Slaughtered by Kirai

[RotatingPanda]

Pretty new to Malifaux and played my third game tonight.

My Crew

Lady Justice

3 Death Marshalls

The Judge

His Crew (I think?)

Kirai

Lost Love

Datsue-Ba

Gaki

Shikomi

So, anyway, schemes and strategies were mostly irrelevant as he rushed up, slaughtered the Judge with the Shikomi and then just juggled spirits around, healing any that I managed to damage and whittling my force down.

So, I considered playing a second game with the Cult of December box set but realized one of that crew's big advantages, armor, doesn't matter.

Ignore terrain, ignore armor, only half damage from non-magical sources, Immediate Revenge, Terrifying...I feel like there's something I'm missing. I have a long history of playing Warhammer 40K and this just feels really, really unbalanced. Not much else has in the game so far so I feel like I'm missing something big.

What am I missing!? How the hell do you beat Kirai!?

P.S. How do you change your signature to include those neat little pictures of what crews you have?

[LordFett]

What am I missing!? How the hell do you beat Kirai!?

Non-Living crews scare the hell out of Kirai. I went against the Dreamer Thursday and gave up at the end of the 3rd turn.

Him:

Dreamer/LCB

Lelu

Lilitu

Copellius

Day Dreams

Stitched Together

Me:

Kirai

Seishin x3

Gaki x3

Onryo X2

Datse Ba

A couple day dreams moved up and popped out Lelu and Lilitu on top of Datse Ba and finished her off before I could get Kirai up to swap her with a Gaki.

Then they started man handling an Onryo which I saved.

Copellius decided to come play with Kirai. I finished him off the next turn with an Onryo, but LCB came and made Kirai cry and then die. I hadn't activated her yet (I wanted to get rid of Copellius first so she didn't have to make a morale duel) so I lost all of my Seishin and then she died when I activated her from poison.

With a non-living crew she can only get seishin from her own minion's deaths.

So while Kirai's crew would've eaten through your armor, the constructs and magical damage would have shut her down a bit.

[Hansel]

You already got some Guild, right? Get Sonnia's crew. Lots of Magical weapons and Magical sources to get by the Spirit half damage stuff. I played a game w/ Sonnia against Kirai, and thought I was totally losing by the third turn, but by the fifth had killed Kirai and handily won the game.

Not that, you know, Sonnia's a magic trick to take down Kirai, just that it might be a little easier than with Lady Justice.

[poulpox]

Pretty new to Malifaux and played my third game tonight.

My Crew

Lady Justice

3 Death Marshalls

The Judge

What am I missing!? How the hell do you beat Kirai!?

Hi!

All in all some match ups can be quite difficult, but it's more about knowing which models are critical for the opponent, which ones to take out first, refusing to give away some of your stuff or concentrating on the schemes (if you have time to!)

I've played only once against Kirai, and although I was experienced with my own crew (Zoraida) I didn't know what happened to me and lost really badly; the more complex crews require time to get used of, their playstyle their weakness, etc...

LadyJ is a rather one dimentional crew, but you have access to a varied bunch which might help you: when facing a Terrifying crew, the Governor Proxy is usually a good idea to boost up your Wp. Then Witchling Stalkers are much more usefull I think against a Spirits crew than Death Marshals as they have magic weapons, so no more half Wds! Plus when they die they explode causing more Wds to your opponent; see him thinking twice before sending his spirits ahead. Maybe Austringers could help avoiding his bulk crew to hide too far back, although their damage is rather low, it might cause a bit of threat to Kirai herself and her Seishins; if he hasn't got the Seishin up yet (it seems he didn't take any in his list) then you have clear shot straight to her as Austringers ignore LoS.

What about using a mix of Stalkers and Constructs, like a Peacebringer? It can go really fast ahead and Kirai can't raise spirits from it.

The joy of this game is that you can decide right before you play what kind of models you want; you have to find those which will be the most useful for you against him.

Hope this helps!

