Neverborn Rules Discussion

[McNs]

We have no data with any weight at all. What we have is analytic thinking - since the event has raised some doubts and since there seem to be areas where Neverborn absolutely dominate the playing scene, we should probably engage in analyzing the situation. The methodology has been proposed. After we complete that process and come up with some conclusions (assuming the methodology gains approval of course), the opinion based on these conclusions will carry some weight.

I agree, but trying to apply statistical principals to "absolutely" prove something in a wargame is a fool's errand. There is no standard player, standard list, standard terrain set-up, standard strategy, standard set of schemes, and/or standardized card randomization. Even if you normalized a set of data for the above, people will argue some issue with the normalization.

Moreover, its a frickin' game. I'd rather paint my models than crunch R-square's and p-values in order to further argue an opinion on what is, arguably, a subjective matter.

My thoughts on this generally: there's a difference between a model being game-breakingly overpowered and a model being very, very good in certain situations that, despite being beatable, takes a disproportionately large amount of resources for the opposing player to overcome and makes the game a negative play experience.

To make an analogy to another wargame: Sorcha1's (from Warmachine) ability set before Prime Remix was almost unarguably game-breakingly powerful (especially in conjunction with the tournament rule-set at the time). In contrast, Vlad2 later in Mk I wasn't game-breakingly powerful, but was powerful enough that he dominated the national tournament scene. The model was beatable, but he was powerful enough that if two players of near equal play abilities played each other, Vlad2 gave one play an edge, all else being equal.

With that in mind, there were many an internet argument started by "ZoMG! EVlad is teh borkens!" that played out similar to the arguments in this thread. Interestingly enough, Vlad2 was toned down a bit in the 2nd edition of Warmachine and remains viable but doesn't dominate the tournament circuit. At least in my metagame, this has been considered a good thing for the health of the game.

******

I'm not going to argue specifics of the NB models to that metric, but I think that's a fair metric to go by rather than searching for a perfectly objective statistical analysis.

[Fading Memory]

Adeptican 2011 near Chigago held a 35ss scraps and 40ss brawl.

In the Scraps 3 of the top five were Outcast with an Outcast player being #1, #2 was Neverborn, #3 was Guild.

Overall

4 Arcanists

4 Guild

6 Neverborn

5 Outcast

4 Resurrectionists

The Brawl was much smaller with only 8 players. Outcasts placing First and Neverborn placing Second.

2 of each: Guild, Arcanists, Guild, Neverborn.

Here is the the link to the 35ss rankings. http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2348

The Brawl can be found under past coverage 2011 on the left of the page.

[Q'iq'el]

I agree, but trying to apply statistical principals to "absolutely" prove something in a wargame is a fool's errand. There is no standard player, standard list, standard terrain set-up, standard strategy, standard set of schemes, and/or standardized card randomization. Even if you normalized a set of data for the above, people will argue some issue with the normalization.

Exactly my point. I also argue that we have no way at all to obtain a normalized set of data.

What I proposed was not data gathering, but standardized play-testing and reporting procedure.

Other than that, I agree with you it is more or less a waste of time and effort. I too prefer to paint and play and post, when there's a break at work. But if someone feels he needs to raise the issue on the forums and push it till Wyrd sees the light and changes the model, the least we can expect from him is that he and the players with free time at their hands engage in some meaningful play-testing effort. I'm sure it would greatly help the balance if some sort of reliable crowd-sourcing of the play-testing can be devised by the community.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I would rather math around than paint. Painting is a chore.

[Q'iq'el]

Math alone is no problem, but it isn't math alone that we need here. We need people to make effort to record their games... and to test particular combos meticulously, against multiple opponents.

Actually I'm pretty sure the players who regularly win tournaments do it anyway. It is part of the process of becoming good and testing new models. But for a working person it means throwing away your already precious gaming time for something which may benefit the community, but gets boring after a while (especially if you are not working on creating combos, but on testing the same combo against different scenarios).

[Math Mathonwy]

but both Df and Wp of the NB minions hover around 4, which is sometimes described as the lowest meaningful value in this game.

Rezzers, my other faction, tends to hover between 5 and 7 with WP and 5~9 in Df (especially when boosted by some of their buffs).

