Avatars, and complaints.

[Dolomyte]

Hello Everyone,

I don't really remember this every being discussed, but I was wondering if anyone at wyrd could comment on what avatars are going to do the landscape of the game. I understand those people at gencon will get the book, and those of us ordering online will receive it sometime shortly later, and that book 3 will probably answer most if not all of these questions. I also want to apologize if I missed some of these questions answered in the rapidly expanding gencon threads, but any time I click that its about five pages longer then 3 hours ago.

What is the general concept of avatars, are they alternate masters to their original versions, ala Epic Warcasters from warmachine? Are they going to be a form triggered in game by meeting some sort of condition, Ala super saiyen from dragonball z? Are they limited to a certain type of game, tournament, point level?

Just curious.

Now to my complaints.

I have stated this in other threads, but I really believe that other people out there agree with me and I just want a thread for them to be able to say it without being debbie downers to the excitement of the previews being shown.

The avatar sculpts, and some of the newer non-avatar sculpts are ridiculously oversized and unwieldy, Nightmare edition models exempt (you know what your getting there)

Nekima is a gorgeous model, every time I go to work on painting her I feel its like a labor of love, but I get pissed off because she is starting to lean to her right. despite my best attempts, including bending her wings, the model is heavily weighted to the right and overtime the shockingly strong quarter inch leg is just not holding her up straight. I dont doubt that in a plane ride or violent car ride (the GW bridge in new york comes to mind) that the joint is going to flat out snap on me.

She also takes up the exact same amount of case space as nightmare lord chompy bits, which is frankly far too much case space. I dont want to individually seal my large models in liquid foam for transporting between events.

The avatars I have seen so far look great, (except marcus), but half of them seem to suffer from the same flaws as some of the larger models. Pandora and Lady Justice look like they have multiple break points, Pandora is massive. Seamus and Sonnia look fine, though without another model standing next to sonnia for scale its hard to judge how tall she is.

I like my models to look nice, however I also would like them to be playable if they are going to have rules. I personally am going to buy any and all of the alternate sculpts that I like just to paint for my personal showcase, some of the avatars I think would make amazing showcase models. But I feel like no one thought "Hey, can our players actually use this model in games and transport them around".

In the future I sincerely hope someone brings up that concern when designing the models.

P.S. if you were to design awesome over the top models and call it the showcase line, I am sure there would still be a good deal of us who would buy them just for our personal collection. Hell, if you want to make a larger lilith, kind of like forgeworld abbadon, I would probably buy and paint it to sit next to abbadon.

[Eisenhorn]

In terms of what the avatars will do exactly I guess we will have to wait and see. All of the different pod casts have tried to pry info out of the designers but with little success. I don’t see why they would simply cave at this point. Anyway what they have said basically amounts to the avatar as being at the general same power level as the original master but with different abilities. Just because you make an avatar it doesn’t mean its the I win button. Also once you transform into an avatar there is no going back.

In terms of the size of the models I understand you concern. I think 40k is an excellent test group for the "growing model size" experiment. GW has been releasing larger and larger models (Primarily fliers such as the Storm Raven and Valk) and in my opinion they haven’t ruined the game because of their size... just their abilities. Also keep in mind that the size of the avatar might be intentional to limit when and where you can transform. Remember if you cant place a Malifaux model when being summoned then the models cant come in.

[HoarcatsPride]

They are a triggered form they transform into. By doing something special, each master's trigger is different, this what I have read. I believe all Avatar's are on a 50mm base. How are they unwieldy? What do you use to build your minis with? Anyway, they are must likely not limited to a certain version/set up of the malifaux game. I am thinking that some of the Avatar parts with be resin, but if not I don't see why if you pin them well that they will break if handled properly. :bigthumb:

[Dolomyte]

They are a triggered form they transform into. By doing something special, each master's trigger is different, this what I have read. I believe all Avatar's are on a 50mm base. How are they unwieldy? What do you use to build your minis with? Anyway, they are must likely not limited to a certain version/set up of the malifaux game. I am thinking that some of the Avatar parts with be resin, but if not I don't see why if you pin them well that they will break if handled properly. :bigthumb:

The joints arent my concern so much in the models as the solid parts. Take Nekima's leg. the way she is posed she is standing on one tiny leg that the weight is, apparently, too much for. Other people may have had more success in keeping her stable then I have, but she is my own slowly leaning tower.

I am not entirely sure how I could go about pinning that, I've thought about using modelling putty to build up a rock formation for her other foot to rest against and add a second contact point.