[RotatingPanda]

Sooo, it sounds like I suffered from "I own the Lady J box set while he owns plenty of stuff and can pick and choose." Sigh. Alright, so, I was kind of hosed no matter what I did.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Lady J and semi-regret picking her up. I think I'm going to focus on Rasputina and build myself a nice large Cult of December crew.

Thanks everyone

[Hansel]

Don't get too discouraged, Panda (although I know it's easy to when you lose, especially when you're new and not sure if a game is balanced or all about buying the best models).

In my experience Malifaux really isn't a "richest player wins" type of game. The fact that he has a much bigger model pool to draw from is an indicator that he has a much longer experience to draw from as well, which is what likely won him the game.

[RotatingPanda]

Oh, no worries Hansel, I'm far from discouraged. It was just kind of shocking how powerful Kirai and her crew seemed. I'm sure I'll run into other "surprises" the more I play. As well, I don't think the Lady J box-set is a good match for Kirai, especially in the hands of a beginner.

The guy I played doesn't have a lot of experience with Malifaux (I had to correct him on a few rules) but he has a long history of competitive gaming and I think he approaches it with a more cut-throat attitude that I do. In my local group, we're all pretty laid back and were really drawn to the story element of Malifaux, whereas this guy came to win.

But my brother (whom I live with) gets his Nicodem and Leveticus crews this coming week so I can practice against him and start to develop strategies, learn the ins and outs of my crews, and proxy some things to figure out what my next purchases will be

[Hansel]

With my first few games of Malifaux, I was shocked at power a lot, which could be discouraging. Not saying you don't know this, but after playing a little more, I realized that nothing is unbeatable, and as long as I didn't approach the game from a "I don't know enough, I'm going to lose mindset" (which I often do in games), I had a lot of fun and a good chance of winning.

Knowing other crews is an important skill in Malifaux, and one that comes with time. I got decimated twice by Von Schill + crew, and was scared of him, but in my third game against him took a different Master and won! That game taught me not to be afraid of anything.

Also, RE: competitive gamers. I totally know what you're talking about. I sort of don't like that label, as I like to think the reason I play a game where you can win or lose is to compete, but there are definitely people who aren't fun to play against because they don't give the other player the benefit of the doubt or are in general jerks.

Like, if someone's measuring range to one of my models, and we're all squinting to see if they've got it, I just wave my hand and say, "close enough dude, looks good to me."* I want to play by the rules, but I'm not going to go down to the micron to make sure I win (maybe in a tournament, maybe).

My priority in my local games is to have fun, do my best to compete, and make sure the other player has fun so they mentally flag me as a fun dude to play with and want to play more games with me.

*this is what I mean by "benefit of the doubt". In one of my first games, a player didn't give this to me (it was so close it was hard to tell and could've gone either way, but he said I didn't have range), and, even though in his mind he was playing totally by the rules, I kinda thought he was being a dick about it, you know?** Especially since I was a new player.

**and no, Portlanders, it's none of you. This player isn't on these boards, as far as I know, and I don't think he's a bad guy or anything. I'd totally play him again, but when I think of playing Malifaux locally I'm not like "Oh! I hope I get to play against him tonight!" This is what I mean by mentally flagging someone as fun to play with.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Hansel

[RotatingPanda]

I was going to use the term WAAC (Win At All Costs) player but don't know if that's strictly a 40K thing or not. I mean, the objective of the game will always be to win but the point, as I see it, is to have fun and some players just seem to lose sight of that.

One thing this guy does that bugs me is that he proxies certain models and uses little tokens or dice or whatever but he does own one of them. If we try to proxy something that we own 0 copies of it (for example, play-testing something to see if we want to buy it), he makes a big deal.

And I'm glad you pointed out that knowing what other Masters/crews can do as being an important skill. The more I learn about the game, the more I find myself going back and re-reading Masters and the like and figuring out what combinations are out there and what I can expect in future games.

