Spiku Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Luckily this is all part of my Scheme, which means she is considered a Master. Thank you page 35. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I was mainly talking about Masters (and certainly only really characters - although you can include the Silent One who helps Joss down the Mountain, who was also a red head...) Of the 20 Masters in the game, 9 are women, and 4 of these are red heads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Of the 20 Masters in the game, 9 are women, and 4 of these are red heads... Five. Sonnia, LJ, Pandora, Colette and Lilith. Add Doug to the mix and it's a ginger conspiracy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Five. Sonnia, LJ, Pandora, Colette and Lilith. Add Doug to the mix and it's a ginger conspiracy! Sorry, yes - 5 out of the 10 female masters are red heads - that's 50%! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alansmithee Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I'm really interested to see where the story heads in the next book. Because to be honest, I haven't really liked the direction things have taken after the first book. I thought the first book did a great job introducing the world, and the masters and their various motivations. It set up a good structure, with lots of plots and schemes and places for conflict. And it also set up a way in which the various skirmishes made sense in the game world. You had major players (masters), some side characters (uniques, etc) and a lot of room for future interaction. But it had one big problem from my standpoint (which I'll get to later). The second book seemed to keep some of this, but it's also where things seemed to diverge, and mostly for the worse. I thought most of the masters got a good introduction that fit well into what was going on. But the thing that I thought was the major problem in the first book seemed to only get worse. I bought the last book this weekend. I was on the fence, but I wanted to read more of the story because I still though that overall it was pretty interesting. However, the thing I found to be a problem in the first two books was all over the third. And that was the overarching tyrant storyline. I've really not liked how it has been handled, and think it also doesn't really fit into making the actual skirmishes/brawls people fight have any part of the story. because having demigods attempting to take over the world has an obviously large disruptive effect on everything else in the storyline. On top of which, having the masters (each who have been decently developed as characters) become nothing but puppets and vessels for these tyrants does the previous characterizations a large disservice, in my opinion. Instead of having lots of ways for the masters (and henchmen) to scheme, interact, and try to increase their power and influence, everything becomes a secondary goal with everyone focused defeating some demigod spirits (or, in the case of those who have been turned into vessels, just being something that enacts their will). Now, this really doesn't impact the actual playing of the game (obviously) but it does give individual games less attachment to the overall plot, I think. What real importance does Ramos fighting Perdita over some bag of soulstones really have? Before you could at least see it as something that helps further his goals to undermine the Guild, or something similar. Now it's just kinda irrelevant in the face of superpowered demigods flooding the city and trying to destroy everything. It just seemed odd to develop this balance of powers and construct motivations for everyone that very well could be supported by small-scale skirmishes and decide to essentially abandon it in favor of grand GW-style mass conflicts and threats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) It just seemed odd to develop this balance of powers and construct motivations for everyone that very well could be supported by small-scale skirmishes and decide to essentially abandon it in favor of grand GW-style mass conflicts and threats. I'm pretty much the opposite - While I liked the Book 1 fluff, it felt a little loose and directionless - Book 2 was a big improvement (all of the newly developed characters were extremely well rounded) and I loved Book 3. On your last point, this is actually not supported at all by the fluff - While there are Tyrant Conflicts in the book (mostly represented in game by the new Avatar forms) there aren't any Mass conflicts in the book at all - if anything these conflicts are a little on the small side: - Samael Hopkins vs Cherufu/Sonnia - Samael Hopkins vs Grave Spirit/Seamus, Molly and a few Belles - December vs Rasputina, Snow Storm and a few Silent Ones, Acolytes and Priests. Of these, only the December one actually cannot be easily played in game, since its more of an "internal" struggle... Even the oft cited "big finale" fight from book 2 wasn't exactly a mass conflict when you consider that it was 2 Masters clashing who both have a tendency to create mass swarms of underlings (Mindless Zombies vs Rat Swarm)... Edited October 10, 2011 by FearLord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think Twisting Fates has been out long enough for this