So my LGS caught a couple players cheating

[Justin]

The issue is, whether you provide it or not, they can still flip thru and pocket the black joker, and as far as running their deck at the end Lalo, they could just swap stuff around or have a pocketed deck.

Sadly, until the the day the world is pure...we suffer. So, have fun and deal with it as it comes.

It's a potential problem with any system, of course.

But I would still check.

It's like locking my front door. Sure, if someone really wanted to get into my house and steal my awesome collection of miniatures, they could just bash in the window. But I still lock the door, otherwise you're almost asking people to come in.

Same with checking the decks at the end, or any other means of preventing behavior like this. Sure, you may catch a few people too inept to avoid you. But the larger effect is the message.

[Q'iq'el]

I think we have a market for automagic soulstone powered fate card shuffling machines - use them at the start of every turn and they'll not only provide a perfectly random shuffle, but also check if all the cards are there and in order, using our patented NicoBrain™ computation technology made from the reclaimed remnants of Lady J brain tissue connected to a Zombie's eye.

[libiss]

I would be ashame for one to do it. This is gentlemen's sport, all do respect, people shouldn't cheat, but that is how our society is now. Shame. shame. shame. shame.

[Jonas Albrecht]

In tournaments, if you have the manpower, I'd recommend issuing a dealer for each Scrap.

[Justin]

In tournaments, if you have the manpower, I'd recommend issuing a dealer for each Scrap.

That would be awesome!

And instead of "using a soul stone" we'll call it "hitting" when you flip another card and add to it. And if they choose not to, the player will "stay."

Also, money should be involved.

[Sliver Chocobo]

That would be awesome!

And instead of "using a soul stone" we'll call it "hitting" when you flip another card and add to it. And if they choose not to, the player will "stay."

Also, money should be involved.

I bet you 100 Guild Script, that any dealer would also act as a judge, and man judge will cosplay as the Judge and girls as Lady Justice

[MrNybbles]

I talked to one of my friends yesterday and he mentioned in Magic: The Gathering he's heard of people stacking their decks and doing some sort of fake shuffle. He described it similar to doing a magic trick where it looks like you are randomizing your deck, but are really keeping the sequence of the cards the same. I have no idea how this would work, but it may be very difficult to detect. Anyone ever heard of this?

[Chucklemonkey]

That would be awesome!

And instead of "using a soul stone" we'll call it "hitting" when you flip another card and add to it. And if they choose not to, the player will "stay."

Also, money should be involved.

Loving it. You could also have a mandatory limit on duel scores. Say 21. And if you exceed it, it's auto-lose.

@MrNybbles : Never heard of it in a gaming context but certainly fake shuffles are a staple of card manipulation in Magic. I don't know how M:TG works so can't comment but with the alternate activation and duel defence in Malifaux I imagine the only advantage would be in keeping a batch of high cards near the top of the deck.

Although, if someone was sufficiently skilled i'm pretty sure they would be able to sleight a joker out whenever required.

[James.]

I had a similar conversation with Elazar the other week. I noticed (as a new player to Malifaux) that there are certain trust elements in this game that aren't in others. If I removed the black joker from my deck would anyone ever notce? Probably not. If I lied about the schemes I had would my opponent know? No, I could get around it.

Luckily the people I plan on playing with, I trust to play honestly. So these questions weren't needed, but it was an interesting point to me all the same.

I honestly think with a game like Malifaux, the story of the mission is more important than the actual winning, and I think that when cheating to win in this game becomes the norm, then the person concerned really doesn't get the game at all.

James.

[tajnisvet]

When you shuffle your deck in manner of just turning couple of cards from one side to another, the deck will come in almost the same order before shuffling. I mtg it's forbidden, and penalty for that is either game loss or dissqualification if doing so on purpose (cheating).

I use the MTG method for malifaux as well. Two people shuffle their own decks. Then each other present another the decks, and they can shuffle. After that you can shuffle again, but then the opponent must do shuffling of your deck as well. Then if you cut the deck, your opponent get to do the same on your deck afterwards. So before the start of the game, your opponent must be the last person who touched your deck.

Shuffle half of the deck into another half and always ask your opponent to shuffle his deck, to do in that manner, if you see he is just turning cards from one end to another. The whole point of it is to have fun, so if you find cheaters don't hesitate and use all you come to think off to mock him for that.

Edited January 16, 2011 by tajnisvet

[magicpockets]

good point!

course this also comes up with the issue of someone thinking..."hmmm..let me stack my deck with low cards and when I draw the low card I give them my deck"

agghh....ok so that system isnt perfect either....so whats the best way to insure that people dont stack decks and cheat other than going through each persons deck before each game.

:banghead:

Couldn't you put both decks on the table, toss a coin and the winner gets the deck on the left? Totally random then.

