Starting with Zoraida, looking for information on models for her Crew

[Sigesti]

Hello there folks!

I'm a recent refugee from the worlds of Warhammer and Warmachine, and I've found myself utterly charmed by Malifaux.

I purchased the book, and after having read it ravenously have decided that I'm a fan of Zoraida and her trickiness. I'm about to put in an order, and I wanted to probe the community a bit on their thoughts for some of the models out there that intrigued me. I'm also still getting used to the smaller size of the armies here, so do bear with me.

The Waldgeist (another unreleased model) seems...quirky, and only useful for a few select maps. Anyone tried proxying him much?

Are there any Enthralled creatures that players find handy? Papa Loco kind of interests/frightens me, and I've been looking a bit at some of the goblins/warpigs.

Character wise, the other personality that really interested me (besides Zoraida) was Hamelin. The model is delightful and the abilities sound pretty fun as well. It seemed as though he and Zoraida together could be a power group of Obeyish goodness. However, for a 25 pt game, would Hamelin be too expensive to try out there?

Second place for characters was Hans. Neverborn seems to lack range, and I've always been a fan of snipers, and he seems pretty flexible.

Silurids seem to be great quick units that can cross the board quickly and sieze objectives.

Doppleganger seems...flexible? The model's great, but I'm curious how people have found it in play.

For big beefy fellows, I've been looking at Bad Juju, the Mature Nephilim, and the Hooded Rider (although the Rider isn't out yet). How have people found them? From what I've read, some people seem to find Bad Juju slightly overpriced, while the Mature can pair well with Zoraida's Obey. The character and theming of the rider is pretty appealing though.

I considered Teddy, but I personally am not so much a fan of the demonic innocent toy creatures (Candy & Kade as well). Think I'd be shooting myself in the foot to not try and squeeze some of them in?

Overall, the models that have intrigued me most are (roughly in order):

Zoraida (clearly)

Hamelin

Hooded Rider

Various Nephilim

Doppleganger

Silurids (what can I say? I like speedy creatures)

Hans

Bad Juju

Waldgeist

I'd love to hear some thoughts from you all, especially on how they might work with Zoraida. I'm hoping to get a few games under my belt soon, as my brain is still trying to switch off from thinking about Warhammer [massive] Armies and to a smaller skirmish setting.

Thanks much!

[n0signal]

Well, others will no doubt disagree with me here (and they're probably much more experienced Neverborn players so you should probably listen to them - I only play Zoraida in terms of Neverborn masters) but you should probably just take-it-easy and jump in with the Crew Box. You get three Silurids and Bad Juju, which comes to 25SS exactly; you'll also need to pick up a Voodoo Doll totem as she summons it for free during the game.

IMO, Zoraida's crew box is themed very strongly to the Treasure Hunt or Claim Jump type scenarios, and the reason people swap out bits of it is for when you're trying to get Slaughter or Assassinate off - Zoraida can pull off the latter quite well by herself tho, by stacking the deck in her favour (with Crystal Ball) and Obeying an enemy model to attack their own master. But still... if you want punch then you'll often struggle with her crew box.

Bad Juju is over-costed yeah, definitely. But this is because you're paying for him to come on anywhere on the board, and have the potential to return for a couple of soulstones. As I say, for scenarios such as Claim Jump, Treasure Hunt or Breakthrough he's great, because he can often just appear where you need him. He is, however, frightfully slow, which is why you have the zippy Silurids.

Other models I have used in my Zoraida crew are Hamelin and the Gremlins/Pigs. Hamelin, for me, was a bit of a let-down - he's extremely easy to kill because of his low defence and large base and the fact he'll be up front trying to Obey things. So, I found him way too much of a hassle for 10SS, but I'll have to try him again at some point in the future, maybe in larger games where there's more stuff to distract attention from him.

The Gremlins I took because they give Zoraida a ranged option (12") and you can negate their bad aim and Whoops rule by Bewitching their target first (so that it can't cheat fate against them) - they proved to be quite good actually. I took the Warpig with her and I removed the Stampeding rule with Hex, so that I didn't have to worry about losing control over it, and I obeyed it quite a lot for extra charges or attacks. The Warpig is also good because it's fast, can heal itself with Eat Your Fill, has low Wp for Obeys and can remove Corpse/Scrap counters.

[Joona]

Hi there. Zoraida is a strange master in the sense that none of the Neverborn models are really designed to be primarily used with her and she really doesn't do much of damage to the enemy. Compare for example to the Nephilim who have a lot of synergy with Lilith. Her crew will also vary a lot depending on the scenario you're playing, though Assasinate and Slaughter will be harder to pull off with her than masters that can do direct damage. Minions will always have it a bit tougher killing a master as they aren't allowed to use soulstones while the opposing master can (for a while).