thread to come back. Right on. Some questions I have: - are the undead construct things that fight the Ortegas at the beginning of the book Steampunk Abominations? Yes! But....no... - is Perdita's doctor important and acting secretly (like Lucius and the Govenor General) or is he just a creepy guy? Morrow? He's too creepy to ignore, in't he? - Is there a big push to sell PeaceKeepers this year - after 2 books not really touching on them it seems like they're mentioned a lot in Twisting Fates... Not by me! Buy more Ice Gamin. - It seems as though Avatars can be divided into those who can choose to manifest their powers at will (Marcus, Seamus, Hoffman, etc) and those that have been permanently changed by the event (such as Zoraida, Leveticus, Hamlin, etc)- are these latter now changed for good, or will the event eventually 'wear off'? Um...I guess we'll see. My intent, without getting too deep into this~ they're all unique and learning how to control it on different levels. Some cannot control it and will have very emotional reactions to manifest, ala the Incredible Hulk. Some will be able to do it by jumping into a phone booth. Permanent manifestations? Well...some are definitely changed on a rather permanent level. Writing: I have to say in a critical fashion, I find the general writing style to be rather weak. The little card game with Zoraida was a fun little endeavour which sets the playing field for Malifaux in general rather well, but throughout the descriptors and style seem very "young". Whilst I adore the visuals of the models, the world itself between theme, fluff, inhabitants and crunch, the writing style itself just feels lacking. :/ JK: fair enough. Everyone has different expectations. Hoping to not sound defensive, I wonder what it'd sound like if I had more than five months to write a small novel-length bit of fluff, focusing on six diferent sub-plots to portray as many masters as possible, some of which are under constant tweaking and development while I write and don't get finalized until two days before the book goes to print. The story or progress itself I like, and they are often quite punchy things, but the execution doesn't do it for me. Perhaps that is intentional to reflect the way the average joe miner of Malifaux may well tell the same stories. LOL! Yes. I like that very much. I'm pretty much the opposite - While I liked the Book 1 fluff, it felt a little loose and directionless - Book 2 was a big improvement (all of the newly developed characters were extremely well rounded) and I loved Book 3. And....what we've learned in the hallowed halls of Wyrd central - not ever can all of our fans/gamers can ever be happy at once. Hell, we cannot even give our rules manual away for free without a pile of criticism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yes! But....no... Tease! The descriptions of them being all different got me thinking, but I've sort of spiraled from there and now I really want to know what's going on (because I spent half an afternoon trying to figure out if Leveticus is like some kind of Ramos from the future who got sent into the past. Yeah). Morrow? He's too creepy to ignore, in't he? There's definitely something 'up' with him... I just wasn't sure if it was 'up' in an important way, or in a 'everyone in Malifaux is a few Soul stones short of a maximum pool' sort of way... Not by me! Buy more Ice Gamin. Noted. It just struck me as odd that they suddenly seem to be everywhere. Them and the Air cars which we are introduced to and appear in multiple stories... Um...I guess we'll see. My intent, without getting too deep into this~ they're all unique and learning how to control it on different levels. Some cannot control it and will have very emotional reactions to manifest, ala the Incredible Hulk. Some will be able to do it by jumping into a phone booth. Permanent manifestations? Well...some are definitely changed on a rather permanent level. Interesting! This also ties into another question I had in relation to this - how in control of this new power is everyone? Obviously characters like Sonnia are in trouble (although having now read it, it seems pretty clear she's neither as dead or gone as some people were suggesting in the spoiler threads...), but some seem to be pretty normal in the circumstances... Another question that occurs - what exactly is Ramos' long term plan? He seems to have made a real mistake tipping too much of his hand to Hoffman and now the Guild seems to be closing in... He's been playing a fairly dangerous game operating within the Guild structure (in the same way as McMourning and Nicodem) but unlike them he seems to have much more to lose... Thanks for taking the time to answer - much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I just have one question: When can we expect more fluff? (Maybe a collection of short stories? Or, perhaps, a Graphic Novel?) Ok, so that was three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 On the subject of peacekeepers. I think we're seeing them more because the overall situation in malifaux is getting more tense. The Tyrant entities are waking up, different factions are vying for power, the Guilds' enemies are getting more serious with their attacks, etc. All of this is leading to some