[Hansel]

One thing this guy does that bugs me is that he proxies certain models and uses little tokens or dice or whatever but he does own one of them. If we try to proxy something that we own 0 copies of it (for example, play-testing something to see if we want to buy it), he makes a big deal.

That's kind of lame, IMO. I haven't proxied anything yet, but IMO it's always cool to proxy, unless it's a tourney. I mean, it's a game, right? You might be curious about something and want to try it out. Why should I care if you proxy in a friendly game? I'm still getting a game, and we're both getting a broader taste of it and probably a more fun game than if I refused to let you take anything you didn't in fact own.

That's the point of tournaments: we compete with what we've got and what we've practiced with. In a friendly game, it's more than cool to be like, "I want to try this guy out." I suppose I might get annoyed if someone didn't own any models and showed up night after night with an entire proxied crew, but I don't think that really happens.

[Dark Alleycat]

Well,I think if a person has the original model,and they have another model who's look they enjoy much more,that as long as everyone is clear about it even proxies are fine.

And yes Panda..certain crews will allways have horrid match ups. But none of them are unconquerable...Every master will have situations they shine in,and situations where they are left struggling.

But yes,for dealign with spirits,arcanists and other unpleasent individuals like that,a couple witchling stalkers to run with lady J will make for amusing times. They are the most manueverable of the 4pt guild models,and a good all around unit.

[Ratty]

The trick with Kirai is to start clearing away Seishin as quickly as possible. She relies on them a lot for protection. If she doesn't have any she can't be nearly as aggressive because Kirai on her own is really fragile. Nino might be a good choice for this as he can easily take out one or two a turn if he can get a shot on them, Austringers might also work well as she can't hide behind things. Witchling Stalkers go through spirits like butter. I actually find fast Close Combat crews the hardest to face with Kirai, the Viks are horrific to face. Colette is also not pleasant with Cassandra being able to move very fast and breath fire.

[CannonFodder]

Kirai is one of my common opponents. A couple things I've learned

1) Johan is a merc with 3 inch reach and magical weapon... Loves to flurry in the middle of spirits. They are scared of him.

2) convicted gunslinger is fun because she is easy to hit and she transfers to siechin, also since they usually clump up Suppressing fire is mean, and the Seichin only block Damage not effects from .

2) Datsue-Ba is a key to her force. Worth using a soulstone or two to take out. His extra movement get things where they need to be, and Kirai is Emo at heart and a second healing flip is really good. without him her force loses about 30% of its synergy.

3) any chance to shoot Sechin BEFORE she puts up her beacon is worth it. Once she is out of seichin she is like Colette without soulstones. has to work to get back to a safe zone.

4) Lost love is usually hiding in the back of the table. and will bring her back as she dies. if you have the opportunity to take it... do it. losing her plan B causes your opponent to play more defensively.

5) if you can take out Ikiryo in one activation its worth it, partial damage is worthless. Yes kirai can summon another, but she also usually sacrifices it for life and its lose is unexpected card loss from her hand.

6) don't swarm into her 8" with anything other than constructs. they will generate extra seichin. avoid giving her extra ammo.

In short, the goal against her is not to kill her, to do everything possible to reduce the crews effectiveness. killing her would be nice, but its virtually impossible, remember the goal is not to kill her its the objectives. reduce her effectiveness and keep her contained and go for the VP points.

Lastly if you see Jack draw in her crew.... your screwed.

Comments on proxies: Personally I don't like them unless they are totems that have not come out yet. I'm not a fan of how wyrd release matching totems for master 2 months after the master is released.

Edited May 22, 2011 by CannonFodder

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

This is also a harder game to understand and see the balance, it is not necessarily crew to crew balance there are a lot of 60/40 matches like Kirai and Lady J. 2 things that balance that.

1. Faction to faction balance, and traditionally you declare the faction after you know strategy and you pick your crew based on knowing your opponents faction. Lady J against ressers, out of all the resser masters Lady J is designed to have counters against them except for Kiara.

