Zoraida and Wicked

[Regelridderen]

Just started painting up some Swampfiends, when a little trickery struck me. 

Zoraida Obeys an enemy model to disengage one with Wicked. 

The enemy model will of course relent in a fit of subservient masochism paving the way for easily doing some severe damage. 

Seems nasty in my book. 

[diki]

I imagine Hinamatsu makes it into a lot of NVB Zoraida lists!

[diki]

I don't think relenting works though. It requires two friendly models in the duel!

If you obey an enemy model to disengage from your wicked model you control cheating the defensive flip though.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

Just started painting up some Swampfiends, when a little trickery struck me. 

Zoraida Obeys an enemy model to disengage one with Wicked. 

The enemy model will of course relent in a fit of subservient masochism paving the way for easily doing some severe damage. 

Seems nasty in my book. 

You do remember that if you relent you are on to damage. And they can't relent because they aren't friendly.

It has been talked about, but not for a while. It works, but its a lot to go through. 

[Regelridderen]

Nope, I remembered neither of those. 

- which is why I put it up here. If it was obvious to me and not in use, then there’d be a good chance, I was missing something 😁

[SEV]

@Adranis right, but obeying en Ennemy model engaged by one of your wicked model (Hina or grootslang) is still a good play since you control both flip.

[Adran]

You are potentially looking at spending 3-4 cards to get that severe damage, and its likely 2 of them need to be severe. It's something that it is good to be aware of, but I don't think it's likely that you get the situation where it's good in that many games. 

[SEV]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

You are potentially looking at spending 3-4 cards to get that severe damage, and its likely 2 of them need to be severe. It's something that it is good to be aware of, but I don't think it's likely that you get the situation where it's good in that many games. 

You don't always need the severe... but it's true that most of the time doing a regular Hex attack is better. With grootslang you can do 1/2/3 + slow + pushing the obey model wich can come up from time to time. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

For an extreme damage trick...

Zoraida can use poisoned fate on a model, then obey them to disengage from Hinamatsu twice (taking 4 attacks), which results in something like 8 damage from hinamatsu + 4 from poisoned fate.

It burns a ton of cards, but it is a good way to just delete a model off of two opposed duels.

[diki]

You can obey Hina to charge with a threat range of 9" (possibly doing onslaught from built in plus flip but you only control Hina's flips),
then obey what she is then engaging to disengage twice with ensorcel trigger, which let's Hina take two more attacks which can declare triggers (again with plus flips, possibly onslaught and you are controlling all the cards at this point) and let's you move the enemy model twice so if there is any hazardous around you can possibly take advantage of that.

Hina can use stones so you aren't as reliant on cards, and Z1 can draw a new hand during her activation so the main issue for cards is forcing through the ensorcel attack on your enemy.

Comedy MAX maths if everything went perfectly for you:
Poisoned Fate: (they cheat but still fail) 2 damage
Obey Hina
- charge and they cheat attack : 4 damage + 2 fate
- onslaught attack 4  + 2 fate
Obey target they cheat: 2 fate
- They disenage (but don't really )
-- Hina attacks and you cheat for them: 4 + 2 fate
-- onslaught attack 4  + 2 fate
- They disenage again
-- Hina attacks and you cheat for them: 4 + 2 fate
-- onslaught attack 4  + 2 fate
You move them into some horrible terrain
6x Damage track + 8x 2 fate = 40 damage

[Sc4rpelli]

I have a doubt about this zoraida/hinamatsu interaction.

The rules say that "Actions generated by Triggers (and any subsequent Actions generated) cannot declareT riggers, and like other generated Actions, they do not count against a model’s Action limit." So If Zoraida obeys Hinamatsu can Hinamatsu declare the onslaught triggertrigger

edit: l belive she can in the First obey but cannot in the Second, because the Second action is caused by the obey trigger, is that correct?

 

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Sc4rpelli said:

I have a doubt about this zoraida/hinamatsu interaction.

