Hamelin is better than we think

[magicpockets]

Just make the spell once per Crew per turn, that means you can cast it with your pet totem but you can't cast it twice.

That's a workable idea I think.

Also, re Matt (^^) I don't think discarding a card is the right approach - it would make Bully almost pointless, there should be a chance/difficulty element built in and I'm now leaning towards a Ruffian style fix, but with a higher number. This would make Masters becoming insignificant less of an issue as they can soulstone the total (whereas if it's an opposed duel Hamelin can still SS it to avoid being targeted).

I think with this and making Lure Malifaux Citizen a one per turn per crew spell it would make a big difference to his mechanic - I'd certainly feel like less of a douche playing as him.

[Drake]

That's a workable idea I think.

Also, re Matt (^^) I don't think discarding a card is the right approach - it would make Bully almost pointless, there should be a chance/difficulty element built in and I'm now leaning towards a Ruffian style fix, but with a higher number. This would make Masters becoming insignificant less of an issue as they can soulstone the total (whereas if it's an opposed duel Hamelin can still SS it to avoid being targeted).

I think with this and making Lure Malifaux Citizen a one per turn per crew spell it would make a big difference to his mechanic - I'd certainly feel like less of a douche playing as him.

I think both of these approaches are just enough of a tweak to make him more fun and playable, without breaking him. Ruffian Style TN Wp duel for Bully (but no negative flips built into this) and once per turn per crew for the Stolen.

One thing to bear in mind though....should Stolen be made Rare in that case? Otherwise you could have a Stolen at the back of the board just summoning a new Stolen each turn generating a hoard of them, making it still impossible to kill Hamelin, as they become numerous and out of the way. Also he then has an extra action himself as he wont be casting this spell.

Just a thought for consideration...

[Ratty]

stolen don't have magical extension.

[Drake]

stolen don't have magical extension.

Yes sorry, meant Obedient Wretch or whatever the Totem is that can generate more Stolen.

My point remains though for consideration. More models can be made everyturn, out of harms way and somewhere difficult to get to and freeing up action points for Hamelin. Not saying this wont work, just highlighting the effect these changes would have.

[ZiggyQubert]

I like the idea of Lure Malifaux Citizen being once per turn per crew, and making it a spell, not so hot on making the stolen rare 1, rare 2 would be OK in my opinion, rare 3 might make the most sense (as they do come in a 3 pack) if you feel the need to restrict them.

As for the resist for ht1 and insignificant models to target Hamelin, if that was added I feel that it should still be difficult to target him, say wp->14 or wp->12 with a - flip (the idea is to change it from impossible to very difficult to do) I could see gremlins not taking the - for the flip.

I could also see some mechanic such as if a ht 1 or insignificant model wishes to target Hamelin it must discard 1 card, Hamelin may draw one card when this happens

Again I feal that it should be taken from an impossible to target Hamelin mechanic to a really difficult to target him.

Another idea would be - HT1 and Insignificant models wishing to target Hamelin must win a wp->13 duel or the action fails, the targeting model is at - unless it is a focused or channeled action, or is a gremlin

A little more complicated but might make more seance

[ZiggyQubert]

Although on more consideration not sure that making Lure Malifaux Citizen a spell is the way to go, then you cast it with the Obident Wretch and it frees up an action for hamelin (very powerfull in my opinion)

[Necromorph]

TN->WP or WP->Wp IMO...if it's a target number, just make it high.

I don't agree with limiting stolen to rare #. They are waaaay to easy to kill, and I've already explained why limiting them is bad earlier...I'm all for once per crew per turn...as that's how I've always played it tbh. As far as I know, (1) Lure Malifaux Citizen is a talent/ability, not a spell, so i didn't know that the Wretch could even do it, lol.

[Ratty]

TN->WP or WP->Wp IMO...if it's a target number, just make it high.

I don't agree with limiting stolen to rare #. They are waaaay to easy to kill, and I've already explained why limiting them is bad earlier...I'm all for once per crew per turn...as that's how I've always played it tbh. As far as I know, (1) Lure Malifaux Citizen is a talent/ability, not a spell, so i didn't know that the Wretch could even do it, lol.

The Obedient Wretch can't, we were discussing giving it a casting value which would make it a spell not an ability, however that opens it up to be used by the OW.

