Genre Discussion

[EricJ]

So I was wondering why Malifaux keeps getting described as a weird-west genre, and the endless comparisons to Deadlands...so I though I'd go through our masters to see really if we were more western themed than anything else. I figure the 4 building blocks of our hybrid genre are:

Steampunk

Western

Victorian

Horror

Feel free to correct if I've assigned the wrong genre to a master

Lady Justice - Western

Sonnia - Western

Perdita - Western

Seamus - Horror, Victorian

Nicodem - Horror

McMourning - Horror

Ramos - Steampunk

Rasputina - ??

Marcus - ??

Lilith - Horror

Pandora - Horror

Zoraida - Horror

Leveticus - Steampunk, Horror

Viktoria - ??

Som'er Teeth - Horror?

This is just a quick look at it of course. But other than the guild, which is heavily influenced by western (for now), there isn't much of it really... Do you think the Guild get more attention and therefor define Malifaux a bit more heavily as western, than say Horror (which shows up far more)?

Just curious really. All through development I think we never really thought about focusing on horror any more than any other genre (and perhaps even less due to the comparisons). Thoughts? Perceptions?

[Timberhick]

I think the problem comes from the separation of Western and Victorian.

Most of us have seen numerous 'western movies' and the females usually are wearing Victorian styled clothing(especially the city folk and really especially the..um..bar gals..yeah:dance:)

Gremlins done in a hillbilly style. Most of the Outcasts done in a more Western Theme(black and white striped cloths, early forms of gun scopes, etc.)

Not much in steampunk has been showcased

Makes for reasonable Deadlands comparisons

Deadlands was very much a Western, Steampunk, Horror type game

[Cacuin]

I think western is kind of a strong pull in our culture right now. I mean most of us grew up watching one western or another. Then add in the amount of texas holden is in the eye of the public right now and you get even more edge leaning that way. The last major thing is look at one of the most cult tv shows in the last few years. Firefly.

So there is a strong tie in for western to most knee jerk. The horror aspect is kinda hard to feel right at the momment since it is not an overt splatter punk or torture porn that seems to make up most modern horror right now.

The steam punk aspect of this game is kinda hard to see since only one master seems to focus on it. The other one listed as it isn't really shown.

Thats just my two cents.

[blkdymnd]

I agree, Victorian and Western kind of go hand in hand. The rotten belles were completely western when I first saw them (to me) as they are the style of lady you would have seen in a saloon back then, and the gremlins have a western feel to them as well, hillbilly western but still a bit western. Also I do think Guild feel like the main focused faction in the fluff (as they are trying to keep the peace/control everything) and so their style kind of goes to the forefront.

All in all, I don't think it's a bad thing to be tagged as any of those and everyone will have a different feel depending on the faction they choose I think. I never knew anyone who played Deadlands, but I knew about it pretty much, and I don't think this game compares as much because you have so much more going on and the system is so solid.

I would like to hear from the international crowd and get their take on it. We all grew up on John Wayne movies and such, so get a western feel right off. I don't know how the international crowd perceives America's Old West era, so it would be cool to see what their first impression of the game was

Edited August 1, 2009 by blkdymnd

[DangerousBeans]

To be honest, I never really connected the Western aspect to Malifaux save for the Guild. I've never really been into Westerns though (aside from Firefly, but that isn't exactly classic western). It was the horror aspect that drew me to the game and I still feel that were you to lump Malifaux into a genre it would be Horror. You've got your outright monsters in there, a classic witch, Gremlins (family friendly horror but still horror), creepy women, creepier kids, demons, frankenstein's monster inspired oddities and zombies. The Victorian/Gothic elements add to this as well. It's a pretty good mix though, the Guild and some of the arcanists help this game straddle genres as opposed to obviously fitting into one.

[Isoulle]

It's probably the guild. The Guild got most of their models earlier than everyone else and they are very western. And as others have mentioned the rotten belles can also be seen as western and they are a well known model.

