VonSchills & Librarian = indestructable

[CannonFodder]

Not sure if this was posted before but played a game where I gave The librarian a as her suit each turn, and kept her in range of Von Schills for slow to die. Each time she got killed she did the healing spell on herself and healed back up. She must have done this 10+ time because my opponent got Killjoy to charge her, and triggered over power a couple times. Basically needs a 4+ for the spell to work and then heals. easy to cheat if needed. Had my ronin kill killjoy and black blood tried to kill her a couple more times. It wasn't until later when she took point and Leveticus got her as she got a black joker on her healing flip.

Biggest weakness is any ability to force negatives on casting flips. and the black joker.

I picked up the librarian before I pickup the full von schills box, so I was going to get rid it in a trade. But now considering it a staple for slaughter strategy.

[Ratty]

It's quite easy to deal with if you know how. Most Crews have a way to deal with the issue. The easiest is to get Von Schill seperated from the Librarian. Taelors hammer Strike, Lure, Obey etc can all get Von Schill more than 6" away from the librarian, then all you need to do is kill her. But you could also use a Hanged Spell to make Von Schill unable to heal, or Paralyse the Librarian so it can't make a slow to die healing flip. Get a minus flip on the Librarians cast and then kill it before it's activated so it doesn't have the ..

[LoboStele]

Yeah, I was going to say, all you have to do is kill it before it has activated, so that it doesn't have the Ram automatically. Won't work in all cases (if opponent has a 4 :rams or higher in their hand, obviously), but is the most simple way.

Or, better yet....kill Von Schill, lol.

[Elazar]

Or Headshot either/both with Rusty Alyce...

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Slow to die heal is nice but once they run out of the right control cards to cheat it ends ugly. I played against it twice and it made my opponent too aggressive and got VonSchills' crew just about wiped before I lost more than a quarter of my crew.(Come to think of it the other players lost a number of models but I only lost two totem one game and none the second game. Gremlin tactics for the win!)

Essentially it is a nice combo when it comes up but don't base your strategy around it.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Dark Alleycat]

That fight I didn't have a single ram in my control cards and that kept me from healing them.

The second game,yes I got overextended,mainly because I thought the other player on my teem would be moving faster lol.

If you can manage to keep them close it makes them both very difficult to kill.

[Ratty]

I had a game where I didn't have a ram turn up for 2 turns and when I tried to heal the Viks with furious casting didn't have a single ram appear. That's 6 heals in a row and two turns draw... It can happen to anyone at the worst time.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

And the Cat and the Rat proved my point. Don't base a strategy based a whole lot on luck of the flip. Sometimes a suit doesn't show itself for a number of flips so "unless it is in your hand Do Not count on it" has always been my motto.

[Dark Alleycat]

What Im trying to say is...yes..that combo can make for an incredibly difficult to kill duo. I wouldn't use the librarian as a tank to hold people in that manner,but it is something to remember.

Also,dont ignore the librarian's other spells she can cast. the +2 DF aura can do nicely,giving a defense of 5-7 for everyone.removing the suits from a Master or Spell caster can make the double suit spells really difficult if not impossible to get. the positive flip to cast and damage can work nicely as well.

But yes,if your going to have the librarian...holding onto a ram,even a small one,is a very good idea.

[tenabrae]

Don't forget slow to die only works on killed as well, your Leveticus opponent should have arranged a sacrifice instead.

[Zaqir]

I was the Leveticus opponent and I assure you that wont happen again.

I clearly made a few mistakes that I wont do ever ever again.

1)Killjoy should never have charger her, I could have EASILY used his hook and pulled her away from the slow to die aura.

2)Levi does have SAC spells which i could have used as well...Question about that though, does it stop Masters using soul stones to heal etc.

3)I let you get too close to my waifs for no reason and it cost me the game.

[tenabrae]

If you're outright sacced then no, you can't soulstone it away. Damage prevention requires you to take damage, and obviously healing requires you to still be there to heal

There are a few abilities in the game that only function on killed so learn to use your ability to sac a model instead well

If it's causing Wd then yes (SS for damage prevention prevents Wd not Dg)

[iamthefly]

I played a game (so badly) last night and my oponent was using Von Schill. He reckoned that because Von Schill was Slow To Die, then each time I killed him he could just make a damage prevention flip with the StD action and then come back to life again. Effectively making him unkillable as long as he has soul stones left.