[Fetid Strumpet]

My books are out on loan for possible new player converts at the moment, so I can't look this up at the moment, but I thought Magical Extension couldn't copy spells which reference specific models? Wouldn't that prevent the Obedient Wretch from summoning more stolen? That's all I can offer to this part of the discussion, as I haven't had any direct experience with Hamelin's play style.

Also I agree Bully's static # should be difficult to get past. It should be possible to target Hamelin at least once a turn if you really need to, but it should cost you one of your good cards to do it. I'd favor a 14. If the average model's willpower is 5 this would require on average a 9+ to be dropped. For crews that have an average of 3wp that would require burning an 11 or better. I think this would be very acceptable.

[magicpockets]

I thought Magical Extension couldn't copy spells which reference specific models? Wouldn't that prevent the Obedient Wretch from summoning more stolen? That's all I can offer to this part of the discussion, as I haven't had any direct experience with Hamelin's play style.

That's the Doppleganger's ability mimic

Also I agree Bully's static # should be difficult to get past. It should be possible to target Hamelin at least once a turn if you really need to, but it should cost you one of your good cards to do it. I'd favor a 14. If the average model's willpower is 5 this would require on average a 9+ to be dropped. For crews that have an average of 3wp that would require burning an 11 or better. I think this would be very acceptable.

I'd say 15 to put it a notch above Ruffian, but I agree it doesn't need to be more complicated than that. Plus it leaves the opponent chance to cheat which is good for Hamelin.

Re making Stolen rare, I don't think there's any point in this. It's a (1) action which (if they make it a spell) may not even go off. Plus Hamelin needs multiple Stolen to stay alive, which he's less likely to do if we're talking about softening Bully so he's easier to hit. Plus - and this is a BIG thing - some of us have purchased 6/9 stolen and it would be very annoying if we'd wasted our money

I honestly think making Lure Malifaux Citizen a once per turn per crew spell (which the OC could try to cast with her lower Ca or which cannot be copied by magical extension) and making Bully work similar to Ruffin would be all he needs to make him more accessible.

However, this would all need to be playtested to see how it actually works in practice.

Edited June 16, 2011 by magicpockets

[Sandwich]

I definately agree on the Lure Malifaux Citizen change, once per crew per turn allows him to free up an AP and makes his totem an invaluable asset to his crew in the same way Colette or The Dreamer need their totems.

As for Bully, I think a Simple Wp->13 is the way to go.

Any higher and it'll be as if nothing changed at all.

Realize that he can still easily drop a large group of your model's Wp by 2, and then an additional 2 if he's utilizing the swarm.

Most models with a Wp of 5 are going to be rocking Wp 2 or 3 if they're lucky.

And then understand that once you even get past Bully, he's still got a Df of 5 and usually a lot of SS.

Flipping a 10+ twice to hit him is really steep, especially with how badly he can potentially punish you for cheating.

I can see a Wp->14 duel if we want him to be nigh invulnerable, but I'd be far more comfortable with a Wp->13 duel.

And no way in hell should the Stolen become Rare 3.

That's far too limiting on an already limited crew, he's got only a select few models that he can even take, and by removing the aspect of a Stolen Swarm, you remove a very key strategy that most Hamelin players utilize for great justice.

[magicpockets]

I can see a Wp->14 duel if we want him to be nigh invulnerable, but I'd be far more comfortable with a Wp->13 duel.

If Ruffian is WP->13 (I can't remember) this would make sense then, you're right about the -2/-4 WP which he can inflict.

Be interesting to see if any of this gets picked up by Nathan or Eric, be cool if our random musings and debating can make a difference

[Odin1981]

I definately agree on the Lure Malifaux Citizen change, once per crew per turn allows him to free up an AP and makes his totem an invaluable asset to his crew in the same way Colette or The Dreamer need their totems.

As for Bully, I think a Simple Wp->13 is the way to go.

Any higher and it'll be as if nothing changed at all.

Realize that he can still easily drop a large group of your model's Wp by 2, and then an additional 2 if he's utilizing the swarm.

Most models with a Wp of 5 are going to be rocking Wp 2 or 3 if they're lucky.

And then understand that once you even get past Bully, he's still got a Df of 5 and usually a lot of SS.

Flipping a 10+ twice to hit him is really steep, especially with how badly he can potentially punish you for cheating.

I can see a Wp->14 duel if we want him to be nigh invulnerable, but I'd be far more comfortable with a Wp->13 duel.

And no way in hell should the Stolen become Rare 3.