massive struggle in the near future. Thus...More Peacekeepers, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Stuff. Way to sidestep the ginger question, nerd. I demand a reckoning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Way to sidestep the ginger question, nerd. I demand a reckoning! We love our redheads. Redheads are hot. I'm married to one. She's not even a daywalker. The sun burns her flesh like it's tissue paper dropped in lava. And Keltheos is a ginger. We feel sorry for him, though. Not because of his sun issues. Just because everyone makes fun of him for being a ginger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 We love our redheads. Redheads are hot. I'm married to one. She's not even a daywalker. The sun burns her flesh like it's tissue paper dropped in lava. And Keltheos is a ginger. We feel sorry for him, though. Not because of his sun issues. Just because everyone makes fun of him for being a ginger. In closing: Redheaded women are all :inlove: Ginger dudes are all P.S. I love Coco almost as much as McMourning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 It just struck me as odd that they suddenly seem to be everywhere. Them and the Air cars which we are introduced to and appear in multiple stories... Again, I just threw them in because they were cool! It makes sense for the Guild to have their routes in the sky, and this nicely mirrors the Arcanists' underground tunnels and paths. It also gives the sense of the Guild's dominion over Malifaux being extended in all available directions (albeit still hemmed in by the airborne dangers of the Nephilim and other denizens of Malifaux). Did I mention they were cool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 At work so I can't write a substantive response, though I will tonight! You can take comfort in the fact I'm the sort of person who uses little twice in the same sentence in the meantime. Thank you for responding regardless~ Though could I press you on the Gremlins questions? Maybe I should have stuck with: "Are female gremlins so top heavy, proportionally, due to litter size or rapid breeding cycles?" =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Not trying to call you out personally, your post actually helped me pinpoint my own thoughts about what was going on. Some of the things you said spring-boarded my thoughts, that's why you're quoted. I'm more and more reminded of Greek mythology (or mythology in general) as I read this fluff. On top of which, having the masters (each who have been decently developed as characters) become nothing but puppets and vessels for these tyrants does the previous characterizations a large disservice, in my opinion. I actually believe that this mirrors real life very well and makes the story have more depth and be more believable. Some will rise and some will fall. Not everyone can win all the time. The masters aren't invincible and in order to grow, they must face trials. And really, no one except for Hamelin became a true puppet. Everyone involved with a Tyrant is still acting as themselves. Sonnia is really the only one that we're not sure of and Rasputina is actually kinda turning December into her b*tch. Instead of having lots of ways for the masters (and henchmen) to scheme, interact, and try to increase their power and influence, everything becomes a secondary goal with everyone focused defeating some demigod spirits (or, in the case of those who have been turned into vessels, just being something that enacts their will). Just running around doing things makes the story more shallow. There must be some grand scheme or event to make everyone interact with each other. More on this below. It just seemed odd to develop this balance of powers and construct motivations for everyone that very well could be supported by small-scale skirmishes and decide to essentially abandon it in favor of grand GW-style mass conflicts and threats. I don't believe that the small-scale skirmish was the intent of the story-line to start. I always felt that a war was going on and a war may start with recon engagements but always escalates to larger conflicts. If nothing else, remember that humans are invaders in Malifaux and they are resisted by the natives. The fluff indicates that large conflicts have happened in the past - entire towns of people just disappear / and the original closing of the first breach resulted in all humans being wiped out. So it's not a stretch to imagine that things are heading that way. As I said earlier, I'm reminded of mythology. I see the Masters as steam-punky versions of Theseus or Perseus or [insert favorite hero here]. Normally they're just people doing their things, but they get wrapped up in some type of catastrophe. Sometimes those catastrophes have to do with crazy monsters (Killjoy for example.....the Ortega/Seamus fight) or with higher powers (Cherufe/Sonnia). What disappoints me is when something "appears" abandoned. To me the fluff should of course be engaging (which it always is) but should also be a tool to set things up (which it usually is). My big question that goes with this is (forgive me I don't have my books on hand and I don't remember the name); what happened to the guy with the traveling circus? I don't believe there was anything