Zethal

Quite bluntly thats called editing, and it is a expected process of creating printed material. No one has requested instant perfection, just timely progress. With all due respect that its entirely unfair sir, unless this is happening in areas of the forum I don't frequent, but it certainly not happening here or the rules section. No one expects it to happen tomorrow, we do expect it to happen within a few months or at least told what is going on. We've been waiting for something and told it is coming, it's going to be great and we will hear about it soon. I know that my group at the very least would of been much more willing to continue purchasing models and playing if we had been told, "We are working on creating a pocket size rule book that is updated with all the errata and and FAQ info, as we feel this would be of great use to our players." You could even tease some of the art. Instead we heard nothing besides "soon" and due to that my group lost interest. I sorry if you feel that is how I've treated you. I feel I've given you good praise on the areas you have done very well; your vision, models, balance and unique content. While I've certainly written more about the parts that I'm finding troublesome I've done it to to try and be clear about the problem I've having and give constructive feedback. Additionally because it is the one area of the game that is of great importance to, at the very least, my area. Resulting on a growing distaste for Malifaux; once that started happening I started came here and tried to get my concerns heard. I'm not suggesting the rulebook is a bad idea at all, in fact I've agreed it is a good one. I much preferred the little rulebook that came in some supplemental product for WHFB 7th Ed. That has not been is is not my criticism. This is my criticism. Why is the PDF not including Rising Powers? Will it include the FAQ and Errata for Rising Powers? If not, do I need to purchase the Rules Marshall book to learn about those proposed changes? How long has the errata and FAQ been done? How long ago could you have released that information while you continued to work on layout, art and printing of the book? If the errata is just being finished a couple days before print, why was the focus on the layout, art and getting the new book published rather than creating a easy document for us to reference to play your game? Unless players are closely following this forum they are probably completely unaware of many of the editing mistakes within Rising Powers. I had to mention to my group that The Stolen are not supposed to be unique and then I had to find the thread to prove that was the intention. Why is that information not readily apparent for new players coming to the forum? Why are you expecting me to purchase a book that contains the updated rules, when I've already purchased the first two and this is largely you fixing the mistakes made in the first two? What does 'core rules' mean exactly, besides the LoS, Size, Elevation, Shooting into Combat and other aspect of basic functionality does it also include all of the errata that has been added to the models in the first book? Or do I need to purchase your book to get all of that nicely in one place?

Aye, looking back I was probably a bit frustrated in when I phrased my opinion of it. While I said it isn't a bad thing, my intention was to imply that it was a good thing. Shrug, this was an easy medium to communicate through. I expressed my displeasure, suggested various things to help improve the way the function and did so while watching my play group disappear due to frustration with the company. I feels like it all got ignored and that this promised FAQ and errata was a wonderful way to string us along to purchase content that should of been free a couple months back. There probably won't be a next time. As I doubt I'll purchase anything else from Wyrd. But good luck to them, and I'm glad the rest of you are enjoying the game.

Not hyperbole at all. My play group was very excited about Rising Powers. That it was easily the largest thing to anticipate at Gen Con and to get what was printed was unfortunate. The now many months of lack of communication and seeming neglect to fix this problem, the poor attention to forum questions, the general poor way errata and the FAQ have been handled have left my group disinterested in supporting Wyrd. Then to find out that the promised PDF, that we have literally waited months for, is unlikely to even address the Rising Powers problems... Of course we have house ruled problems and created all sorts of things to play, but then why would we want or need Wyrd? Why would I purchase their rule book for $15 dollars if I've improved their game myself to everyones satisfaction. And if you honestly think that there is no difference between an official ruling and the house rule, well then I'm glad your group feels that way. I've never been in a group that feels they are equal. Now my group and I feel that what should of been a quick rally of the company to address really poor editing and rule writing (which was probably happened in the first place to rush the book out for gen con, regardless of quality of the product they were selling, or maybe something else but they aren't telling us what happened), has turned into a many month long process where Wyrd has found a way they think they will make a buck or two off of their own mistake. Maybe they will, but they certainly lost money in my area, people are spending their funds elsewhere for the holidays because they feel uncared for and neglected. They respect a lot of what Wyrd has created but the way they have handled it has made them apathetic what Wyrd has done well. They won't be making the meer $15 dollars for the one book that would of been bought and shared at the store or passed around for the league, and instead the lost hundreds of dollars in sales over the last 6-8 weeks. As the older players stopped playing and purchasing and thus decreased the number of other players in the area picking it up or new players starting into Malifaux rather then substitutes. They are a very new company in a market that has been notoriously hard to break into. Mistakes like these that aren't handled well have a large impact on a fragile player base.