You can't be serious. You are honestly, with a straight face, claiming that Ressers have, on average, 2.5 more Df than Neverborn? Wow. And yeah, I know that you tend to calculate Nico's +2 aura every time you're discussing the capablities of Ressers, but come on! That's just ridiculously disingenuous.

You keep making these "how things should be compared and proven" posts yet your own level of discourse is that??

[Jonas Albrecht]

Average Neverborn Minion Df in Book 1: 4.92

Average Resurrectionist Minion Df in Book 1: 4.4

[Q'iq'el]

You can't be serious. You are honestly, with a straight face, claiming that Ressers have, on average, 2.5 more Df than Neverborn? Wow. And yeah, I know that you tend to calculate Nico's +2 aura every time you're discussing the capablities of Ressers, but come on! That's just ridiculously disingenuous.

I'm trying to be true to my own experience and also to look at stats in general. I also assume the values for stats I see in combat, rather than on paper. Sure, there are cases where I get beaten and Bolster is down or when my crucial model is trying to hold and there's no Nurse to spike him. Those are situations where things have already gone wrong before the fight even started and the crew is failing apart. That's my fault, not the game's or balance issue.

Also this was a by the way answer to a by the way question. Sure it was below the standards I propose myself, because it was a side note of completely different discussion. It wasn't ingenuine, it was trying to point out *SOME* of the factors behind the gaming experience - which is that Nicodem and his crew are tanks taking damage in the face and winning, while Lilith crew falls apart the moment something is misplaced and herself, despite might Df8, she can go down in just 1 turn without other models to clear the way for her.

So let's see. Last time I played Nicodem, I have fielded:

Nicodem: Df3, but generally opponents don't cheat or spend SS on him while there's a MZ around.

Crooked Man: Df4, Df6 with aura. Situationally Evasive 2 helps them further, plus they are to guard Nico from early rushes, so they operate in the Fog.

Mortimer: Df5, Regeneration 1. He can buff himself against ranged attacks and soon I'll be buffing him with the aura too (Necrotic Machine), but that's another matter.

Punk Zombie x1: Df5, Df7 with aura. Hard to Wound 1.

Bête Noire: Df7, Df9 with aura. Obviously rather difficult to kill.

Belle: Df3, Df5 with Aura. Hard to Wound 1 - arguably the weakest full-price model on the Ressurectionist Roster (Canines and Necropunks are discount models more or less).

And 2 Vultures for utility.

33 SS crew, 5SS in the cache (on the lower side)

At the moment I started the game my Df was squarely between 5 and 9 across the board. It'd be between 3 and 7 for other masters, but then other masters have different buffs (nurses for example). Spirits halve the damage which is another mechanic helping their survivability.

During the game I raised 2 Punk Zombies and 1 Flesh Construct, I lost Belle and Crooked Man. Flesh Construct is Df3, 5 with Aura, but it is Hard to Wound 2.

And as I said, on the top of that you have layer of healing (Decay, Bête's self healing, Mortimer's Regen) and an ability to bring models back.

Compare that with my Lilith crew, where (besides the master, but I don't see Lilith as equally survivable to Nicodem assuming equal skill) only Terror Tots are Df6 and nobody can argue they are survivable at 4 wounds and no healing. Young and Waldgeist - mainstay of my list are Df 5. Waldgeist is in the ballpark with Rezzers, as far as survivability goes and is really hard to kill in forest due to his special rules, but that's that one model in the crew.

Young Nephilim, on the other hand, is considerably easier to lose due to direct damage than Rezzer fighters I use.

Damage Sponges, such as Mature Neph, Teddy or Bad Juju are all at Df3~4.

Annoying models like Sorrows sit at Df5, but only 4 wounds.

Sure, as I said there are models with high Df in the Neverborn roster. But the models people are really up in arms, like Alps, are not survivable.

The bottom line is that my Nicodem crew fights in the open, takes damage and still wins. My Neverborn crew hides in the terrain and any mistake in timing or application of force, leaving models in the open and not in melee, means they are dead in one turn. This is the common experience behind the Glass Cannon argument, I believe.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

Average Neverborn Minion Df in Book 1: 4.92

Average Resurrectionist Minion Df in Book 1: 4.4

+healing, hard to wound across the board, buffs to Df from several sources.

[magicpockets]

. Its damage potential with GyL is huge AND always cheatable -

Will read the whole tread later but misunderstandings like this are part of the problem. GYL is cheatable under normal duel rules, I.e. You win by 6 or more. There's a RM re this somewhere.