2. Crew selection doesn't have to be themed. You can bring Witchling it Ortegas with Lady J.

I'm glad to hear you are not discouraged. Lady J is an amazing master it OS just important to not think of her as one dimensional. Keep her back from danger she is a bit squishy. If you got 2-3, high masks in your hand then throw her out in the fray, because she can really do some damage with riposte and make your opponent think twice.

[magicpockets]

when facing a Terrifying crew, the Governor Proxy is usually a good idea to boost up your Wp.

Until you fail a morale duel in LoS

[poulpox]

Until you fail a morale duel in LoS

Now why would you do such a thing?

Panda if you picked LadyJ to start, it is most likely because you like the fluff around her. I therefore wouldn't change master but as Mr. Bigglesworth put it I would open my crew options. It's really not a "bigger wallet wins" thing, simply having a bit of this and that, a blister at a time to give youself more options; you will find that there are a few models which are nicely polyvalent and worth having. Those Death Marshals will come in handy in a game vs. someone else than Kirai, so they're not a bad investment.

[RotatingPanda]

I don't necesarrily believe that "bigger wallet wins" but a lot of people are suggesting certain models (Austringers, Witchling Stalkers, etc.) to help with my crew and, at this point in time, those are not options for me. I have the Lady J crew, the Rasputina crew and the Seasmus crew and that's it.

Honestly, it was a learning experience. I know with each game, the rules will make more sense and I'll get a better handle on things but instead of getting frustrated, I figured I would turn to the community and benefit from -their- wisdom and experience.

Regarding thematic lists, I do want to keep certain themes to my builds. In the case of Lady J, I want to stick to non-Ortega Guild assets; not too limiting but my group has a big Ortega player who is theming all Ortega with no Guild resources so we're sort of dual-theming in that sense. Artificial handicap to our crews? Maybe but we'll enjoy the challenge of making them work.

I think I need to read about how to use Lady J. People say she's pretty obvious and all but what's the point of a melee character that's fragile...? Again, that question is rhetorical and I'm sure I'll figure it out/read about it in time.

I have to break out of my 40K mentality and start to think like a Malifaux player

Final Thought: I'm loving the stories and fluff of the setting.

Also, how do you make those neat sigs? I like being able to see what Crews people play at a glance

[Hookers]

Lastly if you see Jack draw in her crew.... your screwed.

I don't know why this would be the case with her more so than any other master or list, but on the flip side, if she sees Jack Daw in your list she is screwed. All of her magical damage comes from spells that must target non-spirits. Uh oh. She will usually have to focus strike Bash from a Seishin gangbang to even have a chance at killing him, and he can kill seishin quite easily, ensuring kill scheme.

For the sig, just edit your profile and the pictures are in the expanded smiley list that the forum has. There are a bunch of malifaux specific smileys like :crows:aura:tomes:ranged:melee:blast:snowstorm:deadrider:stitched:masks:hoodedrider:teddy:+fate

you get the idea..

[Ratty]

I don't know why this would be the case with her more so than any other master or list, but on the flip side, if she sees Jack Daw in your list she is screwed. All of her magical damage comes from spells that must target non-spirits. Uh oh. She will usually have to focus strike Bash from a Seishin gangbang to even have a chance at killing him, and he can kill seishin quite easily, ensuring kill scheme.

The reason Jack Daw is so nasty with Kirai is she has the ability to position it much more precisely than other crews. She can swap it's placement with another spirt. Ikiryo can cause it to move towards it up to 4", Datsu-ba can make it walk twice a turn if you haev the cards. So your not even stuck with it in one position with it's no cheat aura, you can prime it away from your crew and then move it on later in the turn.

[heavyset]

Pretty new to Malifaux and played my third game tonight.

My Crew

Lady Justice

3 Death Marshalls

The Judge

His Crew (I think?)

