Jump to content

The Dreamer/LCB is overpowered


Raintar
 Share

Recommended Posts

Firstly, I hate putting these threads out there, mostly because they cause a stir, people arguing etc. But it needs to be said...and now to explain why:

Lord Chompy Bits is the only Master with 3 AP, he has melee expert, the triggers Flay and Onslaught, with paired Cb 5. With paired and 8 soulstones in a scrap (a no-brainer), you will kill any non-master unit you attack with one actions worth of attacking. You can do this by chaining Onslaught triggers and with paired to get the suit you need and soulstones to drop it doesn't matter what your opponent has, you will chain on them all day and there's really nothing they can do about it. Flay is also an amazing trigger and great for a finishing blow making your minimum damage 4 which is pretty damn good.

Now the second reason he's overpowered is that he can summon his entire army on you in one turn and THEN charge you with a master that has ridiculous combat prowess. So after you have to deal with him you have to deal with his buddies immediately as well. And his buddies consist of Lelu and Lilitu. Lelu is arguably one of the strongest per cost models of killing power in the game and Lilitu is great for finishing off any models your army didn't kill with it's 4" range. And after summoning them in one turn before he charges they all activate TOGETHER meaning they get one action before the Lelu/Lilitu go and destroy everything.

The third and most important reason why the Dreamer is op is the Daydreams. Using the Daydreams you can Companion up and keep pulling LCB towards their team. Your action will be move for 6", and then pull LCB for 4" with Lead Nightmares. This will happen 3 times for a total of 12" pushed towards the enemy (it will be roughly 9"-10" forward because you need to line up your daydreams so that they don't get in the way of each other. Then the last action taken by the third daydream will be Calm Nightmares so that the dreams can summon the entire army of Lelu/Lilitu and then turn into LCB and charge in with your 6" charge and 3" range and 2 extra attacks to spare.

So your second turn will look something like this:

-Daydream 1/2/3

Companion

Move 6"

Pull LCB 4"

LAST daydream turn LCB into Dreamer

-Dreamer

Frightening Dream with trigger

Summon all Lelu/Lilitu as close as possible to the enemy

Turn into LCB

-LCB

Charge in and Onslaught everything down to size, don't be afraid to soulstone it

Generally you want to kill masters last due to soulstones but if they have less then 3 soulstones you can go for it

-YOUR OPPONENT GETS ONE ACTIVATION

-Lelu/Lilitus Bond

Please don't comment if you don't bother reading my post, thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 130
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Lord Chompy Bits is the only Master with 3 AP,

Two things - Perdita and Hamelin also have 3 AP, and for LCB it's 3AP between two models, which is technically the lowest AP count-per-model of any Master. In any case, I might as well use the same logic to say that Marcus is broken because he's the only Master with Alpha.

he has melee expert, the triggers Flay and Onslaught, with paired Cb 5. With paired and 8 soulstones in a scrap (a no-brainer), you will kill any non-master unit you attack with one actions worth of attacking.

So he's good at killing stuff. He's also great at dying when your opponent gets a chance to hit back - his defensive stats are a joke.

Honestly, the thing about Dreamer/LCB crews is that they have this outragous offensive power, but very little resiliance. They will put out some pain when they hit your crew, but they won't last long when they start getting hit themselves.

None of the above, however really matters. It hasn't even been a month since Book 2 was released and people are still getting used to the rules. Some things might seem particularly strong or weak at the moment, but give it a few months and I'm willing to bet that opinions will change as they understand the playstyles and rules better. The same happened with book 1. Actually, the same seems to happen with every new rules release I've ever seen with any table-top wargame, ever.

I understand you're concerned and I understand that you wanted to generate discussion, but the manner of your post only reminds me of the ill-thought out, knee-jerk reactions people have had with past releases in other game systems. In other words, you're not convincing me that you have a valid point.

Edited by Rathnard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok see the Ronin thread posted here:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9814&highlight=ronin+broken

Last post of the thread from EricJ: I think it's been a great discussion, but the bottom line is that the Ronin are not going to be getting any changes in the foreseeable future.

2 Months later: Run Through changed from 1 action to 2.

OH LOOK WHAT HAPPPENED. Look who was right about Ronin, a post from EricJ himself but I digress...

I've played twice with the dreamer and both games were an absolute slaughter but that's not the point that I won, it's the fact that nothing in the game can counter the Dreamers ability to charge with LCB and drop the entire list on your head, especially when you can drop offensive powerhouses like Lelu from running through your entire list not to mention LCB with 8 soulstones.

It's ok if you don't understand how the strategy of charging from across the board and summoning your entire army on your opponents head isn't good I can't help you. But try using your head a little and try to think how that might be useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've played twice with the dreamer and both games were an absolute slaughter but that's not the point that I won, it's the fact that nothing in the game can counter the Dreamers ability to charge with LCB and drop the entire list on your head, especially when you can drop offensive powerhouses like Lelu from running through your entire list not to mention LCB with 8 soulstones.

