Mindless Zombie Trick

[DeadManTalking]

• Load up a mindless zombie with poison 3
• Kill the zombie
• It drops a marker for horrendous corpse
• It drops a marker for dying
• Recyle Reduce Reuse lets you slap the model back on the table (check with your TO that your meta plays it this way).
• Mindless zombie is at 0 health so dies again.
• Drops a marker for horrendous corpse
• Drops a marker for dying.
• RRR draws a card.

So is this actually a thing? I understand the idea behind it, but it feels like a major stretch and not rules as intended. If it is though it's a trick I'll have to learn for McMourning2

[Maniacal_cackle]

The last two posts said opposite things, which goes back to my initial advice:

Make sure to clarify with your local TO(s).

You will get all sorts of arguments in all sorts of directions about every nuance of these abilities xD

[Adran]

It seems unintended, but there is only 1 rules hole I can see. 

I can't see any reason why the second horrendous corpse happens. The "killed" effect on the zombie has not been removed, so whilst you may go through the  " I have a killed model on the table" steps a second time to remove it again,  you never "killed" it a second time. 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, DeadManTalking said:

• Load up a mindless zombie with poison 3
• Kill the zombie
• It drops a marker for horrendous corpse
• It drops a marker for dying
• Recyle Reduce Reuse lets you slap the model back on the table (check with your TO that your meta plays it this way).

For the record, if you're not sure why MM's account has the words "check with your TO that your meta plays this way"...

The next four steps in the sequence (or whatever other variation of madness people would like to claim happens) are the answer to "Why do people claim that applying Recycle/Reduce/Reuse to a killed Mindless Zombie is an obvious play testing oversight, and not allow it?"  

1 hour ago, DeadManTalking said:

• Mindless zombie is at 0 health so dies again.
• Drops a marker for horrendous corpse
• Drops a marker for dying.
• RRR draws a card.

See also the arguments which had to be resolved by FAQ concerning using the word "Drop" in reference to existing markers (see "Four Winds Punch v. Enemy Markers"), for the arguments concerning friendly/enemy at the end of the ability.  

Because it would be equally plausible for someone to claim that the sequence actually goes like this:

• Load up a mindless zombie with poison 3
• Kill the zombie
• It drops a marker for horrendous corpse
• It drops a marker for dying
• Recyle Reduce Reuse DROPS a newly created Mindless Zombie on the table.

since the FAQ for "Four Winds Punch v. Enemy Markers" only actually applies to Four Winds Punch.  👻

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

For the record, if you're not sure why MM's account has the words "check with your TO that your meta plays this way"...

The next four steps in the sequence (or whatever other variation of madness people would like to claim happens) are the answer to "Why do people claim that applying Recycle/Reduce/Reuse to a killed Mindless Zombie is an obvious play testing oversight, and not allow it?"  

See also the arguments which had to be resolved by FAQ concerning using the word "Drop" in reference to existing markers (see "Four Winds Punch v. Enemy Markers"), for the arguments concerning friendly/enemy at the end of the ability.  

Because it would be equally plausible for someone to claim that the sequence actually goes like this:

• Load up a mindless zombie with poison 3
• Kill the zombie
• It drops a marker for horrendous corpse
• It drops a marker for dying
• Recyle Reduce Reuse DROPS a newly created Mindless Zombie on the table.

since the FAQ for "Four Winds Punch v. Enemy Markers" only actually applies to Four Winds Punch.  👻

This interpretation has really terrible implications for corpse curator 🤣

4 hours ago, Adran said:

It seems unintended, but there is only 1 rules hole I can see. 

I can't see any reason why the second horrendous corpse happens. The "killed" effect on the zombie has not been removed, so whilst you may go through the  " I have a killed model on the table" steps a second time to remove it again,  you never "killed" it a second time. 

The issue here is in order to remove the mindless zombie a second time, you have to go through the killed process a second time, right?

[Maniacal_cackle]

If you want a 'common sense' ruling, you can just say that instead of dropping the mindless zombie back on the table, you drop a corpse as you effectively removed a corpse.

But that raises the question of what happens if you treat curator as a scrap and 'remove' it.

This ability is an annoying rabbit hole xD

[Adran]

39 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

 

The issue here is in order to remove the mindless zombie a second time, you have to go through the killed process a second time, right?

You go through the process of what you do to a killed model again, but you haven't actually killed it a second time. Every time you have a model on the table that is "killed" you go through the process. But becoming "killed" isn't part of that process.

 

My question to you would be why do you think it stopped being killed the first time to need to be killed a second time.

