Bultungin overlooked?

[AngelRogue]

I get that if you bring 1 bultungin into a Fae game, it will most likely get squashed if it comes into contact with enemies. But has anyone tested the Pack Mentality and hired in all 3 into a minion heavy Fae crew? I'm thinking of testing it in one of my next few games, as it seems like it could make them possibly a worthwhile hire. If I can keep all 3 together, that is a potential Df 7 Wp 6 with a Mv 6. They wouldn't be able to put out extra terrain after the start of the game, but there is a potential Stat 7 attack with a 2/3/4 damage, as well as a stat 7 Toss in the Mud. I see them as a very lethal trio of scheme runner/blockers. Thoughts? Experiences? 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, AngelRogue said:

I get that if you bring 1 bultungin into a Fae game, it will most likely get squashed if it comes into contact with enemies. But has anyone tested the Pack Mentality and hired in all 3 into a minion heavy Fae crew? I'm thinking of testing it in one of my next few games, as it seems like it could make them possibly a worthwhile hire. If I can keep all 3 together, that is a potential Df 7 Wp 6 with a Mv 6. They wouldn't be able to put out extra terrain after the start of the game, but there is a potential Stat 7 attack with a 2/3/4 damage, as well as a stat 7 Toss in the Mud. I see them as a very lethal trio of scheme runner/blockers. Thoughts? Experiences? 

Pack Mentality only affects them on their own activations

[AngelRogue]

Lol seems I overlooked that. Thanks

[AngelRogue]

So, even with it only affecting during activation, would it be worth it or affective to hire all 3? That still is a high chance to hit, should something in their way needs to be killed. And a stat 7 towards toss in the mud makes it easier, if needed. 

I plan to still try it, to see. But I was curious about other people's opinions and experiences. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, AngelRogue said:

So, even with it only affecting during activation, would it be worth it or affective to hire all 3? That still is a high chance to hit, should something in their way needs to be killed. And a stat 7 towards toss in the mud makes it easier, if needed. 

I plan to still try it, to see. But I was curious about other people's opinions and experiences. 

One big issue is they have to split up.

So for instance, if you want to charge 3 in... The first gets no pack mentality, the second one gets only 1 bonus, and the last one finally gets the full bonus.

But sure, give it a go

Especially with Titania 2, they may have more of a place now.

[AngelRogue]

I didn't really think of that. That could definitely be a negative. But do you think attacking like that would also be affective to drain a hand, if all goes well? Progressively harder to beat attacks. If you aim them at something at the late part of a turn, especially if you can out activate, it sounds potentially hard hitting.

I haven't tried Titania 2 yet. I was thinking of waiting until I could have the model. But she looks fun 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, AngelRogue said:

I didn't really think of that. That could definitely be a negative. But do you think attacking like that would also be affective to drain a hand, if all goes well? Progressively harder to beat attacks. If you aim them at something at the late part of a turn, especially if you can out activate, it sounds potentially hard hitting.

I haven't tried Titania 2 yet. I was thinking of waiting until I could have the model. But she looks fun 

I think if you're looking at activation control, bultungin are more likely to lose activation control than gain it.

They're very easy to kill, so it is relatively easy to kill them and gain activation control.

You're probably more looking for a situation where they can run a flank and bully a small model or something, but 15 stones is a lot to put in one place. If there's seriously valuable objectives there, your opponent is going to drop similar levels of commitment.

But if you have them, definitely recommend giving them a go on the table. My view is you should play all models that you purchase, just to see how they feel.

[AngelRogue]

I've had them and put them to the table before. But never together. Have always had a hard time not using my emissary, as he's just such a cool model and puts in some work, and I almost always keep 2 knights and Aeslin. Sometimes 3 knights, just because I enjoy them and tend to slow roll. But lately, I have been playing vs Molly a lot and spend a lot of time looking at the crooligans. I know that the bultungin in no way get as much out of their card as the croolies, but I see them in a similar, but different, light. Partly because of  forage and part due to hit potential. And being move 6 means they could try to avoid a lot. But it may be just me thinking/wanting it to be a thing. Lol

[SEV]

Pack mentality is just bad. This is one of the ability wyrd needs to rethink. 

