Theory for debate

[Adran]

Having read these forums for a couple of years now, I'm sure we were having very similar discussions a year ago with regards to Perdita and Pandora crews.

Over the past year the alp bomb has cropped up several times, as have stiched and hamelin and the Chain lure when people are discussing problems they see with the game.

I don't really use any of the tactics, but have faced them on occasions, so my views are a mix of emperical and theory.

Whilst alps look scariest on paper with large numbers, I have found playing against them its at the mid range (2-4) when backed up with other good models that they cause the most problems for me to handle.

And its only in conjunction with the dreamer that they are considered broken. I know they have been used with sucess with othr neverborne masters, but people don't view them as trouble then.

Stiched had what seemed to be the scarest tactic removed from them before they were relesed, and recent trouble seems to be on the vps people can't get from them rather than the actual effect on the game play.

The auto trigger chain lure upto 6 times a turn is hard, and tough to handle. Even when you look at the investment put into the crew to achieve it. Whilst most people can design crews to handle it, they don't know what they are facing.

Manniquin replacement has about a 30-50% chance of outright removing an enemy model from the game. Colette crews can cast it 5 times a turn if you really want. There aren't reagular outcrys as to the brokenness of this. I'm not sure if this is seen as a less troublesome mechanic, or that players expect to face this problem everytime they face Arcanists rather than have the 3 different problems and not knowing which one they face if they are against neverborne.

It uised to be the big strength of the guild that pretty much every model can go with every master and be used at close to maximum capacity.

Now neverborne are in a similar situation and they have some very good models for most situations.

A recent forum push has been made to make the most of the "universally aclaimed worst master" Marcus. He is now reagually finishign in the top 3 in tournements. I have always found Marcus a good master to use with his wide range of modles to choose from. Now othes are going against the percieved internet wisdom and seeing that he can beat opponents.

Is this a case of people beliving the internet hype, and not putting the time in to face him, or is it he is just that bit more complecated, and it has taken this long for people to learn how to play him well?

Sure, I don't think the game is perfectly balenced. There are certain Advantages to some masters/factions. Crews like the dreamer, Hamelin and Colette force your opponent to play the game your way rather than their way which make them seem much harder as what you would normally do to win just doesn't work. I don't think that they are unbeatable, but you do need to be able to know how to face them. Neverborne currently seem to have several of the toughest tactics around and you don't know which you'll have to face until after you've picked your crew.

What I am worried is that almost all of the typically seen "broken" things are due to the combination of several models, and taken seperatly they aren't a huge problem. Discussions had here into the chain lure couldn't work out if it was the free attack, the double take trigger, or the nephelim heart, or even being able to cast Lure with a model in base to base with you. Changing any one of these abilities will have some big effects on the model outside of this specific combination.

Possibly we should wait and see what is the new "broken" after book 3 has been out a little while.

And Q'iq'el has made an awesome terraclips set up, it looks great

[Calmdown]

I think a lot of perceived issues with many masters come from people trying to make fluffy lists.

People always taking beasts with Marcus.

People always taking constructs with Ramos.

People sticking to December models with Rasputina.

People sticking to Death Marshals with Lady Justice.

And so on.

But also look at some strong masters where many people limit themselves by fluff:

People taking only Spirits with Kirai

People taking only Nightmares with Dreamer

People taking a lot of woes with Pandora

And finally:

People not taking Mercenaries in many lists, when Mercs are often the best choice (Desperate Merc and Von Schill, I'm looking at you).

I dont think this is for fluff reasons a lot of the time; I think it's just because a lot of players get it instantly stuck in their head that all this crew synergy is better than what they might gain by taking other stuff. It's an easy mistake to make, or alternatively, trap to be lured into.

But this is nothing to do with the balance arguments. It may colour the issue for those that run said lists cited above, but honestly when I talk about imbalance, I'm talking about an imbalance between two good players playing the best possible lists to the best of their ability. Of course if you talking about a top player playing any list and a bad player playing whatever, the balance issue is moot. Or if we talk about a bad player running Dreamer and a great player running Lady Justice, you might see no balance issue.

The problem that Malifaux has is that at a top level, imbalance exists, and it is further exasperated when good players running top masters play lesser players running lesser masters. Ask any average player running x random lists what it feels like to play against a good player running Dreamer for evidence.

[Calmdown]

This is the takeaway from this thread.

Also, Sue is the new broken. He breaks all previous records of awesomeness.