Also the lack of fiction right now contributes to that. It's hard to get an overall feel with so little and I believe the first fiction has the Ortegas and gun fighting which is very western. Victorian stories are usually long wordy horror/drama/social commentary pieces and there hasn't been that yet in the fiction. We'll see as things develop.

I'm sure as people see more they'll think it's less western.

EDIT:

Also, theme wise.

Rasputina - Fantasy

Marcus - Fantasy

Viktoria - Steampunk/Fantasy (the one with a gun looks very steampunk, the other fantasy)

Som'er Teeth - Slaptick from the way he looks. Wait til I see fiction.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Isoulle

[TheLemondropDan]

Marcus always struck me as being a little native american-y. That sort of fits the western theme, too. I think in later expansions we might want to play up the steampunk and bacon themes.

[Angus Khan]

To me, Malifaux is very much a steampunk/Victorian game. (with fantasy/horror elements thrown in for good measure) I love steampunk, and that is what first drew me into Malifaux. (Well, that and the cool card mechanics)

The "weird west" portion I can understand, since Malifaux (the world, not the game) is a new frontier just as the American West was. Since Victorian and the American West can easily go hand in hand, it is believable for "weird west" to spring to people's minds when they hear about Malifaux.

Malifaux is a giant collage, however, and is in its own category all to itself:

Steamvictoriohorrorwestpunk!

Edited August 1, 2009 by Angus Khan

[nilus]

I think part of the Deadlands comparisson also comes from the use of cards in the game. Which classic Deadlands did as well(although there were dice there too).

You also have to remember that although Deadlands was a Wierd Western game, it was also a horror game. It also had some Victorian steampunk aspects as well.

Once Malifaux becomes more mature and people really realize all the different models surronding it I think it will distance itself more from its Western label.

And at the end of the day, there are lot worse games you guys could be compared to, I love Deadlands

[nilus]

I think in later expansions we might want to play up the steampunk and bacon themes.

I think we figured it out, Malifaux is BaconPunk

[TheLemondropDan]

I think we figured it out, Malifaux is BaconPunk

Quoted 'cause I'm down.

[Angus Khan]

I think we figured it out, Malifaux is BaconPunk

Everything is better with BACON!

[EricJ]

Lol, I wasn't complaining, mostly wondering, as I knew very little about deadlands before working on Malifaux (still don't know much except what Wikipedia told me, lol). Also I think I've been thinking a lot about Steampunk the last couple weeks as I brainstorm for the next expansion...we need to see who builds the Peacekeepers after all.

[Angus Khan]

Lol, I wasn't complaining, mostly wondering, as I knew very little about deadlands before working on Malifaux (still don't know much except what Wikipedia told me, lol). Also I think I've been thinking a lot about Steampunk the last couple weeks as I brainstorm for the next expansion...we need to see who builds the Peacekeepers after all.

Ooo! I like me some steampunk! Can't wait for that expansion!

[Nathan Caroland]

To be honest, our first game table probably didn't help matters much as that is very visually Wierd West. Which is good, but is only one aspect of the overall genre we've blended together.

What I always smile about is when I describe the genre, tell them we took the styles and bits we liked from a bit of everything and folks go 'no way that works', only to hear later, 'hey, that works .. somehow .. '.

[goblyn13]

I think part of it is that Victorian England and the wild west overlapped pretty well, and that lent alot to the melding of steampunk with the west creating a "Wierd West."

As for the models, the guild has a very Western feel to them, with two of the three masters being heavily influenced by the west and the third (sonnia) does have a more victorian lena with clockwork arms.

Also I agree with what was said earlier that Marcus and his crew and Injun Joss, lend to the native american theme.

Rasputina, is probably the one master with the most fantasy type push although the fluff and her abilities really bring her over to the horror aspect.

the Gremlins with the expansion into pigs and stuff brought about another push on the western aspect.

[nerdelemental]

Iso has it on some of the "missing" genre with Fantasy, but after agreeing, I'm going to put up a small shift to "legendary" as "fantasy" connotes high fantasy and I think there's more Baba Yaga true fantasy.