about him at all in this book but there was quite a bit in the last one. He was really interesting, the story was interesting, it seemed like a big intro to something......where'd it go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 what happened to the guy with the traveling circus? I don't believe there was anything about him at all in this book but there was quite a bit in the last one. He was really interesting, the story was interesting, it seemed like a big intro to something......where'd it go? Collodi? Or are you thinking about the Aethervox podcast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Collodi? Or are you thinking about the Aethervox podcast? Am I thinking of the podcast?!? I remember a guy using doors or something but coming out elsewhere. The kids writing notes. Was that the podcast?!? My feeble brain.....everything melds together....I can't remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Am I thinking of the podcast?!? I remember a guy using doors or something but coming out elsewhere. The kids writing notes. Was that the podcast?!? My feeble brain.....everything melds together....I can't remember. :You_Rock_ Biggest compliment ever to the Aethervox guys. In answer to your question DGraz, Mr. Magpies Circus (Carnival?) was a fan-fict story on the Aethervox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 :facepalm:embarasse:doh: Well then I have NO disappointments....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 :You_Rock_ Biggest compliment ever to the Aethervox guys. In answer to your question DGraz, Mr. Magpies Circus (Carnival?) was a fan-fict story on the Aethervox. I am sure Dave is doing the only responsible thing right now and putting out a hit on the Aethervox guys as we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I'm afraid this isn't the first time I've looked down and seen a long post. Apologies. I feel like I'm on quite a violent seesaw when the fluff is considered. The artwork and models got me into the game initially, then I read the fluff and actually understood the game, the characters and why a baby with a knife and a monstrous teddy were best friends. It was fairly simple, the characters were a little larger than life, but the conflicts reflected the game rather well, with a little extra steampunk coolness (Leviathan) to make a good impression. Book 2 was actually better imo (I think). Even though it was a little Kirai heavy, I thought all the new Masters got a great introduction and the general tone and quality was far better. Hamelin is still perhaps my personal worst Master fluff-wise. I did find it quite funny though, how I raised a question about whether Malifaux, the game, would ever bring out rules to allow you to recreate scenes like the fight at the observatory. The very notion of Malifaux being bigger than it is was shot down without mercy. I was extremely excited about Twisting Fates because of the promise that we'd get an even greater insight into Malifaux and the characters who had yet to receive the spotlight (Marcus!) This sounded great and though I was unsure about the Avatars, their artwork looked pretty good. Here is were the swings start swaying. I read Twisting fates in two long bursts, divided by the faction stories. There were moments when I couldn't turn the page quicker and times when I was trying hard to read faster so I could get to something more exciting. And afterwards I was... so.. confused. Not about the story itself, as such, but how I felt about it. I have said before and will continue to say that the story with Marcus was a stroke of absolute genius, and by far the best bit of character development out of all three books. It was simple, it was restrained, but it had contrast and opened a door that had an expected appearance, but implied a wonderfully more interesting destination than his little profile in book one. I also think it is to the credit of the writers that the faction I probably have least interest in, the faceless, characterless Neverborn, really shined for me in this book. Pandora was great and I had a really vivid image of her and Nytmare. What I liked most about Lilith and Zoraida was how they felt like they actually fitted in a time frame, Zoraida stinging with a hint of content mortality (something she does not have control over), Lilith showing human qualities such as nostalgia, all the while making it her duty to see that Pandora doesn't fall for the settlers, some nice contradictions there. The faction stories as well were rather wonderful. I've already said I would like to adapt Puzzle Box to film, and if I had the resources I'd do A Grand Adventure too =] I would say the tone in these stories were near perfect. The grittiness was there, the sense of being a pawn (Witchling 263) and being part of a game (Teddy), but also the lightheartedness (English Ivan's no. 1 rule never got old). That contrast of horror and playfulness, the set up of heart racing scenarios (ambitious heists, gang warfare) together with interesting characters both human and inhuman, just rang true of what Malifaux is to me - it's Deadwood taken over by Tim Burton and Guillermo Del Toro's love spawn. That is Malifaux, and I love it! But yes yes, that's all fair and well, I wouldn't be playing this game