I'm ok with large things (snowstorm, seamus, warhound titans) I just want them to have stable bases and parts. Look at the pandora avatar photo, you cant tell me you dont think the spirits coming out of her hands wont bend like crazy (Resin would probably be better then metal in their instance)

Edit - And thank you both for the Avatar bit, I don't really need a full spoiler on how they work, I was just curious if it was doubling the pool of masters or it was a transition, which you answered.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Dolomyte

[cerealkiller195]

From the information over the course of several interviews, it was said that masters can turn into avatars in game by meeting certain conditions. These conditions are not always "in line" with your objectives and sometimes you may not even want to use the avatar form.

I can agree that some models look VERY difficult to transport (lady j i'm looking at you) though I am blown away of how amazing they do actually look. I'm lucky enough to have Sonnia as my main master and her sculpt does look like one of the more "solidly constructed" ones. But regardless i feel other would be such a pain to transport without creating a separate layer in foam or a separate mini case all together.

[HoarcatsPride]

The joints arent my concern so much in the models as the solid parts. Take Nekima's leg. the way she is posed she is standing on one tiny leg that the weight is, apparently, too much for. Other people may have had more success in keeping her stable then I have, but she is my own slowly leaning tower.

I am not entirely sure how I could go about pinning that, I've thought about using modelling putty to build up a rock formation for her other foot to rest against and add a second contact point.

I'm ok with large things (snowstorm, seamus, warhound titans) I just want them to have stable bases and parts. Look at the pandora avatar photo, you cant tell me you dont think the spirits coming out of her hands wont bend like crazy (Resin would probably be better then metal in their instance)

I am guessing that they are made of metal. With Nekima ( I personally don't own her so I am not sure) you may be able to run a pin up the leg and make it a bit more supported. (not sure if you can though, or if you want to take the risk)

From the information over the course of several interviews, it was said that masters can turn into avatars in game by meeting certain conditions. These conditions are not always "in line" with your objectives and sometimes you may not even want to use the avatar form.

I can agree that some models look VERY difficult to transport (lady j i'm looking at you) though I am blown away of how amazing they do actually look. I'm lucky enough to have Sonnia as my main master and her sculpt does look like one of the more "solidly constructed" ones. But regardless i feel other would be such a pain to transport without creating a separate layer in foam or a separate mini case all together.

I am going to put her in some pluck foam, making her snug and secure

Edited July 23, 2011 by HoarcatsPride

[Justin]

In terms of what the avatars will do exactly I guess we will have to wait and see. All of the different pod casts have tried to pry info out of the designers but with little success. I don’t see why they would simply cave at this point. Anyway what they have said basically amounts to the avatar as being at the general same power level as the original master but with different abilities. Just because you make an avatar it doesn’t mean its the I win button. Also once you transform into an avatar there is no going back.

In terms of the size of the models I understand you concern. I think 40k is an excellent test group for the "growing model size" experiment. GW has been releasing larger and larger models (Primarily fliers such as the Storm Raven and Valk) and in my opinion they haven’t ruined the game because of their size... just their abilities. Also keep in mind that the size of the avatar might be intentional to limit when and where you can transform. Remember if you cant place a Malifaux model when being summoned then the models cant come in.

GW is a good example here. In my Dark Eldar army I run six raiders, three ravagers, and three venoms. I LOVE the new raider models, but they're just hard to transport in those numbers. But I still find it worth it because, well, the old ones were crap.

Now with Malifaux I'm only going to run one avatar, not twelve. If I can find a way to make 12 dark eldar vehicles work in my case, I can handle one avatar. And I think the visual appeal is worth it because, honestly, I wouldn't play any minis game without it.

[Bigmike]

Nekima and NE LCB are the only 2 things in the 3 inch foam, they both take up a terrible amount of space and Nekima is a brutally delicate model. That being said, with extra precautions such as pinning through the leg she is less in trouble of falling to her death. With that in mind however she is so worth the pain. :happypuppet1

[96p]

GW is a good example here. In my Dark Eldar army I run six raiders, three ravagers, and three venoms. I LOVE the new raider models, but they're just hard to transport in those numbers.

I transport mine in a box with a nice soft blanket xD

[Dolomyte]

GW is a good example here. In my Dark Eldar army I run six raiders, three ravagers, and three venoms. I LOVE the new raider models, but they're just hard to transport in those numbers. But I still find it worth it because, well, the old ones were crap.

Now with Malifaux I'm only going to run one avatar, not twelve. If I can find a way to make 12 dark eldar vehicles work in my case, I can handle one avatar. And I think the visual appeal is worth it because, honestly, I wouldn't play any minis game without it.

Hah, I play dark eldar too, they are fracking beautiful.