[extremor]

I Never thought about bultungin as an offensive model. To me they scream „schemer“ but then again 5ss is expansive for a Model with move 6, no Defense tech and Zero other shenanigans to make them decent schemers. 😢 i prefere Waldgeist… especialy since I find the Models to be more beautiful. 
 

but if you figure out how to use  them… give us a hint. 👍

[Morgan Vening]

I think it comes down to this.

If you're taking all three and separating them, there are probably better models you can use. Keyword wise, in Fae I'd prefer two AK/Rou (or one of each) over the Bulti's, or any two Savage Minions.

And if you're grouping them as a combat threat, I'd rather take a heavy hitter (like Nekima1).

I mean, it's not a distinctly Bultingin problem, most minions without a defined role have a similar issue.

I really like the models, but as is, I'll never put them on the table, except maybe one for Toss In Mud. Still think that should have been given the melee trait so you could do it on a Charge (though I was arguing for it for Bayou Wrastlers at the time).

[AngelRogue]

I totally understand choosing Nekima. But there are at least 2 things that I think might be able to make them worth it as beaters. I could be, and probably am, totally wrong. But they do give 3 more underbrush at the start of the game. Also, it is 3 models with decent damage with triggers to give each other an extra attack. So just by shear amount of duels, I think it could be useful. I'm probably wrong, but that's why I am asking the more advanced players for their opinions on them. 

Just from what all you have said so far, I am considering running the 3 with a knight. Let them scheme and engage scheme runners. Or I may keep them behind Titania to attack anyone she engages. This would be more likely if I am using her to go scheme. If and when these ideas crap out, I'll be able to move on from it. Lol

[Morgan Vening]

24 minutes ago, AngelRogue said:

Also, it is 3 models with decent damage with triggers to give each other an extra attack.

But it runs into the issue mentioned earlier that it does nothing for the first one. I wonder, if Pack Tactics allowed a suit (maybe at the cost of a discard, or maybe OPA), that might make the ability worth the ink spent printing it?

24 minutes ago, AngelRogue said:

I am considering running the 3 with a knight. Let them scheme and engage scheme runners.

Now you've got more than 20SS away from the main battle positions. So it's going to be a hard task for it to slow down your opponents big moves. I guess it's more pool dependent. 

[AngelRogue]

If the rest of my models are mostly trying to tie up and reposition my opponent, I don't think the amount of stones spent scoring matters, if it is scoring. But my experiences are limited in opponents, so my opinion has little weight. Lol 

Would the pack mentality be too strong if they had removed the during their own activation aspect? 

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, AngelRogue said:

Would the pack mentality be too strong if they had removed the during their own activation aspect? 

7Df might be seen to be a bit much, but I don't think it's that bad. It's 15SS to do it, and you can separate them (there are plenty of pushes that'll beat the 6Df if they're even resistable), blast/pulse into them (, or just catch them on the move (unless you're only moving them 3-4" during your turn, and another 4" with Deadly Pursuit, there's going to be times when one is separate from the rest, and that's the one you nuke.

I don't think it's the best solution. I'd rather they be more useful singularly or in pairs, and that change to Pack Tactics makes it more an "all or none" proposition.

And you'ld have to either make it a separate ability (which was a fundamental game design choice not to do by Wyrd for 3E) or deal with it on Hounds and Zombies too. I'm not sure that'd be a big deal, but I think people might get miffed at Df7/Wp7 Mindless Zombies.  And Collodi players would be rapt!

But it'd be better than currently exists. Anything would.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Flavour wise, pack tactics in the real world actually involves splitting up...

One wolf attacks from one direction, another wolf from the other.

So could always change pack tactics to work as long as the other models are in LOS.

Of course... Too many models have pack tactics to change it this edition.