if I didn't like the fluff (trust me, I really wouldn't be playing it - fluff is very important), but I do have reservations. I previously mentioned Hamelin is by far the dullest Master, I believe this is quite possibly true. It's difficult to characterize something that is so far from being human, it's fair enough to make a character feel a little disjointed and alien (especially if the character in question is literally an alien). But Hamelin is just a souless heap of bugs, with a disembodied voice going "I will ascend, rargh, red cage *something cryptic* rargh, plague, plague plague, blahblahblah... rargh..." There is quite literally nothing to hook onto, nothing or no one to engage with. Don't get me wrong, I love plague (disambiguated) , I love rats and disease and pestilence (and yes my favorite GW Chaos God is Nurgle). I can understand why people are attracted to the crew visually and game play wise, but I would find it very hard to have any higher engagement with a Hamelin crew - alien or otherwise. Same goes for these Tyrants. Now I won't make the mistake of pretending like I know what is going to happen next and how things will develop. However, as it stands the Tyrants are just disembodied elemental forces with a shallow conscience. Before I go into further detail on what I don't like and what I think could be done, I would like to highlight Dgraz's point about Malifaux and mythology (particularly Greek). I love mythology, like a lot of people here likely do. And yes it is hard to not think of the Tyrants and then not think of the Titans, which begs the question - who are the Olympic Gods in this sorry tale - the Neverborn perhaps? And yes, the stories of the actual Gods are as interesting as the mortal tales. And what makes mythology so interesting is how the Gods, creatures and mortals all interact with each other. The Gods have their own problems, the creatures are often their servants, while the mortals are pawns that often decide to take fate into their own hands (though sometimes "freedom" is just another word for being the servant to a different God). All very nice, and when you add extra detail and themes, etc these stories become legends. But that isn't the case with Malifaux, at least not yet. The Tyrants don't seem like characters in their own right, they're more like the vague Chaos Gods of GW than the Aesir of Asgard or the Jotun of Jotunheim in Norse mythology. Only Nurgle never really picks up the mic and gives us a 1,2,1,2 does he? Apart from the effect he spreads through his pawns, he is purely conceptual, because he isn't a character, he is an element, a symbol, a force of nature - it is through the developed characters that serve him (like a preacher serves God) that his influence and the purpose of his existence is conveyed to us, and if we like what we see/hear then we can take it upon ourselves to spread the message too. Now I kind of like December because he has a cult, he has characterful followers that spread his will. I enjoyed getting an insight into the Cult of December, because it attached a face, however strange and alien, alongside something that continues to be hard to engage with. December is quite cool, but all he has provided so far are excuses for conflict "you are my puppet" "no I'm not" "yes you are" "am not" "are to" "not!" "I AM YOUR MASTER" "shut up fool" That's what I break that scene down into, as cinematic as it was in my mind, it achieved little to actually make either December or 'Tina characters that I can tell my own stories with. And so I'm left to wait a year to see if these characters are shallow or if they are just strange and wonderfully alien. And that is my biggest point - why is the fluff annual? Really? I get that you don't have a great deal of time to write the fluff out and that you have to make it last for the lifetime of the game (hopefully a very long time), but annual fluff is honestly going to kill Malifaux for me at least. It's not just a childish "Oh I wanna read it naow!" It's the fact that you really, really can't develop all these characters, factions and storylines in one book per year. You just can't. I look forward to see what you do with the Tyrants, avatars and everything else that appears to contradict a smoother story progression of the settling of a untamed world. I mean the way the books read it feels like we start off with Deadwood then suddenly we're being introduced to characters as if they're the latest attraction in Heroes. I liked that Rose girl (the one that apparently can't be harmed), until I thought of Claire from Heroes, and before posing the question "what do you want, Deadwood or Heroes?" I realized the real reason she made me uneasy, apart from the fact it makes me sick to imagine Malifaux like a gimmicky comic strip stretched to limits just to sell merchandise. No the real reason was that every character's "power" has been an extension of their natural abilities - Justice was likely always a good fighter, Ramos a good engineer, while Kirai is a more spiritual awakening, perfectly inkeeping with the occultism that we strongly attach to the period we all know and love (the 1800s). But if it gets to a point where the latest character has to have a new and wondrous "power" and some great purpose and