n0signal Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Over the past 6 months my focus in tabletop gaming really has shifted away from army-level wargames (think lots of models on each side and simplified system to run that many models in volume - Warhammer and Warmachine) and gravitated towards skirmish-level games such as Malifaux and Infinity. I've noticed a lot of people on this forum and on other forums have had the same shift in focus; I also notice that a lot of miniatures companies now are starting to get in on the act and produce skirmish games - I believe that Enigma and Freebooter have skirmish games in the works, and the MERCS game is due some playtesting. Do people think that there is a shift recently towards true skirmish games (I know Warmachine can for instance be played in a small "mangled metal" scale but it doesn't feel like a skirmish game)? Perhaps due to the world-wide recession? Increase in metal/transport prices? etc. Seems like an interesting point of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetang22 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 It does seem like lots of skirmish games have been popping up, but for the last few years instead of months. I would say a lot of factors are going into it, economy being a big one. My personal feelings on it though...why pay for 20 models for a unit in Warhammer when they essentially do nothing more than an individual mini would in a game like Malifaux??? You don't get 20 individual models that all do something unique...they are just there to represent more wounds for the unit most of the time, and to give the appearance of a BIG army...that's it... Now look at a skirmish game like Malifaux. You only have to pay for and paint 1 model instead of that unit of 20, so its more affordable and way more timely. As mentioned, the single model offers virtually the same amount of play experience as that unit of 20, so why bother with paying for and prepping/maintaining a whole unit? The problem with big army games in my opinion is that they just don't offer good enough reasons to justify having to buy and paint a ridiculous amount of models just to make up 1 group/army. The only real benefits in my mind are if you like the visual appeal of having a big army. Otherwise, they are more expensive and difficult to maintain and transport. Skirmish games are just too convenient in most comparable respects, and offer just as good of a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maple Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I have been a long time "skirmish" game player. I never really got into the large "army" sized games (save for some dabbling in micro-armor, a few games of 40k and 1 or 2 games of Warmachine). I think the reason that skirmish games have gotten a lot of attention lately is because there are more and more high-quality skirmish games being produced. Malifaux and Pulp City are two games that come to mind. They both have well written rules and good looking minis to boot. On the horizon there are several other games due out that will continue this trend (MERCS and Bounty come to mind). I think there is some burn-out with large army based games. Army games tend to have a power creep, making what ever the newest army (or codex) the most powerful. This encourages tournament players to spend more money, in hopes of winning the next tourney. Whereas skirmish games release new characters/ minis to encourage adding new "flavor" to your warband. IMO, skirmish games are, and have always been, the better gaming style. You can get into a game for a low cost (usually $100, or less, gets you a rulebook and 10 or so minis) and be playing relatively quickly. After the initial investment, you only need to buy 1 or 2 minis a month, if you so choose, to continue building your army. I think this is better than dropping $600 to build a competative army... only to scopp 10 minis that you spent 50 hours painting, after the first turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I think the recession might be part of it but I also think its an aging player base. It was a lot easier 10 years ago for me to drop a few hundred dollars on an Army and paint it all up. I had a lot more time and a lot more disposable income. 10 years later I got a 60 hour a week job, a mortgage and a family that takes up most of my free time. Hard to paint 100 Orcs with all that going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vezinas Ghost Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I think it is barrier of entry as well. Look at what it takes to buy a 40k "Battle Force" it;'s about $90 for 30 models and 1,000 points. Now look at at the Malifaux Bos Sets, $30 for about 5 models, and can play 25 points. It is so much easier to pick up and casually enjoy a game like Malifaux. 40k takes WORK to be able to enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 For me it is a greater feeling of intimacy. Instead of a faceless trooper swarm, I have characters with a bit more personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Weird, you're a faceless swarm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Weird, you're a faceless swarm. Blurry photos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 For me it is a greater feeling of intimacy. Instead of a faceless trooper swarm, I have characters with a bit more personality. Blurry photos... Maybe. I still prefer a bit more personality.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maple Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 For me it is a greater feeling of intimacy. Instead of a faceless trooper swarm, I have characters with a bit more personality. I agree. Having 5-10 unique characters on the board, versus 50 faceless grunts is a lot more fun. I can easily justify spending an extra few hours painting each guy when there are a handful of them that all look different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Maybe. I still prefer a bit more personality.... Well, if you wouldn't be a skinflint and shell out for a real dinner and not fast food... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 See! That's exactly my point! Always blaming me. Blame, blame, blame. I'd shell out for better dinners if you weren't so cold hearted afterwards. If you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vezinas Ghost Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I will say this, I enjoy 40k. I have 2,000 points for Chaos Space Marines in a Nurgle Deathguard theme. When they are all on the table, they are a wicked sight to see. A fully paiting army is a beautiful thing, but man is it a lot of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathjester Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 "Enigma and Freebooter have skirmish games in the works, and the MERCS game is due some playtesting." can somebody please tell me who is supposed to be doing the MERCS game as can find no information on the web. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0signal Posted January 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 can somebody please tell me who is supposed to be doing the MERCS game as can find no information on the web. http://www.mercsminis.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I agree. Having 5-10 unique characters on the board, versus 50 faceless grunts is a lot more fun. I can easily justify spending an extra few hours painting each guy when there are a handful of them that all look different. Exactly the same for me.. While I hated (hm.. maybe not that extreme, but at least disliked) it to paint the same mini over and over again to just finish 1 unit (and then have to paint a hell of a lot more), I really like to paint the few models needed for a skirmish game. Heck, I really love painting the malifaux mini's,, and right now I'm painting every day instead of... Once a month? x] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I will say this, I enjoy 40k. I have 2,000 points for Chaos Space Marines in a Nurgle Deathguard theme. When they are all on the table, they are a wicked sight to see. A fully paiting army is a beautiful thing, but man is it a lot of work. Oh, I agree completely. I got started with Warhammer back in the day (3rd edition), and moved on through the ages with other mass combat games. And having a fully painted army on the table is indeed a glorious sight to behold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerousBeans Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Definitely, it's probably got a lot to do with the recession but also because GW has pretty much nailed that market. There's little point in spending a mint on an army if only two people you know play it. Skirmish games not only allow greater depth of rules but you also don't feel so bad about spending £20-£50 on a force that'll you might rarely use. Malifaux's a great example actually, people like that you can spend around £30 - £35 and have a perfectly viable force that is also competitive. You'll get more milage from £35 worth of Malifaux stuff than £35 worth of GW stuff in terms of painting and gaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vezinas Ghost Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 You'll get more milage from £35 worth of Malifaux stuff than £35 worth of GW stuff in terms of painting and gaming. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafNala Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 It's ALL TSR's FAULT! I was once an average, maladjusted young historical gamer...until AD&D took over my life. Painting ALL those Villains & Heros for SO MANY years made all the nameless warriors of proper war games lose their appeal for moi [although I do have about 2,500 points of Goblins JUST is case]. Painting up War Bands for Mordeim or Necromunda or Malifaux is SO MUCH more satisfying/fun. :guns: BTW from my jaded perspective a proper army sized war game requires a minimum of 500 to 1,000 minis. :squint: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmp_mydog Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I think that skirmish games are more popular due a variety of reasons. The first and foremost is that good rulesets have emerged. There have been many games in the past that don't catch on because the rules are clunky or just plain bad. Second the affordability of skirmish games allow you to experiment and find what faction fits you best. Nothing is worse then shelling out a couple hundred dollars to find that the army you've chosen might look cool but you can't win a game to save your life. Only being able to get half or less reselling or trading that stinker of an army is a bummer. Third and most importantly in my opinion is the time investment. Modeling and painting several hundred guys takes so much time that most players never finish their armies before rules change and half of what you spent so much time painting is not longer usable or relevant. Also the amount of time it takes to actually play a game is a huge factor with my play group. To play a multiplayer 40K game will take several hours, and for warmachine it takes even longer due to the nature of the system. With a true skirmish game even with 4-6 players we can wrap it up in less than 2 1/2 hours. For a regular 2-player game I can get 2-4 games in during our regular sessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joona Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Overall it seems that games other than Warhammer are finally reaching people who have never even seen any other (better) miniature games. Probably the biggest problem for smaller companies making skirmish games is keeping the sales up for longer periods of time. Hopefully this doesn't lead to more and more powerful expansions and larger game sizes. Most likely the good ones will still stick along. What I really like about skirmish games is the small amount of miniatures needed. I just can't find the time to paint a couple of hundred minis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graysen Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 An agruement that Skirmish games are becoming more popular because of the recession isn't backed up by GW's latest quarterly profit report. However with low model count games it is easier on the wallet to get to a playable level I do wonder whether some of the "shift" is to do with time, the time taken to prepare and paint plus the actual time to play the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetang22 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Its already been mentioned, but money just goes a LOT farther in skirmish games. If I want to spend $100 on gaming materials, I'm going to regardless of playing Warhammer or Malifaux. Its just with that $100 I can either buy less than 1 full army for Warhammer, or I can buy 3 different crews for Malifaux. My $100 is going to give me a wider variety of experience with Malifaux. I can play a Resurrectionist crew, then an Arcanist crew, then an Outcast crew with my $100. With my 100 Warhammer dollars, I can field 1 partial army. Thanks, but I'll take the better bang for the buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ork56 Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Oh, I agree completely. I got started with Warhammer back in the day (3rd edition), and moved on through the ages with other mass combat games. And having a fully painted army on the table is indeed a glorious sight to behold. true, but when the other guy you are playing has only just broken open some blisters and blu-tacked them to bases, you begin to wonder why you bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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