That's far too limiting on an already limited crew, he's got only a select few models that he can even take, and by removing the aspect of a Stolen Swarm, you remove a very key strategy that most Hamelin players utilize for great justice.

The only thing I said was Rare 3 and the make target spell that makes dude insig become non master only I'm not for anything else that has been mentioned. I'm in no way, shape, or form messing with your core mechanics don't lump me in with other suggestions that were made. I'm a Colette player I would no questions asked, accept reduction in range illusionist and blinding flash reduced to 12" range.

[Omenbringer]

Plus Hamelin needs multiple Stolen to stay alive, which he's less likely to do if we're talking about softening Bully so he's easier to hit.

He only needs one any where on the board to stay alive (like I said just hide the stolen in the back field behind a large terrain feature and he is guarnateed to come back at least once).

Even with "softening" Bully (so he could be targetted with a successful WP duel) he still has 12 Wds, a decent Df, and access to Healing from Abandoned Soul.

[jdomin2]

Ran a list tonight against pandora testing:

Lure as a 17 once per crew/turn spell with no suit.

Bully wp-14 duel

and Insig on enemy models goes away if he dies.

None of this felt terrible or too constraing. Gameplan for using stolen was different because I had to invest resources to actually make one. Only got like 3 off the whole game cuz I needed cards to actually hit stuff.Bully as a duel helps him get cards because my opponent wanted to make sure he passed any duels if he wanted to attack Hamelin. Also Nix bubble and stolen wp debuff helps make bully stronger than a normal wp-14 duel.

[magicpockets]

The only thing I said was Rare 3 and the make target spell that makes dude insig become non master only I'm not for anything else that has been mentioned.

Fair enough, but there's no real reason for either. What difference would limiting Stolen to 3 have on the game as generally people keep one or two at the back and then summon/sac one in the same turn for -2WP? And why make it non-master? You have a higher chance of resisting it with better stats and use soulstones and - if suggested changes were made - you have a better chance of beating the Ruffin style duel. Should we be suggesting his melee attack can only target non-masters too?

He only needs one any where on the board to stay alive (like I said just hide the stolen in the back field behind a large terrain feature and he is guarnateed to come back at least once).

Not true at all. Sure he "only needs one", but they're too easy to kill so one isn't as big a security blanket as you'd suggest. Also some play styles for certain scenarios rely on having multiple stolen so you'd really be messing with a core mechanic there. And lastly, as I think Sandwich said, Hamelin already has a limited model pool and doing that would make it even more restrictive.

Even with "softening" Bully (so he could be targetted with a successful WP duel) he still has 12 Wds, a decent Df, and access to Healing from Abandoned Soul.

Right, so your answer - bearing in mind you're "not messing with any core mechanics" - is to effectively say he doesn't need the ability to come back when killed so we'll effectively get rid of it?

Ran a list tonight against pandora testing:

Lure as a 17 once per crew/turn spell with no suit.

Bully wp-14 duel

and Insig on enemy models goes away if he dies.

From chats we've had offline I think Lure Malifaux Citizen would be better suited as a 14 to cast, meaning he needs a 7+ when he's first on the board and an 11+ when he comes back. If it was 17 (bearing in mind his card mechanic) you'd almost never get it off once he returns to the game at -4Ca.

And I personally feel losing insig if he dies would be too much of a change when mixed with the other two - there's a difference between weakening him enough so he's not an "auto-win" button and making him a weak master. Overall he should be on a power level with Collette and LCB - and I'd say making Lure a cast and making Bully ruffian esq is enough.

Having said that, we're play testing it against Collette at the weekend so will post back our thoughts too.

[Necromorph]

Honestly I think Colette is right up there with him in power, the reason you don't see as many posts complaining about her is because she has such a high learning curve and most people haven't seen her played correctly yet.

Totally against some of the stuff I've been seeing. Making LMC a cast (not a fan already of this idea) of a 17 defeats the purpose of the Wretch being able to do it as it would be very hard for her to cast (again burning all those cards Ham doesn't have).

Rare 3 restriction on Stolen would just be retarded...aside from breaking his mechanics and , as Magic said, restricting an already restricted crew, they are far too easy to kill. Odin prolly just wants them to be rare 3 so that his Duet can kill all of them in 1 activation, haha.

[magicpockets]

Odin prolly just wants them to be rare 3 so that his Duet can kill all of them in 1 activation, haha.