superhuman-like origin story, I will quite possibly pack up shop and leave (taken my beloved puppets with me). In reaction to those who fear larger conflicts and final showdowns, I don't think things will go that way, too much at least. I personally like the idea of larger conflicts, it seems strange that the Guild have never sent more than half a dozen Guards to a conflict, but it's clear that gamers don't want this. Wyrd seem very good at listening so instead of going bigger sideways they went bigger upwards, with Avatars. Now I like them in the game, but their integration into the story was rather jarred and would really have benefited from a little more progression (by not being part of an annual fluff release). So games don't get bigger, but the players sort of do, alright then, but what about those Tyrants? In mythology you never had any instance where the Spartans united to defeat Kronos, and in Ragnarok none of the Gods were slain by mortals, but other Gods as well as the famous monsters (Fenrir, Jormungand, Garm, Surt, etc - also note even these creatures were characterful). The reason I feel like I'm on a seesaw is because what I love, I really love (Marcus woo!) but what I don't like (and to an extent what I do as well) has yet to really come to fruition, so I honestly can't say if it's gonna be any good. The reason I don't like it is because I can think of no logical way considering the set-up for it to be good. Are these Tyrants conceptual beings or are they characters, because they can't be in a vague middle ground in a game dedicated to character interaction. And ultimately the whole game will suffer if the fluff remains an annual release (bring back Chronicles!) So in conclusion, feel free to have alien and inhuman characters, but make them characters or just make them conceptual. Don't have such big plot jumps (I mean in the space of two books - who cares that they were separated by a year - we've went from plague, to deadly winter to drought), not everything has to be extreme or unnatural. I think the overall feeling that the story is rushing to get to the next supercoolexcitinganddeadlyscenario is down to the annual release and by getting this idea out of your head that you need to go BIGGER in any way. I honestly can't emphasis that point enough. I play Malifaux because I was hooked by the promise of going deeper not wider or taller, deeper into character, deeper into setting, mythology, society (see book 2's Gremlin story) and then, and only then the final cherry on the top - the overarching story that makes me feel like this world is actually animated and developing as opposed to GW's, admittedly far deeper setting (ironically thanks to their skirmish games - Inquisitor ftw), but motionless universe. I shall leave it to the professionals (for now..) to steer this wonderful universe to a bright future, but heed my words like the call of the Albatross. Till next time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 What I'd like would be a monthly or every other month release of a short story--not necessarily a long one, or even dealing with named characters(I thought the guild theft, puzzle box, and some of the smaller stories were among the best in twisting fates) just something that adds fluff and setting. The chronicles would be great, but I could see how that would be too much at the moment. I understand this might not be possible at the moment, but I think it really is something you should consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alansmithee Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Not trying to call you out personally, your post actually helped me pinpoint my own thoughts about what was going on. Some of the things you said spring-boarded my thoughts, that's why you're quoted. I'm more and more reminded of Greek mythology (or mythology in general) as I read this fluff. I actually believe that this mirrors real life very well and makes the story have more depth and be more believable. Some will rise and some will fall. Not everyone can win all the time. The masters aren't invincible and in order to grow, they must face trials. And really, no one except for Hamelin became a true puppet. Everyone involved with a Tyrant is still acting as themselves. Sonnia is really the only one that we're not sure of and Rasputina is actually kinda turning December into her b*tch. I agree, that there has to be trials, and people should fail. However, there's already a mechanism to drive this-the other masters that they strive against. That also leaves room for them to fail without being utterly destroyed and then deus ex machina'd back to life. You also don't run into the problem of a lot of fantasy works of having villains that aren't actually convincing. If they NEVER win, it's really hard to take them as some superpowered otherworldy threat to the existence of everything (as they seem to be painting them in the fluff). Also, tension builds by letting people see glimpses, hear rumors. Not showing them constantly almost (well, not really almost) gaining REAL ULTIMATE POWER and then randomly failing. It just gets tired, imo. Just running around doing things makes the story more shallow. There must be some grand scheme or event to make everyone interact with each other. More