It's ok if you don't understand how the strategy of charging from across the board and summoning your entire army on your opponents head isn't good I can't help you. But try using your head a little and try to think how that might be useful.

This will not work against a good opponent and there are many ways around this.

Sometimes the simplest solutions will cut this to peices, other masters iwll require a more complex strategy. Dependent upon what crew you take will also determine how effective your alpha strike is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not putting my runningbacks in games where they're playing against the best running defense, nor am I putting my wide recievers up against the best passing defense in the league. Common sense, right? What most people don't ask is which is the worst defense against the pass, then recruiting the WR from their opponents team... Even better.

Point here is not to figure out how your strengths match up against your opponent's strength, but sometimes you win by simply taking his strengths away.

LCB is squishy- he can dish it out but can't take counter attacks. He'll look for isolated elements of your army and play the 4-5:1 model ratio, kill your model then try to get out of there.

So 1) bunch up your crew together less than 30 mm apart. At most if a nightmare bomb drops, ideally your models clog up the nightmare's effectiveness by only letting them bring 2 models to bear against mine.

Or set a screen of witch hunters in front of your main guild force ( less than 8" away) if your opponent takes the bait, they're now vulnerable to counterattack (kill daydreams, alps, and stitched)

I agree. I think LCB will initially be a tough opponent until we start thinking and getting used to how to take him down...

So, no... I don't think he's overpowered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, as AvatarForm nicely put it, he is a glass cannon. He pays for his destructive and assassination abilities with the over-all lack of durability for all of his models. None of them are very hard to kill bar Him because of use SS and Lilitu due to her high defense and her Wp duel to target her. The rest will go down if you hit them with a wet towel.

As for your attitude, seriously man, calm down. Try playing him some more and you will see he is not that horribly powerful. Try against a variety of masters and see what happens. Who did you even play him against? Against masters who would want to support their army, he is nearly an instant kill for them. But thats how this game works. It's been fine from the beginning and is fine now to have models that others just can not deal with well. It's always been that way and it will always be this way.

I've played him more then a fair bit and played against him nearly as much. There are a great deal of things he can do to you to mess you up, but he is also easy to kill if you can nail him down. You need to stay spread out and watch his threat range. His crew is all offensive, you need to be ready to deal with them when they come out. Stall activations for your big guys untill he either makes a move this turn, or doesn't. Then just go for your objectives and be done with it.

If this game was about nothing but killing the opponent, he would be a very tough master to beat. But it's not.

What counters the Dreamer's ability to alpha strike you is smart positioning and good use of terrain. You limit the space he has to drop his friends off and you obliterate the ones he leaves behind.

The Dreamer is also a careful combination of abilities which can be broken by the death of a few models, his Daydreams. When they go down, his power drops dramatically, why do you think he has the spell to make more?

Yes, LCB is the second strongest melee caster in the game behind Lady Justice and possibly more lethal then her due to the Dreamers ability to deliver him. He hits hard, fast, and viciously. But if your ready for it (ie after you have had the shock of playing him once) you can generally adapt. You put blockers out front and try to stay away from his drop zone. You block him with bases and terrain, reducing where he can pop out. Yes in a vacuum with no terrain (We all love playing on tables like this right?) he is crazy because he can come from any where. But there is terrain (on most tables) and plenty of places to go so you can avoid him.

Really there isnt much more to say beyond this to you. He is a glass cannon. Play him more against different masters and you will learn what makes him weak and what makes him strong. You played him twice man, you've barely gotten to know him. People who played Pandora twice screamed broken and Wyrd knew well enough not to cuddle her because she wasn't broken. Just like Dreamer/LCB is not broken. You'll learn how to beat him the more you play him, that's the best advice I can give you. Play him more. 2 games still puts you in the same place as someone who has read the rules a few times in my book. Get more experience and you will see where his cracks are.

Edited by karn987
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is like saying Rasputina is broken because her opponent was stupid enough to put all of his models together in base to base with low defense ones up front. Yeah, AOE's are awesome in that situation.

Summoning your entire army within a few inches is amazing if the opponent sucks and runs his army in a brick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And they cuddled Incite/Pacify a LOT.

I was trying to give a comparison >< not meant to be picked apart. She wasn't cuddled, Incite/Pacify were corrected to reflect their intentions. But thats off topic!

@Talos: Really they are saying he's weak? Interesting, first I've heard of that before. Thanks for the different perspective though =D, can you send me a PM with why you guys view him as weak? I think it would be very interesting and maybe I can add something to my tactica from it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An army full of the double L's will die off quick if you don't have terror tots to grow. Seriously this list you posted will murder in the first two rounds then will get murdered off by round 3-4 easily with most good players. You don't have any good defensive models, aside from the dreamer and you tactic require having a good control hand or really lucky fate flip to pull off in a way that your opponent couldn't counter.