You should definetely start playing with small games, 20-25SS. It might not be the optimal size for every crew but you'll quickly learn to remember any rules for your minions the games will go fast. Still, it will allow you a lot of room to learn how the models interact together.

Silurids will be great for Treasure Hunt and Reconnoiter, they move fast and have a toolbox of abilities to help on surviving enemy attacks. Waldgeist will probably be amazing for Claim Jump, if there isn't a forest in the middle of the table, move one there and he can hit anything that tries get in your way. He can also be a lot of help by providing cover for any low defense big hitters like Mature Nephilim.

Hooded Rider should work well with pretty much any master. He's a versatile model who can wreak a lot of havoc, he's fast and if need be, your opponent won't be able to shoot him. With an obey or two he can move to good position or hit a little more when needed. All the Nephilim fit to this category too, fast and they hit hard. Terror Tots are also great for Reconnoiter and Treasure Hunt if you have any small :masks to give them for sprinting.

Hamelin is something you don't want in smaller games but he will most likely have his uses in big games. He's not cheap and he dies if something gets too close but he will keep your enemies on their toes as they don't want to go near any board edges and Irresistible Dance can make low WP models that were supposed to do something evil, stop in their tracks. He's also able to cast Obey twice in a turn which could be big at some point. The worst thing about him is though that he'll likely want to use big :masks which Zoraida will usually like to keep for herself.

Doppelganger is a strange model. It can do pretty much anything you want it to do. Doppelganger can change from a measly caster to a melee monster if need be. Copy for example Proper Manners from Zoraida and Mature Nephilims Paired Claws and she can hit hard and survive if someone attacks her after that. Or copy Bayou Two-Card and Obey from Zoraida and do nasty stuff. The problem is, she sounds almost too amazing on paper but in a game you might forget that she's not too survivable and get her killed because of low defense or something similar. Borrowing your opponents abilities can be fun though. And the she gives on your opponents initiative flips can win you games in the later turns.

Bad Juju might not always be the most amazing model but he'll likely have his uses at times. He does hit hard and might pop up close to something your opponent wants to protect. Though he can't be obeyed and he can't summon close enough to hit anything, you might be able to obey something closer to him or just activate him last and with Doppelganger you'll probably have the initiative next turn anyway. He'll quickly kill models like Ninõ or any other annoying things hiding somewhere. Still a Mature Nephilim will probably be your best bet for a big hitter as it hits even harder and can ignore line of sight for charges and is quite fast anyways. Hans isn't necessarily an amazing shooter but with Obeys from both Zoraida and the Doppel/Voodoo Doll, he might be able to pull off an extra shot or two. And with the errata he might be able to do real damage too.

Papa Loco could be good but he might also kill you if you're unlucky with your card flips. You can't always look at the Crystal Ball and it'd be sort of a waste to use it for activating Papa anyways when you could use it to mess around with your enemy. Nurses can be used to make Terror Tots or similar cheap models hit accurately and hard though they will die after that.

I'd probably just leave the Gremlins and Pigs out as you'll have to waste a lot of actions to just keep them from killing each other/theirselves and paying 3SS for a Gremlin is a lot when you can't summon more. And if you don't get the mask for the Hex, your Warpig will Stampede over your own models unless there's a Gremlin to keep him in line. And even if you get one, you've just paid 12SS and used two actions for a Pig that probably won't be doing as much as a cheaper Mature Nephilim would. In a two master Brawl you could of course use Zoraida and Som'er Teeth Jones together and they should make an excellent tag team. You can use Som'er and his Mosquitoes to discard you opponents hand and after that the Obeys will do funny things and your opponent has no way to really defend himself against your Pigs and Gremlins. I'm still waiting for my chance to try them out together for fun times.

So, go buy the Zoraida crew box, Lilith box, Voodoo Doll, Hans if you like him, maybe Hamelin and wait for the Hooded Rider and Waldgeists. Waldgeist should be available in two weeks. You'll survive for a while with just the Zoraida box but you'll be wanting more soon.

[pancake ss]

Baby kade's not let me don yet. I go with the convictgunslinger.

For ranged fire power that can do lots of damage. Zoraida's crew has no ranged weapons. Convict's rapid fire is great he's Deffo worth 5 soul stones. Baby kade is great,harmless is good,and good DF & CB.