Not only did I notice it I mentioned in the post you are replying to ... It's frustrating that a lot of our delay in forum responses and general FAQ and errata have likely been delayed because they want to release this rule book. I've watched my group disentergrate because of the incredibly long time it has taken to release something that should of been much simplier than what they have made it. Now I'm not saying that the book isn't a good idea considering how troublesome the initial book and errata are to sort through. But delaying the online PDF has destroyed my community, and maybe mine is the only one suffering from this but I doubt it. If it's not then they are losing money due to the neglect and delay not making money by releasing it as a book. And maybe the free PDF will be wonderful, but the description given to us in the announcement forum sounds anything but promising. The veil of secrecy they insist on creating as well as the lack of communication are a large problem. Granted my experience is completely anecdotal I don't have sales numbers and maybe they are experiencing actual growth rather than just a bump in numbers with rising powers being released. But anyway. My group is all but dead and this will probably kill it. None of us will purchase that book and most of us are very unlikely to ever purchase a wyrd miniature again.

Their update consisted of making an announcement that they are going to sell a new supplement book containing the rules, errata and FAQ. Go to the announcement section to take a look, or follow the link. They will also be giving out a free PDF, which will have 'much less content' they hint it will include just the core rules and nothing from rising powers. Many fans seem happy with it, and I'm sure the new art will be amazing as always. But it seems they just want us to pay them to make up for their mistakes. After having purchased Rising Powers its unfortunate that they want me to buy another book to get a copy of the rules that aren't filled with design or editing errors. My area has almost completely died half way through its growth spurt due to the problems so far and the length of time it has taken them to fix it. This will likely kill it completely.

Appreciate it. Thank you for the update. Don't need to give us a date in situations like that, but an update on what you are working on and why it is talking long or what the goal is would give us information without setting a date you can't meet.

The intent of scouring the rulebook is to learn the game and become good at it. An unintended effect (and not a bad one) is finding things like Hamelin's infinite combo. 'Trying Hard' and attempting to be the best at things one partakes in are generally considered admirable qualities. That they are looked down upon by some people in the context of gaming still baffles me. But yes you indirectly called me a douche bag, and you did it without any understanding of my position on the matter, you lack empathy and critical thought sir and maybe you should try to listen to what other people are saying before judging so harshly. I do not greatly enjoy painting but I don't call people assholes because they do and are better at it than I am. I very much appreciated a well painted army, but not to get the same respect because for knowing the rules and being good at the game is an amazing double standard. Yup. Something I've already mentioned in this thread. Please threads something before you comment in it. Otherwise we just end up rehashing old things every time someone enters the thread. While I'm a bit frustrated, its certainly no where close to 'rage'. And writing it off frustration of a fan/player/consumer simply because of the topic in question is nerdy doesn't make the frustration less legitimate. He was calling me a douche-bag, and he was doing it from a place of extreme ignorance. I didn't use him calling me a douche-bag to suggest that his arguments were invalid, so it certainly wasn't a strawman to bring it up. But again, the cause of my frustration and various others around here is the lack of communication. Especially for the duration in which there has been no communication. That on top of a having purchased a product that the expected quality (the rulebook not the models) it makes people feel neglected and used. The people here requesting more information from Wyrd are doing so because they enjoy the game, they want to see it continue and are trying to offer assistance by either expressing ways to fix it or talking about their feelings relating to the problem. They/we want to see action being taken and feel like Wyrd cares about its fans, because we care about Wyrd. I don't know what your role is a Wyrd nor really have I claimed to. I did suggest how Wyrd might improve their interactions with the community and you post with much greater frequency than other Wyrd employees, or at least do in the areas of the forum I frequent. So suggesting that you are a 'face of Wyrd' seems a legitimate claim. But as rajcze mentioned, the request was for information so that we can become informed.