Even worse would be taking a stitched with Zoraida and a doppleganger. Ganger mimics Zoraida's willpower and gamble your life. Pain is brought.

Thats 8 points for a 2 big actions, seems fair enough

[Jonas Albrecht]

+healing' date=' hard to wound across the board, buffs to Df from several sources.[/quote']

Only four of the twelve Neverborn minions in book 1 do not have Hard to Wound, Armor, Regeneration, Healing, or some other personal defense mechanism.

EDIT: And before this goes any further, Qi, I'm not doing this to antagonize you. I feel the "Neverborn are Glass Cannons" narrative is a bit of fiction that has never really been examined critically.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[Math Mathonwy]

At the moment I started the game my Df was squarely between 5 and 9 across the board. It'd be between 3 and 7 for other masters' date=' but then other masters have different buffs (nurses for example).[/quote']

o_O I... honestly don't know how to even answer this. *shakes head*

Edit: do you assume Guild Cbs to be all sevens and nines since Lady Justice can do Inspiring Swordplay? And Belle's movement is nine since Seamus and Molly can get them to move faster? Do you honestly think that that makes for a meaningful comparison?

Edited August 25, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Jonas Albrecht]

More numbers from book 1:

Average Guild Df: 4.25

Average Arcanist Df: 4.61

[Q'iq'el]

o_O I... honestly don't know how to even answer this. *shakes head*

Edit: do you assume Guild Cbs to be all sevens and nines since Lady Justice can do Inspiring Swordplay? And Belle's movement is nine since Seamus and Molly can get them to move faster? Do you honestly think that that makes for a meaningful comparison?

I wasn't aware I was comparing stats. The question was about perceptions and experience - why people argue Neverborn are Glass Canons, when they don't seem to be on the paper. Clearly, you can't argue the stats on the paper to explain that, can you?

Excuse my poor ability to express in English, but please try to understand what I'm saying as a whole, rather than deconstruct the argument and nitpick at the parts which cannot stand on their own, out of context.

I haven't said, in my original reply, that Df is one and only factor or that I compare stats on the card. I gave quick and dirty list of several factors. I didn't want to create yet another OT in the thread and that was a BTW answer to the post on another subject.

Df isn't even the only factor I mentioned - I also mentioned Wounds count, Wp and Special rules. Obviously Df means nothing when someone casts Decay on you.

During the game Rezzers Df is fluid, Wp is relatively solid and they have ways and means and actions to mitigate the influence of the damage on their crew. At worst, they bring replacement models with their master's AP and their Control Hand.

Neverborn tend to not modify their stats. Nephilim crews actually drop on average Df as the game progresses. They can hide and they are fast enough to hide, but they can do less once they are caught by their opponent. This is the essence of my argument.

Yes, I assume Df under Aura or other buffs, because the turns Aura is not up, in my experience, are the turns when there's no fighting going on. If a model needs to survive, it will get the Massive Dose from the Nurse. That's to be expected as default situation. Sometimes activation order means a model is caught with no Aura or other buffs- that's exception, not rule. This is not based on paper or theoryfaux, this is based on two years of gaming. When I'm a Nephilim player, I have to expect these buffs to be up or my plans will fail - so even the threat of the buff is enough to affect the amount of force I try to apply to achieve my results.

I try not to speak about Factions I have no experience of, so I avoid comparing to Guild. Colette too has ways to deal with damage - not only endless supply of Soulstones for her, but also the ability to provide this advantage to the rest of the crew. On the top of that we have constructs, objects and Irresistible models in her crew, which is a mitigating factor as well. In the Neverborn crews I know, only the Siblings share similar advantage. Nekima to a degree (because she can't hide and is on the low side when it comes to Df, IIRC), while in my Rezzer crew this is shared by most 4~5 SS models, so Rank and File of the crew.

Is this really so hard to see?

Edited August 25, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Uncle]

Is this really so hard to see?

Neverborn are slightly less survivable when compared to Ressers, this is true. This does not, however, make them "glass cannons."

The most common Resser masters would seem to be (at least locally) Seamus and Kirai. Neither of them tend to run Nurses or have defense buffs.

