Simultaneous Effects or affected

[scarlett fever]

Hi there,

So I've always read the ruling for Simultaneous Effects as being the model with the effect/s is the model which has the effect written on their card. Due to the use of the language effect in the rules for Simultaneous Effects and also because of the reference "When an effect resolves, the entire effect resolves (even if it also affects a model controlled by the non-Active player)."

However responses to rules here seem to imply the reading of Simultaneous Effects pertains to the affected model, rather than the model with an effect to resolve. Is this the consensus? It seems to make the last sentence in section 1 redundant?

So Terrifying is resolved by the affected model, as is Scatter, Shove Aside, Regeneration, Entropy etc. This seems to make Actions like Yasunori's the Wind's Wrath or similar unnecessarily complicated if they effect models of both players, but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

Rules text for clarity:

Simultaneous Effects

Occasionally, an effect will generate multiple effects that occur at the same time. If this happens, they are resolved in the following order:

1. The Active player (or the player with Initiative, if there is no Active player) chooses one of their models with one or more unresolved effects and resolves those effects in whatever order they wish. Then, that player chooses another of their models with unresolved effects and resolves those effects in the same way, continuing in this manner until the player no longer has models with unresolved effects. When an effect resolves, the entire effect resolves (even if it also affects a model controlled by the non-Active player).

2. The non-Active player resolves any unresolved effects affecting their models, as described above.

3. Any remaining unresolved effects are resolved in an order determined by the Active player (or the player with Initiative, if there is no Active player).

[solkan]

I think the important thing to remember is that, mostly, effects happen in the order that they’re written in.  For example, if an action or an ability says “suffer X damage and gains Burning +1”, that’s the order in which those things happen.

It’s mostly for blasts, pulses, and “all models with X”” effects, or a bunch of models getting an ability triggered at once, that you end going to simultaneous effects on multiple models.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

'Effect' is not well defined in Malifaux, but we can infer that it tends to be small (for example 'heal 4 and bury' is two separate effects in the FAQ from memory).

Affected model seems to be ambiguous, but most people play it as the model where something is happening to it. This makes even more sense when you read section 2 (which simplifies it to "resolves any unresolved effects affecting their models")

So I read it as it being based on who is affected rather than who owns the effect (aka, the attacker is the affected model for terrifying).

Yasunori phrasing makes sense as I guess that is a single effect moving multiple models, so you resolve it during the active player step (even for other models)?

[scarlett fever]

Section 2 does make sense of your interpretation, true, having used the term affected.

But Winds Wrath becomes wonky, there's nothing about a single effect affecting multiple models being treated differently, particularly if heal and bury are distinct but multiple affected models are not. If it only effects opponents models then they choose the order of the effects on each model? If both players models affected active player chooses?

[Maniacal_cackle]

It is probably a bit ambiguous, but since Yasunori is doing the moving, I would say that Yasunori does the ordering as well.

After all, he gets to resolve his effects in whatever order he wishes in step 1 of simultaneous effects. Non-active player doesn't make decisions until step 2, and Yasunori is done in step 1?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I imagine:

Move all models in range 1" (one effect affecting multiple models).

Push this model 5 inches. If it comes into contact with another model, push it 5 inches away from this model (two effects affecting one model each)?

[scarlett fever]

So Scatter order is controlled by the opposing player (read affected models are all opposing players, as per other effects) or Fuhatsu (affects multiple models so Fuhatsu gets lucky)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, scarlett fever said:

So Scatter order is controlled by the opposing player (read affected models are all opposing players, as per other effects) or Fuhatsu (affects multiple models so Fuhatsu gets lucky)?

Sounds like opposing player to me! As you say, Fuhatsu himself isn't affected. This could prove somewhat advantageous (for instance, if you have one model behind another helping box it in).

That never occurred to me before, I always assumed the scatter player chose the order.

[scarlett fever]

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sounds like opposing player to me! As you say, Fuhatsu himself isn't affected. This could prove somewhat advantageous (for instance, if you have one model behind another helping box it in).

That never occurred to me before, I always assumed the scatter player chose the order.

Yes me too, hence my first post. I try to play as close to RAW as I can. If the rules are as you say then I think Wrath should be split into active and non-Active players, otherwise you can't assign Simultaneous Effects that effect multiple models and players to Active or non-Active.

In M2e you could box in as you say.

[scarlett fever]

So someone answered on AWP that the ruling is to resolve effects generated by the active players models first and then effects generated by the non-active player. This resolves this ruling for me and makes it much simpler but does mean that Terrifying is resolved in step 2 and its order controlled by the non-active player as its an effect generated by the non-active players model. Which I don't think is of great importance just a difference in how I've heard it interpreted before. 

[Paddywhack]

I think Scatter would allow the Attacking model to choose the order of pushes. They are generating the effect. 

[touchdown]

15 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is probably a bit ambiguous, but since Yasunori is doing the moving, I would say that Yasunori does the ordering as well.

After all, he gets to resolve his effects in whatever order he wishes in step 1 of simultaneous effects. Non-active player doesn't make decisions until step 2, and Yasunori is done in step 1?