Convict Gunslinger+Sue+Tuco = the ranged team that Guild wish they had.

Although CGS+Sue+Santiago is close.

[Q'iq'el]

Manniquin replacement has about a 30-50% chance of outright removing an enemy model from the game. Colette crews can cast it 5 times a turn if you really want. There aren't reagular outcrys as to the brokenness of this. I'm not sure if this is seen as a less troublesome mechanic, or that players expect to face this problem everytime they face Arcanists rather than have the 3 different problems and not knowing which one they face if they are against neverborne.

<cut>

And Q'iq'el has made an awesome terraclips set up, it looks great

Thanks!

Excellent points in the entire post, I'll just comment on the Showgirls related part quoted above.

The reason why this particular Trigger isn't vilified, I feel, is the lack of reliability and the fact it is somewhat hard to use.

I'm not sure how you arrived at 5 casts per turn - even if Casandra copies Disappearing Act, she won't copy the Trigger and it's all about the Trigger. Colette could cast the spell 4 times a turn, if she Reactivated, but then she wouldn't be doing anything else... and she needs to evacuate wounded Showgirls, drop in to cast Magician's Duel, make new Soulstones and replace the Doves (not necessarily all at once and at the same time). In the end Disappearing Act is something used either as an afterthought, or to disarm very specific combos (disappear Nekima, and Lilitu won't get her :masks... or even if she got them already, there will be no debuff to Wp from Nekima or an extra Blood Counter for her). That's for "hard to use".

Lack of reliability kicks in at 3x :tomes requirement for the Trigger. Even though Colette does get on the Soulstone she discards and it makes sense to Soulstone a Disappearing Act on something big and bad, the pulling it off with 3 masks isn't guaranteed. And that means 2 SS used whether you succeed at getting the trigger or fail.

Discharging Soulstone, coupled with extra :masks to Ca, guarantee Sleigh of Hand and either make you recover a Soulstone or even gain an extra one.

I'm not saying the later option is better in every case, but when one can choose (i.e. no need to disappear anything important), a competitive player would choose lesser, but more reliable gain.

Last but not least, if you don't have spare Mannequins, as far as I understand, the Trigger won't work. This reasoning is mostly based on rulings by Marshals on other subjects. For example Rathnard had come up with idea of sacrificing Coryphée through Alpha (you try to summon duet or split it, you need to be able to summon models, you can't summon with controlled model, so they get sacrificed, but nothing appears in their place). It's been ruled, IIRC, that if you cannot attempt a summon you just cannot do it (with assumption that if one of the effects fails, all the effects fail, If I remember correctly).

So to summon a new Mannequin, you need to have that Mannequin, or the summon will fail. If the summon fails, then other effects of the spell also fail, and other effects include sacrificing the enemy model. So the entire Trigger becomes meaningless.

I may be completely off the mark here, as I figured it myself with no feedback from other Showgirl players, but with so many things stacked against that seemingly powerful ability, there's no wonder it almost never sees the light of day.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Adran]

Doh, forgot Cassandra doesn't get the trigger.

I have only used it against otherwise problematic models at the end of the game (Manniquin Jack Daw is so nice) but that doesn't stop it being a possibility.

You're right there are plenty of other things for Colette to do. I was bringing it up as an ability that when it was first seen was though to be far too powerful by (several of) the community, but in practise doesn't seem to cause problems.

In unrelated matter

I thought Sue doesn't work with the Convict Gunslinger.

[Q'iq'el]

You're right there are plenty of other things for Colette to do. I was bringing it up as an ability that when it was first seen was though to be far too powerful by (several of) the community, but in practise doesn't seem to cause problems.

I agree here completely. It is a great example. I feel the reason for that lies in the unreliability - that's why I mentioned it. Abilities that work randomly are often ignored by the competitive players as they can't rely on them winning the game.

I find I can use this trigger more or less once per game, if I take only one Performer. I own only two Mannequin minis and if I deploy them both, they tend to survive entire game (nobody targets Mannequins it seems! ).

In unrelated matter

I thought Sue doesn't work with the Convict Gunslinger.

The Man in Black - makes him unusable for many crews, including most popular Neverborn builds [deleting the Guild. Not sure why I thought the Executioner and Nino are ruthless]

I feel he's going to play for my Showgirls though... and he won't refuse Nicodem a drink, I think.

