can always arrange a match where things are stacked against them. Consequently the game in general should be as balanced as possible to give those of us who just want fun a chance to have that.

[Dolomyte]

At the same time, I think you have to agree this is reasonable, not everyone plays to be insanely challenged. A lot of people play to have fun and want a reasonable chance to win with a decent list and some practice. It's much the same with video games. Some people thrive on challenge and enjoy games where you try 20 times to succeed once. And some people just find that an insanely irritating use of their precious relaxation time.

It's not that one view is right and the other wrong but for those who like an uphill slog they can always arrange a match where things are stacked against them. Consequently the game in general should be as balanced as possible to give those of us who just want fun a chance to have that.

Demon's souls for the PS3 is a great example of that. I hated that game about 30 minutes into it, but I had to spend sixty or so hours to beat it on principle. It was not fun for me, it was a matter of principle. I might pass on the sequal just to avoid that torture again

[IronChief]

At the same time, I think you have to agree this is reasonable, not everyone plays to be insanely challenged. A lot of people play to have fun and want a reasonable chance to win with a decent list and some practice.

Exactly this.

I would prefer a game that you can bring the master of your choice with a well thought out list and have fun, win or lose, against all other lists.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree, and while I do agree that as a whole the faction vs. faction balance arguments used to hold a lot more traction with me I'm not certain it does anymore. I know that Malifaux isn't balanced Master Vs. Master and frankly I was ok with that initially. If one master isn't good at something bring one that is. The problem is the more I look at certain Masters, and not just in NB, the more I find that my opinion is Wyrd dropped the ball a little bit when they made masters what were really good at everything. The Dreamer and Kirai come to mind in that there really isn't any scheme or strat they are bad at.

[Ebonstar]

Along the same vein as playing for fun, what does taking an Alp bomb against a stranger/newbie say about that person you're about to play? Would you have gotten an enjoyable experience from the same player if they went with another list?

(fill in your own answer above).

For me- if it was someone I didn't know who did that- I'd try to be courteous but then let him just tear up my crew, unless I really felt like a challenge that day (like if the guy warned me ahead of time- I might say "Okay let's take a real challenge" while if he just plopped it down and smiled I'd let the [expletive] roll on for his easy W).

If it was a tournament, I'd just have to accept the fact that this person is playing highly competitively...it's a tournament and people will go to tournies and do everything humanly (weakly IMO, but who am I to judge) possible to get that W...you know, page 5'ers and all...

Chances are- if you went into a game looking for a fun and enjoyable game and someone plops that down against you, their goal for the game isn't the same as yours. So I wouldn't blame anyone who would walk away from that situation. Hobby time is valuable, and hard to come by. Spend your hobby time enjoying your hobby.

[Hatchethead]

Book 2 masters (with the exception of Hoffman) exist on a different competitive plane than those from the Book 1, with a few notable exceptions (Pandora, Viks, Perdita maybe). Henchman aside - though Collodi and Von Schill are very scary in their own right - the Dreamer, Kirai, Hamelin and Colette all represent a superior breed of master. I don't want to turn this into a Book 2 versus Book 1 argument, but it's hard to deny that the power curve was shattered when Book 2 dropped. Book 1 presented a range of relatively balanced masters (relatively), Book 2 bypassed power creep in favor of power blitzkrieg. I can't imagine it was intentional. I really do hope it is somehow rectified with a concentrated, dedicated Book 2 v2 reevaluation.

That said, I still love the game ... I just wish Book 2 masters weren't so unashamedly dominant, both competitively and casually. It's difficult to explain the current balance landscape to new and potential players without sounding like a blatant apologist. I still do, but I'm honest, and I tend to include the summation, "Wyrd will do right, they always have in the past and I have faith. They listen to their players, admit mistakes and have shown a remarkable willingness to introduce changes based on community feedback. It's what makes Wyrd such a great company, and Malifaux such an excellent game." I don't say this just to sell the game as my group's officially unofficial pseudo-wannabe-Henchman. I actually believe it.

[TroyPerez]

I think the original poster issue is the one I have as well. There are some builds that work well against everything! Alp Bomb for one. Or even the lure spam, not sure on that one since I havn't looked into it as much. Why should a faction be allowed to have a build that is universally good when everyone else is forced to adjust to every other master in order to compete?