This is a tough one, in a shockwave attack the defending player chooses the order. I can certainly see an argument for Yas moves all friendly models in the order the Yas player chooses then moves all enemy models in the order the opposing player chooses.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, scarlett fever said:

So someone answered on AWP that the ruling is to resolve effects generated by the active players models first and then effects generated by the non-active player. This resolves this ruling for me and makes it much simpler but does mean that Terrifying is resolved in step 2 and its order controlled by the non-active player as its an effect generated by the non-active players model. Which I don't think is of great importance just a difference in how I've heard it interpreted before. 

Whats AWP?

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Whats AWP?

A Wyrd Place. Facebook group.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

A Wyrd Place. Facebook group.

Oh, that one.

That answer didn't make any sense to me since it doesn't reference the rules at all, but here's what they said:

Quote

It's not that complicated. You resolve any effects generated by the active player's models first, even if they affect enemy models. In the case of Wind's Wrath, you move the models (enemy or friendly) in any order.

 

[Vatic]

I think for this section of rules to work, you have to define "effect" as "the thing written on the card" and therefore the effect belongs to the model whose card it is written on.

The ordering then goes

1. Effects written on the active players card, affecting either player's models, with order chosen by the active player. 

2. Effects written on the non-active players cards (or not on any card, such as terrain) affecting only the non-active player's models, with order chosen by the non-active player.

3. Other effects, including those on the non-active player's cards but affecting the active players models. Crucially, this ordering is chosen by the active player (even if it is one of the non-active player's effects).

This means you are unlikely to be able to do the terrifying, take the hit, terrifying combo. These all happen in step 3 and the active player gets to choose their order. So I would say if you want to use take the hit, you have to declare and discard before the active player takes the terrifying duel.

It's especially confusing that they don't capitalise some of the "effects". The first sentence of this rules section would much more sense if instead of reading as:

"Occasionally, an effect will generate multiple effects that occur at the same time. "

It read as

"Occasionally, an Effect will generate multiple effects that occur at the same time. "

[Vatic]

Although on reading through the faq, I noticed this:

4.  Some Actions have listed effects that are two distinct impacts on a model, such as “Target suffers 2/3/4 damage and is Pushed up to 3" in any direction.” Are these two distinct impacts considered separate effects?

a)  Yes. In the above instance, these are separate effects that resolve independently. These effects are always resolved one at a time in the order presented in the text. If a model is killed (and removed) from the first of these effects, any following effects (such as being Pushed, discarding cards, etc.) are ignored.

 

This seems to confuse things even more in my mind. If the damage and the push are two distinct effects, then in theory the active player could choose to slot another effect in between them, if it has the same timing? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Vatic said:

Although on reading through the faq, I noticed this:

4.  Some Actions have listed effects that are two distinct impacts on a model, such as “Target suffers 2/3/4 damage and is Pushed up to 3" in any direction.” Are these two distinct impacts considered separate effects?

a)  Yes. In the above instance, these are separate effects that resolve independently. These effects are always resolved one at a time in the order presented in the text. If a model is killed (and removed) from the first of these effects, any following effects (such as being Pushed, discarding cards, etc.) are ignored.

 

This seems to confuse things even more in my mind. If the damage and the push are two distinct effects, then in theory the active player could choose to slot another effect in between them, if it has the same timing? 

I think this will generally end up being sequential effects, not simultaneous. Simultaneous is for when two things are generated at the same time (such as 'after resolving'). For doing an action, you do the effects in the order listed on the card.

However, it is ambiguous whether you generate them all at once and resolve through them, or if you generate-resolve-generate-resolve. I assume you generate them all at once.

[Vatic]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think this will generally end up being sequential effects, not simultaneous. Simultaneous is for when two things are generated at the same time (such as 'after resolving'). For doing an action, you do the effects in the order listed on the card.

However, it is ambiguous whether you generate them all at once and resolve through them, or if you generate-resolve-generate-resolve. I assume you generate them all at once.

I think sequential could make this even more odd (although I can't think of anything off hand that has the right timing for it to happen).

If you treat the damage and the push as sequential, then the sequential rules say not to resolve the push until "after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved". 

Maybe there are no situations where that matters.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Vatic said:

I think sequential could make this even more odd (although I can't think of anything off hand that has the right timing for it to happen).

If you treat the damage and the push as sequential, then the sequential rules say not to resolve the push until "after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved". 

Maybe there are no situations where that matters.

It matters for Black Blood for instance. Black Blood is generated at step 5 of damage, so if you have damage + a push, then the timing of black blood matters a lot.

[scarlett fever]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, that one.

That answer didn't make any sense to me since it doesn't reference the rules at all, but here's what they said:

 

Sure it doesn't exactly quote the rules but it appears to be one of the two interpretations.

This interpretation is close to my original interpretation and some others that when the rules state "models with one or more unresolved effects" they are talking about effects on the models card (effects generated by the model) rather than the second possible interpretation that the rules are talking about effects that are affecting the model. Which is the implication if it is stated that Terrifying should be resolved in step 1 during the Active model step, which I have definitely heard in podcasts and seen written on forums. 

Those seem like the 2 most likely interpretations that I can tell and both lead to different outcomes.