What count as Beardy/cheesy/unfair/waac ?

[viggo3000]

Hello.

What is normaly considered beardy in malifaux ? In other games with more units on the table you can just take something that i underpriced and angry (darkelf hydra) and take it mutiple times but you cant realy do that in malifaux due to the smal amount of points.

One thing that i see as WAAC in this game is the convict gunslinger. I have faced i a couple of times and i have not had any problem with it but he was in the hand of an inexperinced player. I see alot of themed crews with gunslingers on the net and im sure that people dont take him in their cult of december / red chapell gang becaus he´s cool.

[nilus]

You see the convict gunslinger in a lot of crew because he adds a much needed ranged element. I don't consider him unbalanced or cheesy.

[Vlad the Mad]

I generally don't believe in the "not fluffy = cheesy" equation (Alp bomb = cheesy & fluffy?).

Also, I think Malifaux is quite a "cheesy" game in itself, where rather nasty combos (that often make your opponent feel really miserable or helpless) are rewarded, even encouraged. The good thing is, everybody is aware of it so it's not really cheesy.

[nilus]

Right, to me its a bit of an evolution of the Warmachine model. Where lots of things seemed broken but if everyone has access to broken combos then they are not broken.

Malifaux takes it to the next level and basically almost every model feels broken in a vacuum. That balance comes from them all being equally crazy and broken.

[Wodschow]

We are nothing but mice after all.

Cheese <3

[viggo3000]

Yea the game in very inspiered by warmachine and i enjoy the combo part of the game. It gives a god contrast to the more movement based side of warhammer.

In my club warhammer is the dominant game. Warmachine has a smal group of players and there is som other smal games. There is a weary diferent view on Mali in the group. The players that play least and the "fluff" players hate all more extreme combos and has judged all form of allly as cheesy. The nekima lure list was claimed to be impossible to beat and a pure cheesefest by some.

[Alondir]

tbh the reason i love this game so much is that it doesn't really matter

everything has a counter,

[oozeboss]

Ah, the old "if you can't beat it, call it cheese" ploy!

Another Nottingham tradition safely buried in the cess-pit of history.

(Someone here's sig has a brilliant play on the scissors - paper - rock game with one element reinforcing the element it does beat & asking for a rules revision of that which it doesn't. It's highly relevant to this discussion.)

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

(The dancing marshmellows, otoh, have no relevance whatsoever, but are fun.)

[paradox]

Right now? Hamelin (either version) Too damned cheesy!

[Cats Laughing]

The big difference I see between this game (and warmachine/hordes) vs the other game (warhammer/40k) is that this game (and warmachine/hordes) is unabashed about how powerful and special each and every model is.

To quote(misquote?) Syndrome from "The Incredibles": "Once everyone is super, no one will be"

I think that quote fits this game, and if you go in expecting everything to both be cheesy and not cheesy(due to the everything is factor) at the same time, then it works so much better.

[Mach_5]

Found it, oozeboss:

Dear Wyrd,

Rock is broken cuddle please!!!!

Paper is balanced just fine.

Sincerely,

Scissors

[oozeboss]

Thank you - that's exactly the one I referred to.

A work of genius, and probably the wittiest sig here

(which is really saying something, as there are some classics).

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

[Csonti]

The nekima lure list was claimed to be impossible to beat and a pure cheesefest by some.

FYI

[Ratty]

I eat cheese for breakfast.

[oozeboss]

I eat cheese for breakfast.

:nod:

God bless The UnderEmpire!

(A very furry, verminous god that is!)

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

[Math Mathonwy]

Right, to me its a bit of an evolution of the Warmachine model. Where lots of things seemed broken but if everyone has access to broken combos then they are not broken.

Malifaux takes it to the next level and basically almost every model feels broken in a vacuum. That balance comes from them all being equally crazy and broken.

To be honest, that "everything is broken so none is"-model would work a lot better if everything indeed was broken. I mean, WM/Hordes players seem to honestly believe that while at the same time there's lots of units that never see play as they are considered severely sub optimal. As for Malifaux, I'm rather certain that most people agree that, say, Perdita is more broken than Ramos (to pick a random example).