Rasputina is estremely steampunk if you ask me.

Carrying Clockwork pistols is sure steampunk, too and the over-the-topness of the Viktorias blends some modern anime with the Victorian.

In studying the shift of the genre form in my lit classes a big part of the recent analysis is in the purposeful blending of dynamically different genres to tell the story. Easy to see in Wild Wild West, but is strongly present in movies like The Matrix, too. Look at Sci-Fi like Firefly, adopting quite a lot of Western imagery with their very futuristic imagery.

Agreed on Victorian = West, just different places of the same thing. Actually, Steampunk is the same time period, too. These are just sub-classifications to the same time period, different locales. Additionally, the origins of what we classify as horror come from this very same time period where we received Frankenstein (1830's), Dracula (1890's), and the Picture of Dorian Gray (um....1890's if I remembered correctly) among others. The Viktorian interests sprang forth the Romantic period which is a push for emotion dominating logic - there's what I think the true genre of Malifaux is: Romantic Fantasy.

However, the word "romantic" has lost virtually all of its original meaning and is now just used to describe men trying to get down a woman's pants and her misunderstanding it to mean the guy wants to be with her forever ( ). Kidding. Real romantic lit is very dark and brooding and that led to the gothic which might also be Malifeaux's true genre. That's also not really what we think of as gothic today. The idea of gothic is that the beast is not an external thing hunting the innocent, but is a monster lurking inside each of us trying to get out and we must struggle to contain it.

That's what you get for dropping the word "genre" when a lit teacher is lurking and has been itching to get back in the classroom.

(ps: this is the shortened version - I just deleted like three times the amount than what I'm posting! )

[nerdelemental]

Okay. I can't help it. Here's more of my thoughts:

Since we're seeing a very identifiable and trackable phenomenon in our culture of blending the genres, there's not need to worry about what this genre is. It's simply good that you're doing it. The comparisons to Deadlands is probably a tip of the hat rather than a wag of the finger. I haven't played it, but Wikipedia (the answer to every question!) makes it look like they were among the first to hit upon the genre blending in the mid-90's - exactly when our culture began pushing for it in literature and film (consider Harry Potter among others doing the same thing at that time) and even broadway. As they tout "a blending of Western, Horror, and Steampunk" I'd be surprised if you'll be able to shake any comparrisons. I'm doubtful that the gameplay, or even the true imagery of the game will be the same, but when you say "Hey! Malifeaux is new and it's a blend of Western, Horror, Steampunk, and Victorian" several of us think "Okay, Victorian's not terribly different, but okay". It's all good.

And we aren't role playing. We're kicking ass. And we love kicking ass in the wild west. Now our wild west is in a whole other planet, maybe in a whole other dimension.

[TheLemondropDan]

There are worse things than to be drawing from the same creative space as Deadlands did. That creative space is awesome, and has lots of room to play in.

If you guys do well, you should totally get in contact with the Savage world/deadlands guys to whip up an RPG. I think it'd fit pretty well, from what I've seen of the fluff.

[Isoulle]

Iso has it on some of the "missing" genre with Fantasy, but after agreeing, I'm going to put up a small shift to "legendary" as "fantasy" connotes high fantasy and I think there's more Baba Yaga true fantasy.

Fantasy connotes high fantasy? That's a new thing since High fantasy is really popular right (And I mean REALLY high fantasy. Like ultra-high fantasy). I'm big on low fantasy and it is what I think of when I think Fantasy (Game of Thrones, Conan).

[Raf]

My point of view as an international customer:

I will not generalize to much for other Europeans coming here but here is what I think:

- Malifaux is set in the late nineteenth century, so for europeans the image that we have of America at this time is Western. Yes, of course the streets of Boston or New York at this time had nothing to do with a Wild Wild West series or movie, but that's the first thing that comes in mind. Victorian or Gaslight period is a term more used to described London (again it's my opinion, others could disagree).

- Nathan: I have to agree, the table at Gencon was definitely Weird West and, as well as the first minis released, and certainly explain the overall "weird west" that people have of Maliafux.