[DonB]

I find this thread amusing. I was under the impression that Hamelin was fair and not unbalanced, yet here is this thread. Ironic.

Let him stay as he is at least until I've had a chance to get my teeth stuck into the actual game.

Painting models has been fun, planning for playing is OK, but I really want the chance to play them now!

[jdomin2]

From chats we've had offline I think Lure Malifaux Citizen would be better suited as a 14 to cast, meaning he needs a 7+ when he's first on the board and an 11+ when he comes back. If it was 17 (bearing in mind his card mechanic) you'd almost never get it off once he returns to the game at -4Ca.

And I personally feel losing insig if he dies would be too much of a change when mixed with the other two - there's a difference between weakening him enough so he's not an "auto-win" button and making him a weak master. Overall he should be on a power level with Collette and LCB - and I'd say making Lure a cast and making Bully ruffian esq is enough.

Having said that, we're play testing it against Collette at the weekend so will post back our thoughts too.

Honestly after only one match I think you could be right on the 17 being too high. As I pointed out I could rarely do too much else in a turn that I summoned a Stolen.

I also disagree with the assessment he should be on the power level of LCB and collette. No one or everyone should be on their power level.

I would like to see his insig go away if he dies, makes you think twice about just making him come back to that stolen.

I think wp-13 on Bully is just right though. His debuffs on the wp are more than strong enough, and anything to generate multiple cheats fuels his hand.

BTW anyone play against the Freikorps Specialist? Seems to destroy the rat swarm on paper.

[Math Mathonwy]

Overall he should be on a power level with Collette and LCB

What's your reasoning here? Why do you think that he should be top tier as opposed to middle tier? An honest question, mind. If Wyrd aim for balance, it would be easier to cuddle five masters than to buff fifteen of them.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Fetid Strumpet]

But balance is very difficult in a game where multiple options are available to every player. If we are talking every crew needs to be balanced against every crew I don't know how likely that is to happen. Malifaux as a whole is very well balanced because of how the VP system works. You declare your faction, find out what you are doing, then hire your crew.

Crews which don't allow interaction, or will pretty much always win, unless their controller makes a mistake, against other crews is where my personal attention lies. For example The Dreamer comes very close to this mark. In many games, but not all, you are hoping the Dreamer makes a mistake that you can capitalize on. If he doesn't you often don't win. The Dreamer is strong, but not broken. He is difficult to master, and positioning and timing are critical to using him. He however allows interaction, (except in some cases the Alp bomb) and thus though strong he is not broken or that unfun (subjective) to play against.

This prevention of interaction is why I think the Alp Bomb is so hated. The fact that when you play it feels like you're caught in a net and can't do anything is exceptionally frustrating. And I think this is the crux of why some people think Hamelin is too strong.

When an opponent plays against him they often feel like nothing they do in the game matters. They can't whittle down his crew, kill a rat within 6" of a Rat Catcher and new rat pops up with an activation to spend. Kill a Rat Catcher, 3 rats pop themselves and look a brand new catcher. Kill Hamelin's Stolen, oh look he just summoned 3 more. Kill Hamelin, oh look he just came back to life. Add on top of this that when Hamelin begins to work well his crew not only renders the actions your models can take somewhat irrelevant, he can take away their very ability to even take the actions.

I don't really care what power level Hamelin ends up at. I personally don't care if he is the strongest Master in the game. In any complex game like Malifaux there is going to be a difference in power level between certain options, the time to act on it is when the Master either breaks the game (I.E. infinite loops for example) or when leaving them unchanged is bad for the game as a whole. The latter is where Hamelin currently stands in my opinion.

I do think that the discussion here though has been very helpful for me as a person thinking about rules systems. And I have appreciated Magicpockets, and the other players who actually play Hamelin's opinions.

[Drake]

:ditto:

[magicpockets]

BTW anyone play against the Freikorps Specialist? Seems to destroy the rat swarm on paper.

(0) to ignore modifiers -> Pipes -> cheat severe damage -> obey detonate tanks -> swarm is fine

[magicpockets]

What's your reasoning here? Why do you think that he should be top tier as opposed to middle tier?

I guess my point is he should be no higher than the better masters and the point of this thread has been to reign him in, not cuddle him totally. I don't mind suggesting things to bring him level with "2nd place" - anything beyond that I feel is overstepping the line and solely down to Wyrd (naturally all of this is down to Wyrd, but you know what I mean)