Is this right? How do I deal with it?

If it's causing Wd then yes (SS for damage prevention prevents Wd not Dg)

Thanks.

What's the difference?

Edited April 7, 2011 by iamthefly

[tadaka]

Sounds normal. Few options to deal with this.

1. Run him out of stones.

2. Any action that kills outright such as headshot. Healing will not prevent such effects.

3. Paralized models cant take slow to die actions.

4. Focus on other models and leave him for last.

Any damage that is not prevented becomes wounds. Things like armor and bulletproof prevent damage. Whats left is wounds. Some effects cause wounds. Normaly this is a spell and will say it causes wounds. This bypasses things like armor, bulletproof.

Edited April 7, 2011 by tadaka

[iamthefly]

Sounds normal. Few options to deal with this.

1. Run him out of stones.

2. Any action that kills outright such as headshot. Healing will not prevent such effects.

3. Paralized models cant take slow to die actions.

4. Focus on other models and leave him for last.

Any damage that is not prevented becomes wounds. Things like armor and bulletproof prevent damage. Whats left is wounds. Some effects cause wounds. Normaly this is a spell and will say it causes wounds. This bypasses things like armor, bulletproof.

Sweet

Cheers.

[Adran]

I played a game (so badly) last night and my oponent was using Von Schill. He reckoned that because Von Schill was Slow To Die, then each time I killed him he could just make a damage prevention flip with the StD action and then come back to life again. Effectively making him unkillable as long as he has soul stones left.

Is this right? How do I deal with it?

Quick terminology correction.

You know what you mean, but not everyone reading will.

When you killed Von Schill he used his (1) slow to die action to do a (1) heal action.

This flip removed wounds that the model has already taken.

Because after you heal (as long as it wasn't a black joker) you have removed some of the suffered wounds, the model does not die.

Damage prevention flip doesn't take up an action, but doesn't always mean that you will survive. it is done before you suffer the wounds and takes off from the wounds you are about to suffer, so enough wounds might still occur to kill you.

[LoboStele]

Woah....is that a change in the Rules Manual vs Book 1? I had always thought that spending a SS in response to an attack was a damage prevention flip, not a wound prevention. Very interesting. Makes a big difference for characters with Armor.

As a note though, even Spells which ignore Armor will still be reduced by -1 Dg on Von Schill due to his specific type of armor which also reduces damage against spells. So, sometimes it's no different than a normal attack against him, as either option gets reduced by 1.

[naiatoc]

When you killed Von Schill he used his (1) slow to die action to do a (1) heal action.

This flip removed wounds that the model has already taken.

Because after you heal (as long as it wasn't a black joker) you have removed some of the suffered wounds, the model does not die.

Interesting. I had assumed when reading the rule book that the action would go off as he was taking the damage. What I mean is, if I had one wound left and you do 3 damage to me. Then lets say I healed 2, I would take 1 and still die. I would need to heal all 3 in order to take no damage and stay alive.

However, I read the slow to die entry in the rules manual and you are correct! That's a nice tidbit to know.

[LoboStele]

Interesting. I had assumed when reading the rule book that the action would go off as he was taking the damage. What I mean is, if I had one wound left and you do 3 damage to me. Then lets say I healed 2, I would take 1 and still die. I would need to heal all 3 in order to take no damage and stay alive.

However, I read the slow to die entry in the rules manual and you are correct! That's a nice tidbit to know.

You're actually talking about two different actions there. What you reference in the first post would be considered a Prevention Flip. Which anybody with Use Soulstone can do. The (1) Healing Flip trick only works with Masters that have Slow To Die. It's a really neat trick though.

Like, for instance, playing Hoffman vs. Colette last night, Hoffman hit Colette for 9 Dg total, which, even with a Severe Prevention Flip, would still be enough to kill her. But, since she has Slow to Die, you just take all of the 9 Dg, which reduces you to 0 Wds (and you can't go below 0). Then, STD kicks in and you (1) Healing Flip going back up however many you heal. Presto, she's left with 1-3 Wds left (unless you're lucky enough to flip the Red Joker ).