- Eric: For me the beastmasters have a native american feel. Not Marcus so much, but definitely Myranda. The gremlins are definitely Weird West. Come on, a banjo, western hats and a shotgun ?

- I have played and read Deadlands in the past and it is really close to Mailfaux:

A mix of Steampunk, Horror, Western (that means Victorian) game.

This topic is definitely of important for me, as I would really like to know more about the look of Malifaux, and what makes it different from Deadlands.

So here is what I think:

- New buildings would be made of wood, with a western look to it

- Older buildings would be made of stone (sleepy Hollow style), having been made a century earlier.

- Then older structures predating humans arrival :no idea of the look of them.

- Steampunk elements with lighting in the streets and occasoional strange mecanisms.

Again, that was my 2 cents, you could disagree.

[Gargathor]

Nathan's dead-on Re: the table at GenCon. The grey, weather beaten wood had a western feel. "Mining", be it for gold or soulstones also says "western" to me.

Ortega is a Latino name, so there's another southwest element. And the costumes worn by Seamus and the belles would fit right in at the Gem Saloon in Deadwood (although that's Black Hills 'West' as opposed to 'southwest' west).

Certainly, there's no denying the horror elements.

I love all the elements of the Malifaux background/flavor/story so far. It's more than half the reason I get into and stay with a game.

[nerdelemental]

Fantasy connotes high fantasy?

Yes.

It's a crazy small element to debate, and totally not worth it because it needs to be discussed in context. Film, literature, live games, video games, all bring different imagery and expectations to fulfill the genre. In course discussion, I can reference "fantasy" and we can all have a discussion. If you want to talk about the low fantasy imagery you tend to have to qualify that in the discussion. In the context of this game, Eric's set certain labels of genre and no matter what sub-genre of fantasy you're bringing to the table, Malifaux doesn't strike me as having a lot of the typical fantasy gaming elements. However, it does seem to have many of the true fantasy elements from the origins of the genre. Grimm's Aschenputtel (Cinderella), Little Red Hood, Repunzel and others from, interestingly, the mid-1800's, seem much more akin to the fantasy of Malifaux. But these are collections of folk-tales with added hyperbole to begin the genre of fantasy. So, I say, "not exactly fantasy - more legendary" as in "from folk-tales".

In the end, it looks like quite a lot of the genre imagery for the game comes from mid to late 1800's from around our world.

When we want to discuss genre in the context of the game, every one of us will have different notions about what that genre looks like. Ramos, for example, tends to have everyone agree that he's steampunk. I don't see very much steampunk about him at all. He uses so much electricity and the look of his spiders are way too high tech to look steampunky to me. But I'm not up in arms about it trying to sway everyone's opinion against him representing steampunk.

[TheLemondropDan]

I would love to see the "folklore" aspect played up in future expansions. The Neverborn already have a good nightmare flavor, and Zoraida is definitely folklorish. Lessie: Neverborn could add in a fey-ish subfaction (malevolent faeries?) Resurectionists could add a vampiric-style guy (suave, to fit in with serial killer/grim/mad science) Guild-- I'm not 100% sure here. Jack, the giant-killer? the boy who cried wolf? Little Red Riding hood grown up? Outcasts could play up the hamelin pied piper thing. Arcanists could do something with a old fashioned jewish golem thing : words inside a clay body that gives life to the body is awesome.

Other random ideas could include some sort of weather controlling master (native american?) India is a goldmine for great ideas, too. Shiva is disticitve and really awesome: that could work. I also think "slave magic" or an even more voodoo-centric master would be great. Baron Samedi, Papa Legba, Voodoo zombi, etc. There is an enormous amount of area to mine here, and It could be fun as all get out. Finally, there is also the whole chinese railroad worker thing to play off of, too.

Wow, this got a little rambly. I'm just a little excited.

[Angus Khan]

I like the idea of a Chinese influence in Malifaux... I think that idea was even tossed around in playtesting...