[Maniacal_cackle]

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

You go through the process of what you do to a killed model again, but you haven't actually killed it a second time. Every time you have a model on the table that is "killed" you go through the process. But becoming "killed" isn't part of that process.

 

My question to you would be why do you think it stopped being killed the first time to need to be killed a second time.

After killing effects are part of that process in my mind, but I don't think there is a clear cut answer under the rules.

It clearly wasn't an intended effect xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

It is issues like this one that inspired someone to make this meme 😂

To summarise some of the things you should double check with your TO for McMourning...

• RRR interacting with Mindless Zombie (being killed or removed as a marker)
• RRR interacting Corpse Curator (being killed or taking 2 damage as a marker, or taking 2 damage as a marker resulting in death).
• Corpse curator interacting with desperate plot (do they get the upgrade?)
• The 'obey execute' (can you use Sebastian with plastic-surgeried execute to take a wicked attack against an obeyed model disengaging to control both sides of the duel and execute without them being able to discard/stone?)
• Any other plastic surgery shenanigans you intend to play with.

The first three all have to do with the phrasing of 'removing' a marker.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

My opinion, it’s a huge stretch.

Rule-wise: The Walking Dead ability is only in effect while the zombie is in play. Once it is removed, it is no longer a marker. Either you drop a Corpse Marker (the Marker that an Action/effect removed), or you drop nothing because a Mindless Zombie is only a Marker while in play.

 

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But that raises the question of what happens if you treat curator as a scrap and 'remove' it.

Via common sense… Scrap because that was what the Action/effect which removed it treated it as. The common sense ruling you mentioned would place a Corpse Marker when removing a Mindless Zombie for the same reason.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is issues like this one that inspired someone to make this meme 😂

To summarise some of the things you should double check with your TO for McMourning...

• RRR interacting with Mindless Zombie (being killed or removed as a marker)
• RRR interacting Corpse Curator (being killed or taking 2 damage as a marker, or taking 2 damage as a marker resulting in death).
• Corpse curator interacting with desperate plot (do they get the upgrade?)
• The 'obey execute' (can you use Sebastian with plastic-surgeried execute to take a wicked attack against an obeyed model disengaging to control both sides of the duel and execute without them being able to discard/stone?)
• Any other plastic surgery shenanigans you intend to play with.

The first three all have to do with the phrasing of 'removing' a marker.

Oh another one to add to the list then is what happens when you remove an enemy scheme marker.

If you're not placing back the exact same marker (per the four winds punch FAQ), then you'd drop a friendly scheme marker.

So that's one to resolve if people are playing that you 'copy' the removed marker instead of putting the exact same one onto the table.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Via common sense… Scrap because that was what the Action/effect which removed it treated it as. The common sense ruling you mentioned would place a Corpse Marker when removing a Mindless Zombie for the same reason.

Oh, see above about this one.

If you just drop a marker of the same type, then when you remove an enemy scheme marker, and you drop a scheme marker... That scheme marker will be friendly because when you drop a marker it is friendly to you.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Friendly/Enemy doesn’t affect the type of marker though, it’s an added distinction. There is a Corpse Marker, a friendly Corpse Marker, and an enemy Corpse Marker. The latter two count as the first unless an Action or effect specifically call for the friendly/enemy distinction.

Edit: I see the how four winds is reading. Though the FAQ only allows alignment to persist. Looks like a big assumption is made to allow anything other than alignment to persist when dropping the same removed marker.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Friendly/Enemy doesn’t affect the type of marker though, it’s an added distinction. There is a Corpse Marker, a friendly Corpse Marker, and an enemy Corpse Marker. The latter two count as the first unless an Action or effect specifically call for the friendly/enemy distinction.

That's the point. If the only type you care about is 'scheme marker' , then when Mcmourning uses RRR to drop a scheme marker it is friendly to him (because by default markers you drop are friendly to you).

The only way to keep it enemy is if it specifies enemy like Pearl does or if it drops the exact same marker that you picked up like in the Four wind Punch faq.

[Adran]

Having slept on it and carefully checked the rules, I was wrong about the "after killed " timing, but the rules just don't cover a model counting as a marker when RRR happens. As such I'd strongly recommend not using RRR with mindless zombies or corpse curator. 

In answer to the others, I think if you end a desperate plot in base with a curator you could get excess legs or arms if it took 2 damage. 

The obeyed/ execute one is fine. It's a strong effect, but is it any stronger than hinamatsu getting its attacks on an obeyed disengage when you consider all the extra effort required to set up the interactions. 

[DeadManTalking]

What is the Obey/execute trick?

[Adran]

39 minutes ago, DeadManTalking said:

What is the Obey/execute trick?