on this below. See, this I think is where we disagree the most. The story I thought was interesting because instead of all fighting the foo of plot device they all were enacting their own schemes. That's what drove the interaction: the world they built and the power struggle within it. How I saw it was the Guild was essentially opposed to everyone. Arcanists worked with everyone, but were only using them to essentially try to supplant the Guild. Neverborn hated everyone else because they were all seen as invaders. And Ressurectionists were opposed to the Guild (since their art was outlawed) and Neverborn (invaders, along with the whole jealousy/contempt angle for people improperly using their ancient arts) and had an uneasy peace with the Arcanists. That's all you really need. I don't believe that the small-scale skirmish was the intent of the story-line to start. I always felt that a war was going on and a war may start with recon engagements but always escalates to larger conflicts. If nothing else, remember that humans are invaders in Malifaux and they are resisted by the natives. The fluff indicates that large conflicts have happened in the past - entire towns of people just disappear / and the original closing of the first breach resulted in all humans being wiped out. So it's not a stretch to imagine that things are heading that way. And this is a big part of my problem. If small-scale skirmishes aren't what's driving the plot, the battles in their small-scale skirmish game really have nothing to do with anything. As I said earlier, I'm reminded of mythology. I see the Masters as steam-punky versions of Theseus or Perseus or [insert favorite hero here]. Normally they're just people doing their things, but they get wrapped up in some type of catastrophe. Sometimes those catastrophes have to do with crazy monsters (Killjoy for example.....the Ortega/Seamus fight) or with higher powers (Cherufe/Sonnia). And that's another place I see a problem-Theseus and Perseus were the heroes of their own stories. Not everyone else had to stop and get pulled in their particular storylines. And also there's the scope-those heroes weren't battling gods directly, they weren't staving off the end of the world, they were furthering their own goals and affecting a relatively small area of their own interest. That seems a lot more similar to the book 1 general storyline than that of books 2/3 where everyone gets caught up in trying to avert some world-ending catastrophe. I found it refreshing that there seemed to be actual restraint shown, instead of instantly going for the old "dark gods bent on destroying the world" trope. I guess that's what my biggest complaints boiled down to-instead of having a bunch of different factions and characters warring and staging power plays it seems everything is instead being mulched into some generic end of the world scenario. And there's really no room in something like that for people to (logically) have side plots or pursue their own interests-things that actually gave them character. Now everything seemingly has to be focused around tyrants, and stopping the tyrants, and finding the tyrants, and worshiping the tyrants, and being vessels for the tyrants, and tyrants tyrants tyrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 That seems a lot more similar to the book 1 general storyline than that of books 2/3 where everyone gets caught up in trying to avert some world-ending catastrophe. I found it refreshing that there seemed to be actual restraint shown, instead of instantly going for the old "dark gods bent on destroying the world" trope. I guess that's what my biggest complaints boiled down to-instead of having a bunch of different factions and characters warring and staging power plays it seems everything is instead being mulched into some generic end of the world scenario. And there's really no room in something like that for people to (logically) have side plots or pursue their own interests-things that actually gave them character. Now everything seemingly has to be focused around tyrants, and stopping the tyrants, and finding the tyrants, and worshiping the tyrants, and being vessels for the tyrants, and tyrants tyrants tyrants. But this is completely inaccurate - firstly Book 1 is the only book where multiple masters fight a Tyrant (December) - if anything the end of book 2 conflict with Plague is more about individual schemes - Justice is not even aware of Hamlin's presence when she attacks - she is focused on fighting Nicodem's undead minions and just happens to get caught up in the general plague storyline, as does Hoffman (who is investigating the Kirai murders)... As for book 3, besides Hamlin who is a Tyrant (and barely appears), Sonnia, Rasputina and Seamus, no other masters interact with Tyrants at all... Leveticus and Zoraida (and by extension, the rest of the Neverborn masters) are preparing to fight Avatars, but everyone else is actually carrying out their own sub plots that they apparently have no time for... Hoffman, Justice, Ramos, Marcus, McMourning, and Nicodem all spend sometime in the Spot light and their story lines don't even touch on Tyrants... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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