Zoraida and 2 Special Forces

[Fading Memory]

This debate has come up a few times in other threads, but I don't believe it has been its own topic.

Under the rules for hiring models, it says, "The following restrictions apply when hiring Crews." (p71) and then later on says only one special forces may be selected and only two models of that special force may be hired unless a henchman of that special force is hired.

It says nothing about being able to summon Special Forces. Zoraida is able to summon Wicked Dolls. So the question is if Zoraida hires let's say Rami (Sp Kin), can she summon Wicked Dolls once the game starts?

The rule of one special force is unclear when talking about summoning as the rules seem to fall under hiring only; where as, something like Rare clearly stats how many of that model you can have in play at any given time.

[Ciaran]

Why bump this? Why not just play it as rules as written?

Is it that you're looking for a change, in order to include models from two different Special Forces?

[Fading Memory]

Why bump this? Why not just play it as rules as written?

Is it that you're looking for a change, in order to include models from two different Special Forces?

Rules Marshalls said they would get back to us on a ruling after they discussed it when I first created this thread and haven't commented as of yet. The fact that they said they needed to discuss this says the rule isn't clear about summoning special forces models into a crew that contains a different special forces already. That's why it's being bumped.

[mindwarpusa]

I think part of the issue is that special forces dolls says that Zoraida may contain any number of these in addition to the standard special forces rules. I can see where there may be confusion, so yes why shouldn't a rules marshal chime in. If it was just one thing for sure they would just chime in with "exactly" or something.

so... bump away keep the thread in their minds so they don't forget about it.

[Ciaran]

I can see the point. They're not going to forget about it the question. My experience with this sort of thing is that there's something much bigger going on than how it appears to us.

mindwarpusa: That means she can take any number of Dolls (like Ramos can take any number of M&SU Assets), and only those Dolls. No hiring from another group if she wants Dolls.

[mindwarpusa]

Well that's your interpretation some people have looked at it differently and that's why a clarification needs to be made. Also the point of "may contain" needs to be clarified as per hiring or ever as it is under the hiring rules section. So the biggest question is if she could still summon her wicked dolls while running a different SF

Edited November 4, 2011 by mindwarpusa

[Ciaran]

That's how the rule is written, it's pretty black and white.

I can see how people might want it spelled out by a Rules Marshall, I've been there in the past myself. That doesn't change how the rules are laid out now (just like in my case actually :/)

Until we hear differently (and if there IS a ruling that's different it will be a definite change) just play it as explained.

[mindwarpusa]

I actually agree with your interpretation but some of my local players are of a different opinion an it just keeps on ending up a card flip.

[CannonFodder]

If its pretty black and white, why haven't they just say their ruling.

[Da Big Baws]

Well that's your interpretation some people have looked at it differently and that's why a clarification needs to be made. Also the point of "may contain" needs to be clarified as per hiring or ever as it is under the hiring rules section. So the biggest question is if she could still summon her wicked dolls while running a different SF

I think the problem in the wording that causes confusion is the first bit, "In addition to the standard Special Forces rules, Zoraida/Ramos may hire any number of models with this characteristic".

Does the 'in addition' mean on top off, aka it stacks with the Special Forces, OR does it mean to change Special Force rules in that instance to add the change the model restriction for Ramos/Zoraida specifically?

Edited November 4, 2011 by Da Big Baws

[Ciaran]

Does the 'in addition' mean on top off, aka it stacks with the Special Forces, OR does it mean to change Special Force rules in that instance to add the change the model restriction for Ramos/Zoraida specifically?

It means on top of, as in "You still have the ONE SF group limit" with as many as you want.

[Dolomyte]

Staying Alive, Staying Alive, aah aah aah ahhh staying aliiiiiive

[CannonFodder]

lol....

I've been tempted to re-bump this for a while.

[bldyhll666]

ok im officially confused. so im just gonna ask this question:

is this list allowed?

35ss brawl

zoraida

collodi

marionette x4

gunsmith

wicked dolls x3

desp. merc

dont have cards in front of me, so forgive me if i added wrong ( if i did, just take out desp merc)

can i run this list? yes or no?

thanks for your help

[Dracomax]

ok im officially confused. so im just gonna ask this question:

is this list allowed?