Kirai

Lost Love

Datsue-Ba

Gaki

Shikomi

So, anyway, schemes and strategies were mostly irrelevant as he rushed up, slaughtered the Judge with the Shikomi and then just juggled spirits around, healing any that I managed to damage and whittling my force down.

So, I considered playing a second game with the Cult of December box set but realized one of that crew's big advantages, armor, doesn't matter.

Ignore terrain, ignore armor, only half damage from non-magical sources, Immediate Revenge, Terrifying...I feel like there's something I'm missing. I have a long history of playing Warhammer 40K and this just feels really, really unbalanced. Not much else has in the game so far so I feel like I'm missing something big.

What am I missing!? How the hell do you beat Kirai!?

P.S. How do you change your signature to include those neat little pictures of what crews you have?

I thought you played well last night manno! I have played a few games with kira and have done my homework on her tactics and how to work her crew. I went in with a plan and the knowage on how to exicute. but again you played well!

[heavyset]

And im sorry if I came across like i wanted to win at all costs...that was the first game i have finished playing and I do like to win. And its the first game where I got to use her abilities casue my other games were against neverborn, so I couldn't use much of my crew... So I would love a rematch, a fun rematch...and yes I would love to play your december crew too. again sorry.

[ThePandaDirector]

*giggles*

*stares dumbly*

*gigles some more*

Sorry... err... nice avatar..

What was the question?

*stares dumbly*

*giggles*

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I don't necesarrily believe that "bigger wallet wins" but a lot of people are suggesting certain models (Austringers, Witchling Stalkers, etc.) to help with my crew and, at this point in time, those are not options for me. I have the Lady J crew, the Rasputina crew and the Seasmus crew and that's it.

That is the thing though is this game is cheap compared to others. You got 3 crews that span over 3 factions. If you focused on one faction you could have 2 solid crews with plenty of available assets for the same cost. Not to criticize why you bought those crews, but the bigger wallet case doesn't apply like it does in other miniature games because the cost of buying a faction is cheaper than buying saying a 40k 2k list, or 2 lists in Warmahordes.

To play this game in a truly competitive matter, the best player can shine with 1/2 or less of a given faction.

As for Lady J tactica you can find a lot of good info here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21193

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20187

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/

Hope these help. She is not a straight forward master, she could be but she is a bit harder to play because she is a little more fragile. She is the best in melee hands down, but if you want a more forgiving melee beast Lilith would be my suggestion.

I started with Lady J and won very few times with her, than I switched around with other factions/masters. Then have come back to her and have lost 1 out of the last 6 games with her. She is a master if you understand the objective of the games and how to utilize such a fragile master you will see how she can even beat down a Kirai. It is important to understand the death of your master means nothing in this game, it is all about the VP. I rarely have her still standing on the board but she usually can do an incredible amount of damage before going down.

She is also one of the few masters that can one hit any master on the board. Granted some take the red joker. Her max damage output is 17 in one hit (I think the only thing higher is McMourning's 20 dmg dissesction). I have done a few times even against hard to wound 2 models. Her max without the red joker is 11, what can stand up against that. So to balance that incredible amount of damage you can drop is to give an average stat line minus cb and dmg.

Learn the game first get more comfortable with cover, terrain setup distances then come back to her. You may be able to play her a little better.

I don't care about playing thematic lists, however I tend to run Lady J with a so called thematic list.

Lady J

3 Death Marshals

Judge

Executioner

Scales of Justice

Is my core 30ss list.

[RotatingPanda]

Mr. Bigglesworth: I actually purchased Lady J and Rasputina but Seamus I won at a local convention so I didn't actually buy him. And I certainly recognize that this game is far cheaper than any other miniatures game on the market...but that doesn't mean I'm not painfully poor at the moment. Oh, and thanks for the links!

Right now, I'm pretty thrilled with the responses from everyone and it's nice to know their is such a large, knowledgeable community to come to when I have questions or concerns.

[greenbull]

Why didn't you put a little reply here to the 2 posts your opponent put here? He doesn't sound like a bad person to me, going by his posts.