But maybe your opponent didn't have time to learn how to counter you tactics that you spent a lot of time to develop in the TWO games you played. Tell your opponent to take out one gender of the L's first along with the Daydreams. Your tactic will be hosed by 2nd or 3rd turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've played LCB in half a dozen games and he's been good but not the powerhouse that you are speaking of. I've won more than I've lost, but there has often been a pivotal point in the game that brought me victory. Once more people get used to him I feel that his power will diminish somewhat.

As an aside, I find it funny that the first knee-jerk reaction thread that I've seen on these forums came from someone who's sig reads:

Dear Wyrd,

Rock is broken cuddle please!!!!

Paper is balanced just fine.

Sincerely,

Scissors

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lord Chompy Bits is the only Master with 3 AP, he has melee expert, the triggers Flay and Onslaught, with paired Cb 5.

Actually this is incorrect. LCB only gets 2 AP. He shares a total of 3 AP with the dreamer. So in fact by model counts its 3 AP over two models + 1 melee.

There are several masters with Fast, Almost any master can hire the Student of Conflict and gain fast. And lets not talk about the Vikis(with 4 AP + 2 Melee between two models)

As for the rest of your post, I suggest two games is not enough time to really evaluate a crew. Let your opponents see what you can do and see how they adapt to it. The dreamer is a whole new set of tricks but there are ways to shut him down. And if you really feel something is broken or unbalanced I suggest instead of just saying why its broken, you also suggest a solution to the problem.

Edited by nilus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you try to go toe-to-toe with dreamer you'll be hard pressed. So don't let LCB play on his terms: set up screens with low point models to sacrifice for a counter attack; he thrives on crew synergies... So don't worry about the LL's or Cop-eye... Kill off daydreams, stitched and alps first; Dreamer controls the crew and the army thrives off the li'l snot. His game is to go in drop nightmares, change into LCB for a melée attack dropping a tome to trigger back into dreamer... So any tactics that drain cards give him less options...the point here is if he's denied tomes to change back to Dreamer, LCB is less likely to show up at risk of losing him in the inevitable counter-strike.

Against LCB, you'll do best not pitting your strengths against his, but neutralizing his strengths so he never gets his game going.

When new troop types come out there's a learning curve both in playing it and going against it. Funny that guys who haven't won with him yet gennerally don't post... Those who win do and laud the greatness of the model. Their opponents usually cry "broken!" (which in turn makes those who haven't won with him yet feel even more crappy that they can't win with a broken model...)

In spite of you probably feeling pretty beat up from the replies, this is a really good thread ironically turning from LCB is Overpowered to "here's how to take him down"...

Edited by Seventeen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the OP is the one playing LCB. :suspiciou And what you are saying is totally correct. His list is geared to an all out assault with no defensive capabilities.

His tactic of putting his Daydreams out in the frontline would not fly at all in games against me because they would be dead before they got to pull LCB into combat. (I have my ways, just ask my opponents) So his Daydreams would be dead before they pulled that trick off. And I would never play a melee game against a melee monster. Stay back and pick off his crew which consists of high value models that don't play at their peak with LCB.

He also never once said anything about strategies or schemes which is what determines the winner. Heck I lost all my crew several times and still pulled off more VP because my opponent focused more on killing all my models rather than focus on the objectives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay the part that seems over powered to me in the game I played VS LCB is alps.

That’s right the new little 3 pointer,

Read the alps skills, they can be dropped in a swarm by the dreamer and cause any models in range to die just for activating, or if they have one or two wounds left there slow and take another damage if they move or attack anything.

yes if you spread out it becomes a little more difficult to do this but its next to impossible to kill LCB army if you have slaughter or any other kill the master objectives and you get swarmed by these little way to cheep monsters that will kill you just by being near you.

The alps only costing 3 SS and being able to do what they do is even worse then the woes and Pandora in fact i think that compared LCB with alps is almost 5 times stronger then woes with Pandora pre Cuddling. Yes Pandora could move and the woes could wound but the woes are hard to get into range and live where as the alps get placed in turn one in range, the fact that the only way to beat there massive wound giving is to beat a WP test of 12 with a -4 flip. and if you fail you take one wound for each alp in 3 inches and if you die from this well then they summon a new alp.

Add coppelus and you will soon have more alps then you can deal with that will get sucked back into the dreamers head and spat right around you..

Alps if anything need a tweak in what they can do, Like giving a 3 wound max cap or making them rare 4. but there skills added to the fact that the dreamer can place your army after flying or doing the LCB pulling its alot of closer models that get to activate fully and you could have one dead or near dead army just for activating your own models.