35ss brawl

zoraida

collodi

marionette x4

gunsmith

wicked dolls x3

desp. merc

dont have cards in front of me, so forgive me if i added wrong ( if i did, just take out desp merc)

can i run this list? yes or no?

thanks for your help

I'm pretty sure that either the gunsmith or the dolls won't work in that list.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Dracomax

[Omenbringer]

Well that is definately 2 different Special Forces, so would say no it wouldn't work.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

ok im officially confused. so im just gonna ask this question:

is this list allowed?

35ss brawl

zoraida

collodi

marionette x4

gunsmith

wicked dolls x3

desp. merc

dont have cards in front of me, so forgive me if i added wrong ( if i did, just take out desp merc)

can i run this list? yes or no?

thanks for your help

Definitive no. The point of this thread is more can you summon a wicked doll (SF: Doll) into play when you have hired Von Schill (SF: Friekorps) or some other special force option.

[CannonFodder]

Probable NO.... Key words in the rule book for Spec Forces(dolls) say If you have Zoraida its sais In Addition....

But in all honesty if ever officially ruled it will be you can't mix 2 types when Hiring your crew. The big question in this thread that we want to see the official answer to is can you summon a Spec forces model if you have a different special forces model in your crew already. ie Zoraida summons a wicked doll if you have a gunsmith in the crew.

[bldyhll666]

oh, ok. that was actually my next question. hopw we get an answer soon. thanks guys, didnt mean to troll the thread

[Ciaran]

oh, ok. that was actually my next question. hopw we get an answer soon. thanks guys, didnt mean to troll the thread

You cannot summon a second Special Forces into a crew. The rules manual says crews cannot contain in this case, meaning you can never have two SF types at the same time, no matter how it happened.

I'm not sure we're going to get an official ruling on this as it's spelled out so clearly.

[Dracomax]

You cannot summon a second Special Forces into a crew. The rules manual says crews cannot contain in this case, meaning you can never have two SF types at the same time, no matter how it happened.

I'm not sure we're going to get an official ruling on this as it's spelled out so clearly.

Obviously it is not spelled out clearly, given that people are still, months later, coming in and asking about it.

[Ciaran]

Obviously it is not spelled out clearly, given that people are still, months later, coming in and asking about it.

The people that are coming in and asking about are looking for a ruling to change the book rule. They're hoping that the intent is to allow Zoraida (and Ramos as he's affected by the same type of rule) the opportunity to use more than one type of SF.

As it stands now, the answer is no, it's how it's spelled out.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

The people that are coming in and asking about are looking for a ruling to change the book rule. They're hoping that the intent is to allow Zoraida (and Ramos as he's affected by the same type of rule) the opportunity to use more than one type of SF.

As it stands now, the answer is no, it's how it's spelled out.

I agree with you it is clear. Though the section you reference is in the hiring section only right? This is where people might make a case sense the section might only pertain to hiring restrictions not crew composition mid game. Rare is a great example in rm where it is spelled out. Again I believe the wording is clear you can't summon in another sf.

Since no rm has chimed in on this big of a thread implies they may think this needs to errattaed (probably not real word ). Big threads rarely go unanswered for so long, when opinions seem to be so different.

[Keltheos]

Sometimes we do just like watching you squirm a bit...

Plan on a response to this from the badges (hopefully) tomorrow.

[Ciaran]

I agree with you it is clear. Though the section you reference is in the hiring section only right? This is where people might make a case sense the section might only pertain to hiring restrictions not crew composition mid game. Rare is a great example in rm where it is spelled out. Again I believe the wording is clear you can't summon in another sf.

Since no rm has chimed in on this big of a thread implies they may think this needs to errattaed (probably not real word ). Big threads rarely go unanswered for so long, when opinions seem to be so different.

With the potential ruling on this tomorrow this might not matter. Where the one SF only rule comes from is where SF is defined. On page 10 of the RM it says that a crew can only contain members of one SF group. It goes on to say that some models lift the ability to only hire two members of the SF group in question. This means Henchmen, Zoraida and Ramos. It goes on to say that the limit of one SF group remains in play.

Agreed! It works exactly the same as the Rare number.

Again, this could all change tomorrow! I'm quite excited to see where this lands!

Edited December 8, 2011 by Ciaran

[Korrosion]

Sometimes we do just like watching you squirm a bit...

Plan on a response to this from the badges (hopefully) tomorrow.

This made me laugh out loud :+fate:+fate