Out of curiosity have you thread this entire thread? Because it doesn't seem like you aware of the complaints at all. Wonderful job picking one example where reasonable people certainly can agree. One that has been mentioned more as a observation of the mistake rather then a actual thing people would try. Like the Hamelin infinite combo. Now how about you look at all the the reasonable concerns that have been brought up? How about firing into combat? How about adding that The Stolen are not unique to an official easy to find area for people that don't frequent the forums or spend a significant portion of their forum time reading through the rules area? Or the large number of other examples that have been brought up that are legitimate and reasonable concerns. Also rather you didn't call me a douche bag simply because I want a game that functions without me having to make up rules, and then re-make them up when I play against new opponents or go to a new local store to play. Have you really never had a problem entering a new environment and being frustrated or frustrating other people because an aspect of the game functioned differently then one of you thought? Especially when you show up to a tournament to find out they play differently then you because the rule is to ambiguous and they made up their own as well? Or does wanting to seek out new players at different locations by default make me a Douche Bag? This is certainly not the end of the world, but also very frustrating and realistically it is something I've seen many people get very worked up over. But hey, I get it anyone that doesn't enjoy the same things you do much be a total asshole. No one has asked for that. To ignore out actual posts and make up an extreme example of what were are sort of kind of saying is actually a fallacy, unlike whatever you want to make up in your mind that we are saying. It's called a Red Herring. No one suggested you repackage the stock, generally the complaint about the V2 Cards has been about the lack of communication. V2 cards arriving in stores caught some people by surprise as they assumed there would be announcement, likely in the area specifically put aside for announcements, stating that you had started to ship the V2 cards. Additionally I'd imagine many of us would of appreciated a list of which models are getting V2 cards, just some of them or all of them? If just some, which ones? In the absence of this communication the community did create a thread to try and solve this dilemma, but that doesn't mean Wyrd couldn't of handled it better. Or even posted in that thread when it came about stating which models were getting new cards. The public V2 cards will be greatly appreciated, but it would also of been greatly appreciated to be a bit more aware of whats going on within Wyrd. Taking the hour or two to make those announcements put them in the place you have designated for announcements is hardly any work at all and would of appeased the people on this forum greatly and probably made you a good chunk of money for a measly couple hours of work. Obviously its not your job to make search for people, but you are a large part of the face of Wyrd on this forum. Maybe linking the announcements would of been useful to not only Csonti but the readers of the thread as well. It would also go a good way to establishing the better rapport between Wyrd and its fans that the fans have obviously been seeking.

Which is why I said just a fan. I'm certainly a fan of their product, but writing people off as incapable because they are a fan of the product is logical fallacy. Not one that I disagreed with, nor did I claim I was capable of producing such an errata; so we can stop with the straw-men and other fallacies. Do you play online games that update their content? Do you read their change logs? One current example is League of Legends. They update their game about every other week, releasing a new change log each time. They dev's are also pretty active on their forums. Granted Riot has a ton of other problems with their game but they do this well. As for non-video games, how about D&D, Legend of the Five Rings, Magic the Gathering? Many of these games have moved away from the need for such frequent FAQ's largely due to the initial quality of the product being better written then Malifaux has been. But back in the day most of them were doing something very similar. The most prominent in my memory is L5R when about a decade ago would send me answers to weekly questions in my email. But it's this is also irrelevant, it would take about 3-5 hours a week to keep this document/thread updated with recent questions and their answers, easily doable and the benefit to the community would be great.

I didn't make a comment on what they care about, I made a comment about how it makes the consumers feel. I'm sure they do care, and I'm sure they are working hard. But they don't seem to be making the consumers feel happy nor comfortable with what is going on. And working hard is only useful if you know how to work toward the right thing efficiently. Working hard but not having a good result is often a problem in business, and thus why I suggested they hire someone with experience or know how in the fields they are lacking. "It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." They are very skilled at what they do well, I'm just suggesting the seek help in aspects they don't do well. Comparative Advantage is reality. I suggested hiring someone to do the job, yes that would cost money, but not a lot and the result would likely be greater revenue in the long run. Your very unlikely to get an experienced individual to volunteer their time in their field of work on a for-profit project. Agreed that perfection is unattainable. But you make a mistake is assuming that Ratty, myself or various other people in this community are just 'fans' instead it might be wise to assume that some of us have worked with games, rules, programming or law for quite some time and are thus probably skilled in this area. My experiences have been with games, psychology and education. I don't have experience in programming nor law, but someone with experience in those areas can sympathize with and understand a lot of the problems game designers face even if they are just a 'fan.'