-Cheers,

Andrew

Edited by TimeLapse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its powerful, but not that strong. You just spread out. When they jump a model, you hose them down with Blasts or damaging pulses and auras. Heck things that deal damage when they die would just laugh at them. Think Shatter and Pier Ravage etc.

It's all about learning how to deal with them. Yes in a vacuum with no terrain, the perfect set up, and an opponent who doesn't know whats coming, it is nearly un-stoppable. But that's not practical nor is it realistic. There are ways of dealing with it. The Dreamer often forces the opponent to react to his actions. Especially once he springs his forces on you. If he disgorges Alps onto you, you have your other models deal with them. If your spaced out, they can't do a ton to you.

Though in hind sight, I could see these guys with a Rare 4 or 5 or something like that. But nothing lower then that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yeah, its soo wrong here the example that i use when explaning why Alps are the most over powered model in the game.

So I have two models lets say the Viktorias on the table.

now the dreamer places 6 alps all around lets my models, so that each model would be with in 1" of 3 alps and all 6 alps would be with in 3" of both my models.

I activate my first model and take one WP test with the max amount of - flips. I will always fail this with 90% of the models in game since the normal wp is about 5 or 6. But the viks have a wp of 6 So i fail my first models morol becuase one of the cards i drew was a 5. So now she takes 6 wounds. she is now slow so he has two actions one being melee only. she cant move becuae if he does he takes 3 wounds and dies, she cant attack becaue she takes 3 wounds and dies. And that is if im lucky enough to have more then 6 wounds left to start with. Armor and other defenive traits dont matter since the gain 1 wound from each model.

So unless i am am mistaken, the dreamer with 6 alps can in fact kill/make useless both Victoras in one turn without even hitting any of them.

And if you use soul stones to soak since there all comeing in at 1 wound you can only soak one WD per stone. so thats three stones gone to keep her alive and make a single strike that is if you can use 3 ss in a turn... not sure.

Anyways if its not the victoias its could be almost any other master, with 6 alps thats 6 wounds for failing the will power test and 6 more for moveing or taking a strike action.

The only master who has a hope of doing anything is perdtia with her Immue to infulance she does not take these test, also with her see the unseen. And then you have to add the gov proxy and only family members with stubborn so that you will have a starting wp of 10 and then only a 1 will fail. Then you can fight off the alp army of death but thats the only list i give a fighting chance to. if they kill the proxy right away, then you only have a WP of 8 on most of your models and that with a max - flip will = fail 75% of the time.

It surprises me that with armies like pandora and units like the Ronin being to powerful for what they can do that Wyrd would make a model like the alp that is 10 times more powerful. You would think that would get sorted out in playtesting.

-Andrew

-Just some food for thought.

Andrew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its powerful, but not that strong. You just spread out. When they jump a model, you hose them down with Blasts or damaging pulses and auras. Heck things that deal damage when they die would just laugh at them. Think Shatter and Pier Ravage etc.

It's all about learning how to deal with them. Yes in a vacuum with no terrain, the perfect set up, and an opponent who doesn't know whats coming, it is nearly un-stoppable. But that's not practical nor is it realistic. There are ways of dealing with it. The Dreamer often forces the opponent to react to his actions. Especially once he springs his forces on you. If he disgorges Alps onto you, you have your other models deal with them. If your spaced out, they can't do a ton to you.

Though in hind sight, I could see these guys with a Rare 4 or 5 or something like that. But nothing lower then that.

Yes but not every list has blast damage or pulse arua effects, this is the first list i have seen that has this kind of power. the guild will have a good chance at them but only really the family. Now with models that do damage when they die, they dont do enough noramly to kill a alp, and when they die they are replaced with an unwounded new alp. so even if you die you will be replaced by even more alps.

The main point here is that they are in the dreamers list the most powerful model in the game.

Yes if you are playing one of the two lists that has a papa loco or a the gremlin loco you might be able to do something but, remember that alps are not in the game untill there controler wants to place them so you cant be sure where they will get placed and models like papa loco may end up killing your own models trying to kill alps becase they will be placed around models and will not be by themselfs in the open.

and if i was playing vs a raspertina list with shatter models i would simply place my alps 3 inchs away from your models, you activate take 6 wounds die shatter and i would not be effected. i might becuase of room have to have one or 2 that get damage but then the dieing model gets replaced by another alp. once everything is dead at that spot i suck the alps back up in the dreamers head and find another spot to spray them.

you can say that there are aruas and abilities that will help but the fact still remains that they are more powerful then older models that were cuddled like ronin and pandora and only a few players will be able combat this.

I would subjest to players not to play LCB+alps list vs noob players it is the kind of list that will cause players to quit before they begin.

I love the game but if we are talking about overpowered models alps in a LCB list is the most powerful model in the game IMHO. and only 3 points? come on thats is joke.

-Andrew

Edited by TimeLapse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information