Likewise, the two most commonly-played Neverborn masters (again, locally) are Pandora and the Dreamer, both of whom have their own methods of being highly survivable.

And again, I find myself pointing this out: dead models cannot counterattack. If your "glass cannon" takes out the enemy, the rest doesn't matter at all.

[Mentat_Canis]

To even Bring up the Average CB and Average Defense is meaningless unless someone breaks it down to.

Average SS cost, Average CB, Average Defense, Average Wounds, Average Speed, Average Damage output, Average WP.

From there you might still need to break that out into Unique, Rare 2 or better, and Rank and file. If someone wanted to do that we could actually talk about the model statistics faction to faction and would probably still be off based due to special skill. Ressers don't die quickly neithor do Guild with the Armor so many of them have. Trying to do this with numbers will be futile until you put all the numbers together one of those is SS cost.

[nilus]

And even then, that assumes a game goes on for 6 turns. In timed rounds, being able to hit hard, first, matters far more than being able to take a hit and win the resilience game. Alpha strikes win games in a tournament environment.

My experience running tournaments for almost 2 years now is that most games go 6 turns, or at least 5 with a definitive winner.

That's my own experience though, so your local meta may vary.

[Calmdown]

Actually, as a Rezzer player I disagree that Rezzers are more survivable. I'd say Kirai's crew is more survivable than most things in general because of spirit, but mostly the important thing to staying alive in Malifaux is Df. Wounds don't really keep you alive if your def is low.

Also, Hard to Wound is a very mixed blessing. Although it increases the chances of enemies hitting you for weak damage, you always run a highly increased risk of your enemy hitting a Red Joker and oneshotting your model. It happens more often than you think. It's by no means not a good ability, but it always feels like it 'costs' a model too much to get H2W (see: Dead Rider being 10 points). Other models like Ice Golem suffer similar problems; good Wd plus some armour, does not a tough model make. Df is what really matters, and Neverborn have it consistently in spades compared to other factions.

And as has been mentioned - being a Glass Cannon only matter if your opponent is still there to hit back. Neverborn are all geared to getting first strike through their high movement, and more often nowadays, their mastery of Lure with Lilitu, so even if you think that they are weak defensively (which I think is a perception from fluff and original game design intentions rather than a reality), they obviously more than enough tools to get around that weakness.

[karn987]

Neverborn are slightly less survivable when compared to Ressers, this is true. This does not, however, make them "glass cannons."

The most common Resser masters would seem to be (at least locally) Seamus and Kirai. Neither of them tend to run Nurses or have defense buffs.

Likewise, the two most commonly-played Neverborn masters (again, locally) are Pandora and the Dreamer, both of whom have their own methods of being highly survivable.

And again, I find myself pointing this out: dead models cannot counterattack. If your "glass cannon" takes out the enemy, the rest doesn't matter at all.

Considering how brutal Malifaux is, Neverborn are indeed less durable. Now this is what you and others keep confusing, less durable and less tough does not mean easier to kill necessarily. They trade durability for avoidance, it's a classic trade off.

Otherwise Neverborn have few models that qualify as durable. Ie models with Hard to Wound, Hard to Kill, Armor, Object, Exceptionally high Wds, High Regeneration/self/other healing. Teddy, Juju, and Stitched are perfect examples of this.

What they have is avoidance through multiple duels to hit, average to high Df, special defensive abilities. Which does leave them rather vulnerable to a whole subset of attacks... Area of Effects ( Pulses, Blasts, Auras). Sure regulare direct attacks can work agains them, but in general they are geared to deal well with the rabble and give the elites reason for concern.

So yes, they are actually indeed Glass Cannons for the most part. Your also very correct, if the Glass Cannons take out the opponent, there is no retaliation... but isn't that the point of that? If you look at the models with the specialized defensive abilities, they tend to not be the biggest damage dealers.

Neverborn defensive abilities consist of avoidance and nuetralizatoin. The ladder being a mix of disabling abilities and raw offensive power.

So the key is, when they take damage they have very few things that reduce it and can't take quite as much as some other factions (in general).

All this considered, yes this does make a subset of them high on survivability. But then again, once they are hit they tend to take more damage because of the lack of H2W, Armor, and Object. Does it balance out? Extremely hard to say and everyone is going to have their opinion on this.

Edited August 25, 2011 by karn987

[Fetid Strumpet]

Also, Hard to Wound is a very mixed blessing.