I like what he brings to Colette's crews:

- Exchange his wounds for cards, to make more soulstones with Colette. (or to replenish the Hand after turning bad cards into Soulstones)

- A Wp buff which stacks with Colette's own - either to spread it around the crew, or to provide a truly willful core.

- Thread the line not only protects Coryphée Duet from Obey, but also from Incite & Pacify. 8":aura is pretty long range, as far as auras go.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

Interestingly enough, Sue dislikes both Gunslinger and Hans, but has no problem with Killjoy. Heh.

[jmp_mydog]

(For interest of disclosure: I worked for games workshop, and not as a cashier at a hobby center)

That explains so much ....

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think we can also agree that most of us that see issues, we can and have discussed our impressions what those issues are, are only bringing them up because we want the game to be better.

I know from my experience that's why I post.

=D

[jengland]

Seconded! I think we need to have a peaceable sit down with some canned fruit.

There's no doubt a problem and discussing the matter is the only way that Wyrd will now our views. I think they might take a page out of the privateer press playbook and let the players field test any changes. For those of you unfamiliar with how this went down when privateer decided to improve warmachine they put out field test rules for the players then listened to feedback from the players about what needed to be done. It was an unprecedented move and to be honest made warmachine mkII a much improved version.

The thing that's really killing me is that we're even at each other's throats.

Qi, Lalo, there's no animosity between us, and yet we're verge of squabbling over an attempt to improve Malifaux. Something everyone in this thread no doubt wants.

[Calmdown]

Maybe we should start a focus group about it.

And use some real-time chat instead of forum-based chat that makes everyone come across badly and hate eachother.

At worst we spend some time discussing Malifaux and come up with some ideas that get ignored. At best we do something useful.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Glad to see this thread straightened out and everyone is keeping a level head. There is much to be discussed in this area.

That said, Swingjunkie I see you are newish to the community and are most likely newish to the game, so let me give you some friendly advise. We try to be a friendly group here and making accusations that the perceived issue is other players lack of experience and abilities when a number of the players you are accusing have been playing since this game was in play testing seem a little trollish.

I am not accusing you of being a Troll, but please in the future realize there are a number of players that post opposing veiw that are very experienced and we should not take the road of blaming the otherside of lacking the knowledge and experience you have. It cuases unneeded fights and bad feelings.

Try to make more objective posts. Again I am not saying you were "bad" but we want to be different from other communities.

[Dolomyte]

Maybe we should start a focus group about it.

And use some real-time chat instead of forum-based chat that makes everyone come across badly and hate eachother.

At worst we spend some time discussing Malifaux and come up with some ideas that get ignored. At best we do something useful.

I am all for starting an IRC chat or yahoo chat or what ever. I think it would be great to talk to people live. We can even use skype if people want. I come off a lot less dickish when you can hear the tone in my voice.

[dgraz]

I am all for starting an IRC chat or yahoo chat or what ever. I think it would be great to talk to people live. We can even use skype if people want. I come off a lot less dickish when you can hear the tone in my voice.

Unfortunately, I'm just as bad IRL as I am posting........

Just want to make a comment about Wyrd's timetable, or lack of a quick fix, or knee-jerk reaction, or whatever you want to call it.

If they're trying to make the best possible fix, it's going to take time. With the Dreamer, what's the real problem? Alp Bomb, SS Cache, Stitched, etc, etc......I'm certain play-testing is going on and I'm sure they're trying to come up with the most elegant solution.

What we have to remember also is that they're trying to do what is best for the game as a whole, not just the vocal minority that posts here. For every poster on here, there must be 2 or 3 people that play but don't really post. (My LGS as example, we have 6-7 semi-regular players but only 2 of us post on here at all.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is good to bring up and discuss these issues but don't start getting crazy if it isn't addressed right away.

[Calmdown]

Et voila

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24799

[swingjunkie]

Really was not trying to be trollish. Hence why I said that it was a theory. I just noticed that there was alot of correlation between masters that do better/worse with fluffy lists and masters that are called over/under powered. It was an observation more so than an opinion.

Also, while I am still only 4 months in, I do play in an area with some fantastic players, including 2 developers and the current world champion. I do not claim that I am a good player, but I have noticed that those people sometimes use combinations that I don't really see the weaker players (myself included) using. So again it was really only a theory that I was interesting in hearing both sides of, not a statement of "I'm a genius and you're all idiots". I'm sorry if it came accross that way.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Really was not trying to be trollish. Hence why I said that it was a theory. I just noticed that there was alot of correlation between masters that do better/worse with fluffy lists and masters that are called over/under powered. It was an observation more so than an opinion.