The rules say that "Actions generated by Triggers (and any subsequent Actions generated) cannot declareT riggers, and like other generated Actions, they do not count against a model’s Action limit." So If Zoraida obeys Hinamatsu can Hinamatsu declare the onslaught triggertrigger

edit: l belive she can in the First obey but cannot in the Second, because the Second action is caused by the obey trigger, is that correct?

 

You are right that if Zoraida obeys Hinamatsu with the ensorcel trigger, Hinamatsu can declare triggers from the extra action generated by the obey, but can't for the extra action generated by the Ensorcel trigger. 

It gets complicated when you are having Zoraida Obey model A, and the disengage action from model A is what is generating the attack.  I think this may have been errata'd since it was last discussed, and that the attack generated by the ensorcelled disengage may count as an action generated by an action generated by a trigger, in the same way that Models made to charge by Marcus' trigger can no longer declare triggers on that attack. But I had completely forgotten about that errata and how it would affect this situation until now, so I hadn't thought to mention it, and was probably using the same answers I used when it was last discussed 2 years ago....

 

[diki]

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think this may have been errata'd since it was last discussed, and that the attack generated by the ensorcelled disengage may count as an action generated by an action generated by a trigger, in the same way that Models made to charge by Marcus' trigger can no longer declare triggers on that attack. But I had completely forgotten about that errata and how it would affect this situation until now, so I hadn't thought to mention it, and was probably using the same answers I used when it was last discussed 2 years ago....

Have you seen anything that would overrule the Wicked Ability? I don't think anything about actions generated from triggers would currently stop the text of the wicked ability allowing the ensorcel trigger to stop the actack generated by wicked declaring triggers

[Adran]

27 minutes ago, diki said:

Have you seen anything that would overrule the Wicked Ability? I don't think anything about actions generated from triggers would currently stop the text of the wicked ability allowing the ensorcel trigger to stop the actack generated by wicked declaring triggers

The attack action generated by the disengage action generated by a trigger would count as a subsequent action, and so be subject to the no triggers rule. (page 12)

Or do you mean the general rule that actions generated by triggers can not declare triggers which would overrule the wicked rule that the action could declare a trigger (which itself over rules the rule that models takign disengagign strikes can't declare triggers). Because as I see it the permission granted by Wicked to declare triggers should only overrule the standard disengagement strike rules, not all rules that prevent triggers from being declared. 

Likewise, the to the push prevention for each model also engaging does not become a to the damage flip. 

[SEV]

Hinna can declare trigger on her orginal charge and on the first disengage, but can't on the disengage generate by the ensorcel trigger.

At most you can have 5 attacks with her.

[diki]

I don't see why you should ignore the "BREAKING THE RULES" section on Pg3 for wicked specifically calling out it includes triggers.

I also don't think friendly trigger obeys should be counter tech to disengage from enemy models with wicked!
 

[Adran]

Doesn't wicked state that you resolve the action ( and triggers) as normal? 

That's not permission to declare triggers if you're stunned or its from another trigger ( because that would let you onslaught from an onslaught which I assume you agree you can't do ).

[Adran]

2 hours ago, diki said:

I also don't think friendly trigger obeys should be counter tech to disengage from enemy models with wicked!
 

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Apart from the fact that I can only think of 1 trigger "obey" that can make you disengage, all it would stop is the declaration of triggers not the actual action. And in most cases you aren't going to be able to hit the disengaging model with onslaught because they will move out of range before you get to take the second attack. 

[Regelridderen]

17 hours ago, diki said:

I also don't think friendly trigger obeys should be counter tech to disengage from enemy models with wicked!
 

That's subjective, and you're entitled to your opinion, but...

Wicked states that you can use your attacks 'normal' effects (including Triggers) instead of reducing the push.

'Normal'-ly "actions generated by Triggers (and any subsequent actions) cannot declare Triggers.".

But honestly, if Zoraida needs more than 5 Hinamatsu attacks to deal with a certain model, you're quite likely not getting optimum use out of Zoraidas activation.