[tenabrae]

Hamelin, for me, was a bit of a let-down - he's extremely easy to kill because of his low defence and large base and the fact he'll be up front trying to Obey things. So, I found him way too much of a hassle for 10SS, but I'll have to try him again at some point in the future, maybe in larger games where there's more stuff to distract attention from him.

I find he's quite good in scenerios where the enemy needs to be somewhere, place him so that to get (wherever) they will be in his spell range and he can obey and piper's lure them ... if they happen to be near enough a table edge and you can move them so they'll stay in range, you can even obey them to the edge and lure them out of play.

[Sigesti]

Hey all! Thanks much for the replies. I appreciate you putting up with another newbie

I'll likely be picking up the Zoraida starter box, as it seems like a good way to start (and Silurids sound delightful).

Waldgeist will probably be amazing for Claim Jump, if there isn't a forest in the middle of the table, move one there and he can hit anything that tries get in your way. He can also be a lot of help by providing cover for any low defense big hitters like Mature Nephilim.

Yeah, the more I hear about Waldgeist, the more I like how quirky he is. I like quirky

Hooded Rider should work well with pretty much any master. He's a versatile model who can wreak a lot of havoc, he's fast and if need be, your opponent won't be able to shoot him. With an obey or two he can move to good position or hit a little more when needed.

Can Hooded Rider be obeyed? He has 'Immune to Influence' which I had been lead to believe meant that Obey didn't work.

~snip various Hamelin info~

Informative stuff. I think I might get Hamelin just for the model, but probably will hold off on him until bigger games.

Doppelganger is a strange model...The problem is, she sounds almost too amazing on paper but in a game you might forget that she's not too survivable and get her killed because of low defense or something similar. Borrowing your opponents abilities can be fun though. And the she gives on your opponents initiative flips can win you games in the later turns.

Interesting...I think that's about sold me. I think I'm going to get a Malifaux child and convert it into a doppleganger!

Baby kade's not let me don yet. I go with the convictgunslinger.

For ranged fire power that can do lots of damage. Zoraida's crew has no ranged weapons. Convict's rapid fire is great he's Deffo worth 5 soul stones. Baby kade is great,harmless is good,and good DF & CB.

Convict Gunslinger is interesting, and not too expensive. I wasn't as keen on his model, but perhaps I'll give him a second look.

[Joona]

Can Hooded Rider be obeyed? He has 'Immune to Influence' which I had been lead to believe meant that Obey didn't work.

True, he can't be obeyed. I should have looked at my book again. Or just remember that every Neverborn Construct is immune to influence.

[Rathnard]

After kicking arse with Pandora I've just started trying out a brand new Zoraida crew myself. Last night was my first game against Ramos. I lost the game but I probably would have done better if I hadn't ignored my Reconnoite strategy and went for a slaughter instead.

Zoraida's playstyle definitely takes some getting used to. I decided to hang back well out of range with her and cast obey/hex on Ramos's minions. Bayou two-card was pretty great for getting the spells off but choosing the right timin on when to two-card (and by extension, when to cheat out something you'd like to two-card) is definitely key.

I consistently forgot to even try using crystal ball, let alone bewitch, and never remembered to use the when casting zoraida's spells through the Voodoo doll, which probably would have helped too.

Depite her ranged capabilities, I'm thinking Zoraida might be a bit more useful up closer to the action. That way she's more capable of assisting her minions as needed, rather than being forced to focus on the one model connected to her voodoo doll.

The crew I used was straight from the box, so three silurids and Bad Juju. The Silurids were ridiculously fast - far quicker than I had expected with leap, and I actually managed to cross the entire board (one corner to another) and engage Ramos with all three in turn 2! I'm not sure I can honestly gauge how good they are in combat - Ramos lived (unsurprisingly) and my opponent responded by killing them with exploding spiders (next time I'm spreading them out!).

Bad Juju was a disapointment, honestly. If I'd used him to hold a quater like I should have he would have done ok. But for a melee minion I think the MNephilim would have been a far better choice (especially against exploding spiders).

Next time I face Ramos, I might give the Silurids another try. But Bad Juju is probably getting replaced by a MNephilim.

Has anyone had success with Bad Juju? For sheer damage output and as a target for Obey the MNephilim seems to have him beat. All that leaves is using him to fulfil non-killing mission objectives. He's an easy table-quarter-holder in reconnoite, although even then it begs the question as to why I wouldn't use a much cheaper silurid or terror tot for that job instead? The MNephilim will be better at keeping baddies away for a claim-jump strategy, which just leaves treasure hunt. Is that really the only strategy Bad Juju is good for?