[AngelRogue]

Cool ideas. To do least amount of change, wouldn't it be better for them to touch on the current ability? Such as a change in timing of it, and perhaps a cap so that it can't be abused by other crews with the same? 

Just curious what touch ups would bring the model to the table more without unbalance.

[AngelRogue]

Perhaps if they added Hard to Wound, to keep it similar to crew design? 

[Rabbitknight]

They originally existed as scheme runners that could hunt down enemy scheme runners/markers. I think they lost that identity not for lack of rules but a shift in the emphasis of the game. Cheap fragile scheme runners are kind of out, and that was what Bultungin were made to hunt. So they probably need a deeper rework, maybe with a cut in base movement, they could get an ability that lets them pull each other along (maybe make it based on having an enemy marker or model nearby at the end of a move?) and then that along with some defensive movement tech, really lean into the mobility/hunting aspect.

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Rabbitknight said:

They originally existed as scheme runners that could hunt down enemy scheme runners/markers. I think they lost that identity not for lack of rules but a shift in the emphasis of the game. Cheap fragile scheme runners are kind of out, and that was what Bultungin were made to hunt. So they probably need a deeper rework, maybe with a cut in base movement, they could get an ability that lets them pull each other along (maybe make it based on having an enemy marker or model nearby at the end of a move?) and then that along with some defensive movement tech, really lean into the mobility/hunting aspect.

I think just giving them something like a combination stealth+disguised if they're near/in underbrush markers. It solves their problem of being too easy to pick off on all but the most cluttered maps.

[Regelridderen]

In general Pack Mentality is useless. It comes on weak models that easily die and denying you the opportunity to make use of it.  On a whole having a high stat in Malifaux doesn’t do much beyond allowing you to cheat for success - and there are much juicier recipients for the severes in your hand.

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What’s most important in a scheme runner is a third move, allowing the model to interact/scheme twice in a turn. Giving the Bultungin Nimble would remedy that - or  Chain Gang could be fun to emphasize their pack mentality.

I wouldn’t rely on any 2/3/4 damage track to accomplish anything aggressive, although baking a mask into their attack for Coordinated Attack would suddenly make them a great force multiplier - and would emulate the pack thing even more.

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Of course these boons would need to be off set somehow e.g. Mv5 or a 1/2/3 damage track etc., but I’d look into what makes a model interesting and thematic rather than balancing it at first.

 

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

In general Pack Mentality is useless.

No it's not. It's great on Mindless Zombies and Marionettes, models that you can very easily replace and put in a position where it can immediately start making use of pack mentality. It would also be good on models who pull enemies in, like Rotten Belles. But on models that you can't replace and who need to move forward it's not good because the necessity to get up to the enemy to do something means Pack Mentality is inherently limited.

[AngelRogue]

Just out of curiosity, do you think they would get more use if the 3 hung out with the effigy for its lure?

[Regelridderen]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

No it's not. It's great on Mindless Zombies and Marionettes, models that you can very easily replace and put in a position where it can immediately start making use of pack mentality. It would also be good on models who pull enemies in, like Rotten Belles. But on models that you can't replace and who need to move forward it's not good because the necessity to get up to the enemy to do something means Pack Mentality is inherently limited.

Yes… the internet is brimming with stories of games won due to Pack Mentality 😏

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@AngelRoguerelying on a Stat4 Lure in order to make the most of 15 points of models is optimistic at best. Of course, there are better (and more expensive) Lures in Neverborn, but if it’s killing power you want, I’d look elsewhere.

[AngelRogue]

I'm not looking specifically for killing power, or even any thing in particular. I'm just throwing around ideas on how to get something out of them. No one ever finds anything if they don't go looking. I'm not claiming there is anything there. I just enjoy a good conversation and hearing everyone's ideas. Be it on using the models or improving the models. I'm sure there have been plenty of models that were thought useless until someone found the right combo to do something with them. But then, I don't know that for certain and could be totally wrong.