[Thunder_God]

I remember, this happened in Nationals of MtG, or maybe the world championship, years ago.

Someone had a deck with 4 of a card that can call other of its copies. He placed them all together at the top, then did 4 piles, then he merely did the "moving piles around" shuffle which doesn't do much, and so he could more or less guarantee that those 4 cards were evenly spaced, and even if the opponent just cut it, because few people actually shuffle their opponents' decks, it wouldn't matter.

That was a pro player known for borderline cheating.

[Omenbringer]

If I lied about the schemes I had would my opponent know?

For the tournaments I have played in with Malifaux, the TO's provided "score cards" for each round. You had to write down the scemes you took and if they were announced on the score cards prior to start. The TO's would then walk around an initial them. At the end of the game your opponent had to initial them as well. It worked pretty well to prohibit the shifting scheme cheat. It is a bit labor intensive with larger tourneys though.

For casual games a similar system could be worked out with a little alteration. Perhaps after both players have written down their schemes (and whether they are announced) they then trade sheets (folded of course) and hold on to them till the end of the gamevwhen they are reviewed.

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

That's kind of what we do in my group. We write our secret schemes on dry-erase tokens and put them under a cup or similar object, to the side and reveal them at the end.

[Griffsnog]

TOs could have players switch decks each turn so that way if there was a cheatin deck the players would each get a turn with it. I own three decks but they are al different colors.

[Avarice711]

TOs could have players switch decks each turn so that way if there was a cheatin deck the players would each get a turn with it. I own three decks but they are al different colors.

this is a wonderful idea

[Ratty]

this is a wonderful idea

It wouldn't work as you don't have to discard all your cards every turn. So high cards would move between decks.

[mythicFOX]

Ultimately its about common sense and deterrents.

The single biggest thing we can do to reduce cheating is to insist on cutting our opponents decks. Under the rules of the game players must offer the cut, always taking that option kills deck stacking dead.

When I teach the game to new players I teach them that decks should always be cut.

Now to stop players changing the cards in their deck I recommend TOs randomly check two players decks every round, that should act as a deterrent.

[oozeboss]

Now to stop players changing the cards in their deck I recommend TOs randomly check two players decks every round, that should act as a deterrent.

I like that idea a lot.

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

[MunkeyKungFu]

Ultimately its about common sense and deterrents.

The single biggest thing we can do to reduce cheating is to insist on cutting our opponents decks. Under the rules of the game players must offer the cut, always taking that option kills deck stacking dead.

When I teach the game to new players I teach them that decks should always be cut.

Now to stop players changing the cards in their deck I recommend TOs randomly check two players decks every round, that should act as a deterrent.

This!!!

[Griffsnog]

It wouldn't work as you don't have to discard all your cards every turn. So high cards would move between decks.

I've only played a few games but I don't think I've eve held any cards into the next round. What about having the TO fish those cards out of the deck that has been switched?

[Ratty]

I've only played a few games but I don't think I've eve held any cards into the next round. What about having the TO fish those cards out of the deck that has been switched?

The other problem is you discard after you shuffle the deck, so you can't draw cards you discard next turn. So you would have to fish out every card in your hand.

[MrNybbles]

@MrNybbles : Never heard of it in a gaming context but certainly fake shuffles are a staple of card manipulation in Magic. I don't know how M:TG works so can't comment but with the alternate activation and duel defence in Malifaux I imagine the only advantage would be in keeping a batch of high cards near the top of the deck.

Something like that.

With a stacked deck you may be able to control what Strategy you flip, your initial control hand, and initiative flip at the start of the game.

Even if the deck is never stacked again this can make a huge difference for the rest of the game.

He who sets the terms of a conflict is likely to win the conflict.

The single biggest thing we can do to reduce cheating is to insist on cutting our opponents decks. Under the rules of the game players must offer the cut, always taking that option kills deck stacking dead.

When I teach the game to new players I teach them that decks should always be cut.

Now to stop players changing the cards in their deck I recommend TOs randomly check two players decks every round, that should act as a deterrent.

I always liked cutting my opponent's deck either at the upper third, lower third, upper quarter, or lower quarter, but never in the middle.

What checks on the decks are you suggesting? You can check to see if all 54 cards are there and are each unique, but you can also check to see if the cards are somehow visibly marked.

[tenabrae]

Doesn't stop people loading their decks with invalid cards, but aorund here we usually cut for all the random flips pre-game (strat, deployment, etc).

[mythicFOX]

I always liked cutting my opponent's deck either at the upper third, lower third, upper quarter, or lower quarter, but never in the middle.

What checks on the decks are you suggesting? You can check to see if all 54 cards are there and are each unique, but you can also check to see if the cards are somehow visibly marked.

What you said. Check all 54 cards are there and not marked.

Edited January 18, 2011 by mythicFOX
SPAG