[Zethal]

Bad Juju was a disapointment, honestly. If I'd used him to hold a quater like I should have he would have done ok. But for a melee minion I think the MNephilim would have been a far better choice (especially against exploding spiders).

Next time I face Ramos, I might give the Silurids another try. But Bad Juju is probably getting replaced by a MNephilim.

Has anyone had success with Bad Juju? For sheer damage output and as a target for Obey the MNephilim seems to have him beat. All that leaves is using him to fulfil non-killing mission objectives. He's an easy table-quarter-holder in reconnoite, although even then it begs the question as to why I wouldn't use a much cheaper silurid or terror tot for that job instead? The MNephilim will be better at keeping baddies away for a claim-jump strategy, which just leaves treasure hunt. Is that really the only strategy Bad Juju is good for?

None of the Constructs compare to the mNephilim, especially in Zoraida's crew as Immune to Influence leans toward a liability rather than a benefit.

• Melee Expert > Flurry.

• Armor > Regeneration

• Black Blood > Hard to Wound

• Mobility is >

• Weak damage is > except Noon Rider

• Two great Cb Triggers (one that even has synergy with Dora making the mNeph the better choice for her as well)

• Synergy with other Neph's

• Paired Attack

• Plus two situational but amazing actions (carry is especially nice on the first turn with Zoraida to get her up the board a bit and give her vision if needed to have LoS to a opponent first turn for summon and Obey)

The only Construct that really has anything of note compared to the mNeph with any of the Neverborn Masters is Teddy; toss, out of control and having 10 Severe damage with Teeth are all fun and potentially very useful although situational. But I'd still field two mNeph's over Teddy in any game I'm taking seriously.

His only weakness is having a Ca of 6 while against Sonnia or Samuel

JuJu just does to little for how slow he is (even if it is the mode for other crews), and saving 2 stones for Eternal is just annoying. If he could use that ability once per game for free or if he didn't count as killed - which I understand for slaughter but has to large an impact his usefulness in reconnoiter and claim jump- I might try fielding him again.

He isn't really much better at Treasure Hunt than a mNeph either. His best bet there is to come out early on the first turn and defensive stance while trying to stop opponents from trying to take the treasure with disengaging strikes.

Anyway, at first glace I was very happy with what I thought would be good variety in the Neverborn's pricey models but as it turns out the mNeph just outshines them all with every Master.

[poulpox]

Well, I agree with all that's been said here: I've tried several guys with my Zoraida, namingly Juju, Hans, Hamelin.

My feel was that Hans is good but tricky to play as he can do damage or die VERY quickly, Hamelin I found was leaving me with too little melee skill. Juju is nice but has to be deployed well, as many a time he died as soon as arrived on the table, even with his 12 Wd. My new try is Bishop, which although VERY pricy seems however a really good fighter and more resilient than Juju. We'll see!

[poulpox]

but has to large an impact his usefulness in reconnoiter and claim jump-

Are you sure this is the right way to play Juju? I was understanding that yes he would count as dead for Slaughter purpose, but that he could, considering he would still be in play at the end, still claim jump or have treasure even he he'd died? This is quite an important point to clarify, as if it is as you say I agree Juju has really less potential that I've given him!

[Skell]

I have found Zoraida works well with Tots and Young neph's. Kade wasn't bad either as a forward DF7 tank.

Mostly to out activate my opponent then conduit/+totem obeys funsies.

Getting a young neph a free charge then hitting on next activation was a pretty solid win button.

[Aldyhide]

I've also recently gotten an interest in playing Zoraida. I was interested in Bad Juju at first, but I later figured out that he just wasn't the greatest investment. I'd really prefer to not use the Mneph.

So I need some suggestions on what I can use to fill the empty 10SS. I'm going to be running Silurids for the time being even though I don't much care for them, they just seem rather plain to me.

Any suggestions would still be greatly appreciated.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Aldyhide

[Rathnard]

Well if you're looking for a MNephilim replacement it really depends on what else is in your crew. If you're looking for something without Silurids either, what about this;

Zoraida

Jack Daw 10

Convict Gunslinger 6

Baby Kade 6

Bayou Gremlin 3

Basically, it's all about range and card control. Zoraida's abilities are very card efficient (bayou two-card, bewitch, voodoo doll), and both Jack Daw and the Convict Gunslinger can force your opponent to drop cards just to keep his crew alive and active.

Kade is your go-to baby for face beating, plus his harmless, high Df and potential for terror also helps drain your opponents cards.