Use plastic surgery to give a wicked model an attack with execute. Obey an enemy model to disengage, and you control all the cards and the decisions in that duel, so can choose not to discard a card when you try and execute it. 

[diki]

When you remove the model due to it being killed you also remove the stat card from the game at the same time.

So I think you get this flow:

Load up a mindless zombie with poison 3
Kill the zombie
It drops a marker for horrendous corpse
It drops a marker for dying
You remove the model - at which time you can probably claim that Walking dead is still valid (ish) so you can probably declare RRR
You then finish removeing the model and importantly the stat card.
Then After this you resolve the generated effect from Recyle Reduce Reuse - at which point the Model and Stat card isn't in the game so I don't think you can still use Walking Dead - so you can't treat the model as a marker and drop it

Kinda like resolving a trigger with a target when the target is dead!

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

7 hours ago, Adran said:

As such I'd strongly recommend not using RRR with mindless zombies or corpse curator. 

I think Mindless Zombies are fine with RRR, but I don’t think Corpse Curator actually has interaction with it (also a thought birthed after more sleep). RRR has “After a corpse marker is removed…”, so a Corpse Marker has to be removed prior to the trigger. Corpse Curator’s Animated Remains actually makes it so the Corpse Marker (the Curator) is never removed. For contrast, The Walking Dead doesn’t stop the Corpse Maker removal. This thought comes from the answer given to the Treasure Seekers and Ingenuity thread.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To clarify, Curators potential interaction with rrr is when it dies (and it is removed from the table).

Though the point about not actually removing brings up the upgrade issue. You only attach the upgrades if you remove a marker, but in curators case you don't.

(I just play that RAI that you replaced the 'cost' of removing the marker with 2 damage to curator,  even if that doesn't fully make sense RAW).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Regarding the 'no longer a marker when it leaves the table because the card is gone, I don't really buy it.

First off, the four winds punch FAQ makes you drop the same object, so not sure identity matters.

Even if it did, this will break other stuff.

For example when Yan Lo 2 does a crow trigger on last wishes after Manos dies, Manos' card would be gone so he wouldn't be a friendly Ancestor anymore because his card is gone.

I think the best way to say this interaction doesn't work is to hand wave or rule of intent. Otherwise something else might break in the process.

[Paddywhack]

32 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For example when Yan Lo 2 does a crow trigger on last wishes after Manos dies, Manos' card would be gone so he wouldn't be a friendly Ancestor anymore because his card is gone.

I don't think that's quite the same as it specifies 'friendly Retainer hired this game'. Being alive or dead doesn't matter at all for the trigger. Just that it was Hired during the Hiring phase. Pretty sure that's why it was written that way.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

47 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

First off, the four winds punch FAQ makes you drop the same object, so not sure identity matters.

The Four Winds FAQ only answers whether or not alignment of markers changes when the same marker is dropped. Friendly/Enemy are distinctions that exist off the table, Models become friendly as soon as they are hired before they ever hit the table. Those model's Abilities do not affect the model until they are "in play". I don't think there is any premise for allowing model Abilities to function when not in play unless the Ability specifically says so.

As for Yan 2; his trigger doesn't choose a model in play, since it specifies otherwise, so I don't think it has any relation to RRR/The Walking Dead, which do not specify working outside the confines of play.

[Paddywhack]

51 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

(I just play that RAI that you replaced the 'cost' of removing the marker with 2 damage to curator,  even if that doesn't fully make sense RAW).

I thought this was already sussed out in another thread. A number of us agreed that the 'it instead suffers...' means instead of removing anything, it suffers damage. So nothing is removed to be replaced by RRR.  

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, Curators potential interaction with rrr is when it dies (and it is removed from the table).

Though the point about not actually removing brings up the upgrade issue. You only attach the upgrades if you remove a marker, but in curators case you don't.

(I just play that RAI that you replaced the 'cost' of removing the marker with 2 damage to curator, even if that doesn't fully make sense RAW).

There isn't really an issue; if a Marker is not removed you can not specify an upgrade to attach. Curator suffering 2 damage instead of removing a Marker means that no Marker is removed (unless it becomes killed and subsequently removed from the table).

Specifically speaking when Curator dies and is removed from the table, for RRR or upgrades, I'd say you'd get your choice of resolving as a Corpse or Scrap because a Marker of both types was removed.

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I thought this was already sussed out in another thread. A number of us agreed that the 'it instead suffers...' means instead of removing anything, it suffers damage. So nothing is removed to be replaced by RRR.  

The part you're quoting there is about Desperate Plot.

You only attach an upgrade if you remove a marker. See text at the top of the upgrade that says it can only be attached if you remove a scrap marker.

So thats all that was referencing. It wasn't about RRR.