This. Don't get me wrong, Hard to Wound is a good ability. However, taking Weak Dmg is still taking dmg. Resilience is better achieved by not being hit and thereby taking no dmg at all.

Neverborn are not glass cannons. They are plain and simply Cannons.

I'm sorry Karn, I can't agree with you that one of the balancing factors of NB is that they don't have many mitigation Abilities once they eventually do get hit. NB wounds are not significantly lower than other factions on the more commonly used models (except in the case of Alps). So the fact that their avoidance is their main defence makes them ore resilient than others. If the average wounds of the commonly used NB minion was like 4-5 I might agree with you.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[karn987]

This. Don't get me wrong, Hard to Wound is a good ability. However, taking Weak Dmg is still taking dmg.

But then again, I'm willing to bet a good half the models that have H2W also have recursion mechanics from their Master (or another model). This heavily offsets the fact that they still end up taking damage from it.

I'm sure everyone knows the joy of trying to cut down a Flesh Construct or a Punk Zombie, only to have it get right back up next turn. Or finally killing a Onryu (after Spirit keeps nuking your damage) only to have it to return right away.

[pgbsamurai]

I have routinely seen where my Neverborn models get dropped in one or two hits. Most Neverborn model's wounds don't exceed their SS cost. Yes it will likely take more swings to hit a Neverborn, but it will take far fewer hits to take them down.

Ressur models tend to have much higher wounds compared to their SS cost. They also tend to have the Hard to Wound, Hard to Kill, and Slow to Die abilities thrown on top of that. Yes they are easier to hit, but 90% of the time that hit is going to be min damage. It is going to take a lot more hits to drop a ressur model. On top of that once the Ressur model goes down, there is a good chance the master can just bring the same or better model back.

As the game goes on Ressurs tend to stay at full force while Neverborn keeps getting whittled down and overwhelmed.

I am not say Ressurs are over powered, but they more than balance a Neverborn's defense.

[Uncle]

Considering how brutal Malifaux is, Neverborn are indeed less durable. Now this is what you and others keep confusing, less durable and less tough does not mean easier to kill necessarily. They trade durability for avoidance, it's a classic trade off.

And it also negates the whole concept of "glass cannon." An avoidance tank is still a tank. Just ask FFXI Ninjas.

So yes, they are actually indeed Glass Cannons for the most part. Your also very correct, if the Glass Cannons take out the opponent, there is no retaliation... but isn't that the point of that? If you look at the models with the specialized defensive abilities, they tend to not be the biggest damage dealers.

The difference there is that, again, a dead model cannot counterattack, thus making speed and offense much more valuable in Malifaux when compared to "toughness."

But that's oftentimes a problem with miniature games in general.

[Calmdown]

I am not say Ressurs are over powered, but they more than balance a Neverborn's defense.

Maybe their defences are balanced. But their movement and their attack is definitely not.

So if low df is a fair balance for having HtW or StD etc, what is the tradeoff for having slow movement and poor offensive capability?

Even if we just stick to book one, compare a Terror Tot to a Necropunk, or a Young Nephilim to Sebastian (forget he's unique, even) and you'll see models that are on a par defensively but a clear one-sidedness in movement and offensive capability. Do the same comparison with Lilitu or Lelu to Mortimer or even the new Rafkin. They just dont come close.

[pgbsamurai]

I'm not going to get into comparing individual models against other individual models. You'll never get an even comparison.

While Ressurs have a lower Wk on average, there are still plenty of models that have access movement tricks that can get them across the board when they need to. There is also the issue of numbers. A big part of what slows models down is getting stuck in melee. With more models you have more opportunity to send some of those models off unharassed to achieve objectives. Over all though, I would not be opposed to non Kirai crews getting access to a few faster models. (Not sure if you guys got anything in book three with better movement or not.)

As far as poor offensive capability... I'm just not see it. A lot of models ressurs have access to have high cb, high damage, good triggers, etc. Not sure why you think Ressurs have poor offense.

Yes, Neverborn have access to some heavy hitters, but they the are higher priced, and have lower Df. Most of the Neverborn models with high DF are not very good at offense.

edit: Lure, Shafted, and Hangmans Knot also help to mess with your opponents movement as well.

Edited August 25, 2011 by pgbsamurai