Not saying that using Perdita is cheesy, mind you.

OTOH, the way I define cheesy is not "invincible" as most detractors seem to. As that's simply a stupid definition. I define it as being something that, when it works, gives the other player no chance to do "their thing" and leads to unsatisfying games. Then again, I enjoy a close-fought fight more than a massacre, no matter who wins (meaning that a close loss is preferable to a massacre win for me).

Another funny thing with the people who think that nothing is broken is that cuddles happen. Now, if nothing is too powerful, then the developers are obviously wrong Cuddling things.

[viggo3000]

Csonti: I know, the first way that the trigger worked just felt like ruleabuse. I started to play the army when the uppdate came.

[Doctor Amos]

To quote someone else's sig (and I cannot recal who has it)

"Rule 1: Try not to be a dick."

There's a difference between being powerful and being unfun. Unfun elements involve, but are not limited to: Stealing opposing resources/models, destroying opposing resources (especially cards in hand), using models or tactics that cannot be fought or defended against using conventional means ('Dida is powerful, but she fights normal. Alp-bombing eliminates the relivancy of armor, defense, H2W, etc. It's much less fun), and intentionally stalling the game.

[nilus]

Another funny thing with the people who think that nothing is broken is that cuddles happen. Now, if nothing is too powerful, then the developers are obviously wrong Cuddling things.

Well nothing is perfect. I was just saying that a lot of things in Malifaux feel broken till you play them and see that they really are not.

[gregdorf]

I agree with Nilus, I have read profiles and thought wow that is powerful but when we actually sat down and played it out it seemed to a lot more balanced then first glance. One thing also to keep in mind the is a scenario based game. Sure Hamlin seems OTT, but play against him in a slaughter scenario and all those ease to kill and summon rats turn into a huge negative.

[notmikehill]

It's really hard to have a "cheese" list in this game because it isn't caster kill like Warmachine normally is. One guy in my LGS swears by Levi and Ramos and uses them for every scenario, but if destroy the evidence is flipped, his powerhouse list can sometimes become out maneuvered by faster models that can escape on the board.

[Natty]

Pandora.

I don't play her anymore.

Nothing is more unfun than making your opponents entire crew fall back because of her overpowered trigger. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for them, it's just not fun.

[viggo3000]

Another thing that you always have to have in mind is the mindeset of the player on the other side of the table. If i face a new guy or a player that i know that i usuly win against i will play a weaker list. Pandora has caused som outcry at our club.

[AkumaKaze]

Most of the guys (and the few gals, btw) at our LGS are VERY competitive! In "Warmahordes" we are always looking to find the most sick combos we possibly can for each army (I play trolls, not very hard to find them for me!) and after playing them (and usually stomping our opponent into the dirt) we sit back and look to see if anything can beat/counter it. You will run into these type of things in any game where combos happen. Yes, Lillith and Perdita are probably the best Masters in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable, you just might have to find a different angle to approach your victories than running at them with the "axe to face" technique.

[Csonti]

Pandora.

I don't play her anymore.

Nothing is more unfun than making your opponents entire crew fall back because of her overpowered trigger. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for them, it's just not fun.

So you changed to the Dreamer.

Yes, Pandora will beat you if you just walk across the board in open terrain and in one bunch. But that is not Pandora's fault.

Seriously I think the cuddle Pandora got is quite enough to make her playable. Her trigger needs a Crow (a big one if you want to be sure to succeed) and that does not appear in every hand you draw. Routing an entire crew? Just don't place your models too tight and she is good for 1 model per cast IF she has a Crow and you can't resist. And you have many other methods to lower her potential (using terrain, generating LoS-blocking effects, chosing high Wp crew and enhancing that further with effects and spells etc.).

Btw Collette's spell that removes from play is just as nasty. With a Tome in hand (or drawn) and an SS burned she has a very decent 40+% chance to remove anything from play. If she fails, then it is "just" a one turn removal. Meh.

So I just join the "everybody is broken so actually nobody is broken" choir.