The Gremlin is there because he's cheap, he has a gun and he gets you style points. You can Hex away Whoops if it's going to cause you strife, but if the gremlin's not for you then a terror tot for fulfilling random strategies/schemes would be fine too (possibly better ).

Edited May 20, 2010 by Rathnard

[Aldyhide]

Well if you're looking for a MNephilim replacement it really depends on what else is in your crew. If you're looking for something without Silurids either, what about this;

Zoraida

Jack Daw 10

Convict Gunslinger 6

Baby Kade 6

Bayou Gremlin 3

Basically, it's all about range and card control. Zoraida's abilities are very card efficient (bayou two-card, bewitch, voodoo doll), and both Jack Daw and the Convict Gunslinger can force your opponent to drop cards just to keep his crew alive and active.

Kade is your go-to baby for face beating, plus his harmless, high Df and potential for terror also helps drain your opponents cards.

The Gremlin is there because he's cheap, he has a gun and he gets you style points. You can Hex away Whoops if it's going to cause you strife, but if the gremlin's not for you then a terror tot for fulfilling random strategies/schemes would be fine too (possibly better ).

Aha, thank you very much. I had originally thought I'd go with sorrows for getting the opponent to lose his hand, but they'd be pretty...meh if the enemy was Wp duel immune. I'll probably go with the Tots for my foot troops.

I'd thought about Kade too, but I passed him over because I didn't know he had a whopping 7 for Df. So I'd thought I'd trade him for a Waldgeist, which would keep my army to a bit more of a theme (The Baba Yaga does have power over the forest after all.)

What about Candy, I do notice a startling lack of healing ability, and everybody loves free healing flips.

[philgamer]

Well if you're looking for a MNephilim replacement it really depends on what else is in your crew. If you're looking for something without Silurids either, what about this;

Zoraida

Jack Daw 10

Convict Gunslinger 6

Baby Kade 6

Bayou Gremlin 3

Basically, it's all about range and card control. Zoraida's abilities are very card efficient (bayou two-card, bewitch, voodoo doll), and both Jack Daw and the Convict Gunslinger can force your opponent to drop cards just to keep his crew alive and active.

Kade is your go-to baby for face beating, plus his harmless, high Df and potential for terror also helps drain your opponents cards.

The Gremlin is there because he's cheap, he has a gun and he gets you style points. You can Hex away Whoops if it's going to cause you strife, but if the gremlin's not for you then a terror tot for fulfilling random strategies/schemes would be fine too (possibly better ).

How do you hire the Gremlin? He isn't a Mercenary.

[Inquisitor Wall]

Has anyone tried, or is it possible to use a nurse in her crew. Nurses are not undead, unless I missed an updated errat somewhere. I was looking at doing a nurse and Bad Juju. Nurse would give him speed and reactivate. Then once he dies, you can bring him back and do it again.

I could be completly wrong though and the nurse might not even be an option for Zoraida.

[Natty]

Hamelin is something you don't want in smaller games but he will most likely have his uses in big games. He's not cheap and he dies if something gets too close but he will keep your enemies on their toes as they don't want to go near any board edges and Irresistible Dance can make low WP models that were supposed to do something evil, stop in their tracks. He's also able to cast Obey twice in a turn which could be big at some point. The worst thing about him is though that he'll likely want to use big :masks which Zoraida will usually like to keep for herself.

Hamelin's ability was clarified and errata'd. No one, not even Hamelin, can cast obey more than once in a turn. Also, his trigger was clarified to explain that he has to cast a different spell than was first cast (I agree that the wording on that trigger isn't so great as far as clarity goes).

[Wodschow]

Hamelin's ability was clarified and errata'd. No one, not even Hamelin, can cast obey more than once in a turn. Also, his trigger was clarified to explain that he has to cast a different spell than was first cast (I agree that the wording on that trigger isn't so great as far as clarity goes).

I don't know how you interpret it, but...

...

Obey can be cast a second time using this trigger.

Edit:

@philgamer, Gremlins are lower than 4 Wp so can be hired by Zoraida due to her Entrall ability.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Wodschow

[Natty]

Ahhhh, I see where I messed up. You just can't cast obey off another obey with the trigger. You'd have to obey, cast another spell, and trigger that into an obey. Got it.

[Raintar]

One interesting strategy I've played with Zoradia is using Student of Conflict, Nurses and Papa Loco. Basically you get some Terror Tots who are MUCH better then their Canine Horde counterparts for Nurse ammo. And Papa Loco is your ace in the hole who can take out their biggest unit usually by himself. Student of Conflict is there simply to get your ammo another action, increasing their effectiveness.

This list however is only good if you don't mind being cheesy .