The time they are taking is inexcusable, and would put just about just about any other type of game under already. The rules of either book don't meet anyones standard of quality assurance, book two's editing is worse then any GW product ever released. So making that argument that the errata isn't out because they care about the quality of the rules nearly an insult considering how little effort (or maybe it was significant mistakes in printing) was put forth on the actual release. Within a week or two I could of done it all alone, as it seems so could of Ratty and probably various other people on this forum, not to mention if we had all of us together working on it. They need to be talking to us, they probably should of hired for a new position to have deal with this for them or replaced the person that was supposed to be doing this. There are a number of people on this forum that could could certainly be doing it as a part time job remotely. When you have your consumers fixing many of your problems for their local groups within a faction of the time it takes the company there is a problem, and it is incredibly hard to swallow that the company filled with individuals paid to do this should be taking longer than the players who are doing it in their free hobby time. Additionally there should a section of this forum that a a growing FAQ, a weekly compiling of questions asked and their answers, in general an easy to use living rules compendium online for new and old players to refer to. Plus a notification to players on what they are examining for errata or balance changes. That these havn't been done shows they have little experience in this matter and their delay in communicating is being understood to mean by consumers that they are either not listening or don't care. I've know various people who have stopped playing due to this problem and various more who are having trouble recruiting new players. At some point, the 'we are trying to make it perfect' argument stops working, and in this case it was nearly a month ago. Which was a full two months after the release of the book itself. If it takes this long to make it a quality errata they need to bring in someone to help them before they start losing even more business.

The manufacturing of the book is exceptional, as people have already attested to. As for the content well that varies. The layout of the book is wonderful at first sight, separating the rules by story. A great pace of the book the first time reading through it. However as you start to play and need to reference the rules (which you will have to do a lot) it becomes quite annoying having to flip through sections to find where the correct rules are. I suggest either adding sticky tabs or memorizing the pages. The story is pretty decent, the world a fun fresh take on our own various mythology and stories. The game pieces are generally well balanced, only about 1/4 of them will never see the table competitively which is a very high rate in miniature gaming. Their abilities are pretty unique and innovative. However, I'm a miniature gaming veteran and have played this game for a little over a year now and I still spend about as much time playing as I do looking up rules while playing. They are pretty poorly written and organized. Not having a index really hurts starting out. Various rules general and model specific simply don't function as written and others, especially in book two, are flat out wrong. But if your gaming group doesn't care about official rules and are fine just house ruling things as you go; then this won't be much of a problem. If your group is more competitive and/or very adamant about official rulings this could create a large problem though. In theory a errata is coming out soon...but they people who know aren't sharing so...

Well, lots of problems present themselves from this statement, but I'll just harp on this one. You are discussing game balance things as well, and you should be. But the largest problem it would seem many of us are encountering right now is a clarity issue not a balance one. There is probably a discussion on Double Take's power as worded and while it would be nice for you guys to look at that, more importantly you need to focus on parts of the game that are simply non-functioning. You need to organize all the threads dealing with all of the problems in book 2 and make them easy to access. This includes base sizes, triggers wrongly relating to weapons, wrong traits (like unique) and various other significant problems with the actual rules, editing and game pieces. If a video game was as buggy as this one, it wouldn't function as designed in significant areas. And good video game companies do give patch notes on changes. In both instances working on a video game is significantly easier for the designer. First because if a bug is so significant that it prevents things from working as designed or crashes the game its much easier to find. Second video games have the luxury of forcing the knowledge of changes on their customers/players. While it is much more difficult educate players on changes on a table top game. And as Wyrd has it set up right now you pretty much have to spend daily time in the rules section to be playing the game correctly. Then when you are aware of the changes and your opponent is not, there is not a easy document to refer to. You have to remember a thread name or a easily searchable reference in the thread plus a computer and internet to discuss changes in the rules properly. And finally if a video game had fairly important aspects of its gameplay that were no functional or were obviously not functioning as intended and left them unfixed for much more then a week its publishers are going to encounter a lot more grief and financial loss then Wyrd has experienced so far (at least in former case, I don't know how they are doing financially and how these problems are affecting that).

I don't think you understand what competitive means. Some of the games I've had the most fun playing are when I lose. Competitive players enjoy playing to the best of their ability and seek constant improvement, and there is no better way to notice an area to improve on then when you lose. Sure they are people that are very poor losers but being a poor loser != a competitive player.

This comes up all the time... Playing the win is not immoral, its not abusing anything and there is nothing wrong with it. While I agree that it is unfortunate that Wyrd decided that it should be more powerful to slaughter your own guys on the first turn in a couple different crews your casting the blame on the wrong party when you see players who are taking advantage of that design choice.