I appreciate what your saying, and agree that at some point special models need special consideration. Vehicles and the occasional GW Monsterous unit (Dark elf lord on a dragon) are Superhuge. I use the shoebox with a few t-shirts method for them.

My concern lies more in the stability of them. I've broken off a dragons wing before when I personally dropped it, but other then that the sucker is ultra-stable. GW rarely uses tiny limbs (The original dark eldar talos's arms were bendy, but not terribly so)

I am all for awesome looking models, and god knows that if one looks terrible I will constantly point it out to wyrd and anyone else who will listen. (lelu, aMarcus) But I think you can create amazing looking models without them being so breaky (Showgirls entire crew, aSonnia, AltSeamus, neLCB, Et al)

[Yazza]

i like the new wavatar models, ok some of them look a bit fragile, wanna ransport them just double up on protections. ok stability might be a problem with some, a weighted base does wonders with that though and placement on the base

[Iamwyrd]

I drove a pin all the way up nekimas leg and she is fine. Also I gave her plastic wings as I wasn't about to try and mess with metal ones.

And the avatars will probably be part resin as if they weren't due to their size they would cost the same if not more than ne lcb. So I believe they will he part resin to cut costs.

[Rathnard]

Nekima is currently one of two Neverborn models I don't plan to get (the other is the Cherub, for reasons unrelated to this thread). It's partly because I'm not super-keen on the playstyle she has, but mainly because I just don't want to deal with assembling and transporting that model. Nekima is stunning, but I don't think I can find an easy and secure way of tranporting her and for someone who's mainly getting around via bike or public transport, she just doesn't seem worth the effort.

I have to admit I have some concerns about these Avatar models as well. Sonnia, Seamus and Marcus shouldn't be too bad, and the Jury's still out on Lady Justice - it will all depend on how well those arms are designed and whether they can take the weight of the Ram/Crow appiritions. APandora however...Good Lord - she's a beautiful monster in many ways. I'd love to buy her and painting her would be a joy, but how am I supposed to transport her? All those tentacles and woes going everywhere are amazing, but I'll have to think up something truely special if I'm going to have any chance of moving her out of my house in one piece, let alone taking her down to the local club or flying across the Australia with her (and I would be).

I think what I'm coming to realise is that I'm going to need to make a specialist container specifically for transporting these models. Something with lots of padding and foam to hold it in place and possibly the ability to customise it for different models. If anyone has any thoughts about that, I'd love to hear them.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think what I'm coming to realise is that I'm going to need to make a specialist container specifically for transporting these models. Something with lots of padding and foam to hold it in place and possibly the ability to customise it for different models. If anyone has any thoughts about that, I'd love to hear them.

(My eyes bleed from reading that colour - dear god WHY??)

I suggest using powerful magnets and a sturdy metal container to secure the base in a such a way that the model won't move. No padding needed!

[Fenrir]

My main concern for the avatar models is going to be when they are released. If it's going to be one a month for the next 20 months, then somebody is going to be getting a kicking from avatars each week and they still won't have one available to use.

It'd be better if they released them all pretty rapidly, but I understand the business reasons for not doing so.

[ProdigalPunk]

Just do what I do and hire an armored car company. I personally prefer Brinks, but Dunbar has a good reputation too. The only problem is you need to plan ahead, as the companies insist on sporadic pick up times. If you can not afford an armored car company, then maybe the Ukrainians will sell you the empty containers they use to transport their Uranium in. If it can get nuclear materials over the mountains you should be mostly ok (I would still bring glue with you). If all else fails there is always Carbonite, it worked for Jaba.

[nilus]

My main concern for the avatar models is going to be when they are released. If it's going to be one a month for the next 20 months, then somebody is going to be getting a kicking from avatars each week and they still won't have one available to use.

I am sure Wyrd has kept in mind that not all crews will have Avatars(either because they are not out or because people just don't want to use them) and so they will be balanced with that in mind.

[Sholto]

It may be possible to assemble APandora so she comes apart for transport, don't really know, but for transport I would go with some pick and pluck foam trays, maybe 90mm will do it. If not, two smaller trays sandwiched with the top one upside down. Or just pop it in a box and pack cotton wool around it - that's what I do with my Peacekeeper.

I have to agree though - as great as the models look, I have some concerns about the transport and playability of them. It is a problem I would rather have than not, on balance, since the models do look soooooo good

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well if one person has an avatar and the other doesn't you can either agree not to use the avatar on hand, or if you have an appropriate base on hand and the book let them proxy their avatar form. Sure they might not be as experienced with it but its something.

[Fenrir]

I am sure Wyrd has kept in mind that not all crews will have Avatars(either because they are not out or because people just don't want to use them) and so they will be balanced with that in mind.

We'll have to wait and see about that.