Also, while I am still only 4 months in, I do play in an area with some fantastic players, including 2 developers and the current world champion. I do not claim that I am a good player, but I have noticed that those people sometimes use combinations that I don't really see the weaker players (myself included) using. So again it was really only a theory that I was interesting in hearing both sides of, not a statement of "I'm a genius and you're all idiots". I'm sorry if it came accross that way.

Reading your OP it can be seen that you were not purposely trying to start a fight and I respect that. Sometimes things don't translate well on the internet, as I am sure you know, so I misinterpreted your original intent.

I do in a way see what you mean when a player complains about the basic box set, or strictly sticking to fluffy lists, are not as competitive as some other lists "so there for the Master is broken" is not a strong argument. But as you saw right away the Alp Bomb and Lilitu discussion immediately became the main topic of discussion.

It happens and I don't think any of us are going to think anything of it. Just hate seeing a good community doing a petty back and forth. (Which we tend to avoid for the most part.)

Just a side note: There is nothing wrong with Fluff players as long as they realize it may not be the most optimum way to play a Master, but it is still fun to do and I encourage players to play for fun and not to turn this into Listmachine.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I pose a theory: MOST (not all) of the "imbalance" of Malifaux lies in people making fluffier lists instead of exploring all of their options. Discuss.

To cite: Archanists, the generally accepted "weakest faction" also has some of the fluffiest lists, while Neverborn, the most "overpowered faction" can field almost any model in any list. Even in games amongst weaker players, it is not uncommon to see Lelu, Teddy, or Terror Tots in almost any Neverborn crew. However, how often does one see Student of Conflict in a Marcus crew or Joss in a Raspy Crew, at least among newer players? They are both fine models and not terrible choices at all, they just don't seem to fit with those masters.

Within Ressers, Kirai is seen as Teir 1, Seamus as teir 1.5 and McMourning is usually ranked even lower. If you look at the "fluffy" models, you see that Kirai with spirits is great, Seamus with Belles is good, and most people people turn their nurses into paperweights quickly. But when one turns to other models for McMourning, or puts some muscle in a Seamus list, buisness picks up. Heck, I can't count how often I've seen Killjoy in a rezzer list.

Anyways, just food for thought, please put your own unput in.

what do you mean by fluff list?

If it's what that master would take in fluff, then Neverborn have the fluffiest crews cause, I wouldn't take pandora without Woe, exapt possibly teddy, who is connected to her via Kade. Same with Lilith with Nephilim and The dreamer with Nightmares

[Dolomyte]

Also, while I am still only 4 months in, I do play in an area with some fantastic players, including 2 developers and the current world champion.

wait, what? who is the current world champion. did I miss the world championship event somewhere. I really want to go to that tournament, is it invite only?

[swingjunkie]

Sorry, Master of Malifaux champion. It was a big tournament so it's just easier to say world champion. lol

[Dolomyte]

Sorry, Master of Malifaux champion. It was a big tournament so it's just easier to say world champion. lol

Ok, just threw me for a second. thought I had missed out on something.

Can't start the malifaux pro tour without inviting the brits though. I have a feeling the UK playerbase would be up in arms.

[Cats Laughing]

I think the perception of imbalance comes from the fact that there is imbalance.

But I would also argue, all miniatures games are just as imbalanced.

I would only disagree with the degree of imbalance which is generally portrayed, which I would chalk up to the fact that we are communicating on the internet. And typing makes people angry.

QFT, especially the "typing makes people angry" part

[Serigala]

Sorry, Master of Malifaux champion. It was a big tournament so it's just easier to say world champion. lol

Don't tell us Malifaux us going the way of Baseball !

[nilus]

GW uses a codex / army book system. They intentionally make the most recent codex / army book slightly more powerful then the last released codex / army book. They occasionally reset with a new edition. This drives the competetive players to buy a new book and new models if they wish to win, and it encourages older players to buy different models then what were powerful in the last go round. It's a ruthlessly brilliant business model.

(For interest of disclosure: I worked for games workshop, and not as a cashier at a hobby center)

I would agree with what you wrote, but I have to ask. What happened with the Tau man?

[nilus]

I invite everyone to Terraclips discussion. The terrain has some incredible balancing potential and is available right here right now (unlike Wyrd's fixes). It's far more productive' date=' IMHO, than discussing balance.[/quote']

T clips are OP