Outcasts in MARCHing Explorers

[RisingPhoenix]

Oh, let me put it this way.  I would not consider running Parker seriously in a single master tournament.  What I discovered through testing things like Hodgepodge Emissary, Hans, more Dead Outlaws, Bandidos, Convict Gunslingers (choking noise), and more, is that in GG0 I liked subbing in Ashes in Dust.  In GG1 I like literally none of it. 

Barbaros is like a crappy version of what GG0 A&D was, so I can see the attraction, but I still don't love it.  You're still left with too many soulstones to spend on mediocrity (and Barbaros is a good definition of mediocrity to begin with). 

We are at this point missing our versatile model box like a GLARING weakness, and for some unfathomable reason Wyrd has decided that they specifically hate Outcasts taking OOK models, and they're going to hunt through every one of our lists and smash everything taken OOK, even though the primary reason I'm taking OOK is the depressing quality that my lists develop when I stay in keyword.  They even made a change to Hannah that punishes you taking her OOK. 

Between that and the Explorer Society, I admit I'm a little jaded on M3E.  If the Versatile box is stupidly OP and a "must buy" after they smashed every OOK model for our faction, I'm gonna be more than a tad angry.

[Azahul]

Ok, well therein is the difference I suppose. I do think Parker performs well in GG1, or at least in one specific strat with one specific build tailor made with that strat in mind.

 

Barbaros does a few things better than Ashes and Dust at least, in that he's better at compelling the opponent to fight him even when they know it's a losing proposition, and he's better at engaging multiple opponents. But hey, I'm keen to see the new models too. I'm not exactly feeling their absence but new options should be neat.

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

We are at this point missing our versatile model box like a GLARING weakness,

Not sure about this. We have quite good versatile pieces and very useful versatile tech pieces. 

Midnight Stalker is an extraordinary Scheme Runner, what makes our whole faction better by himself. I bet Guild would love to have him instead almost any other of their versatiles. 

Prospectors are really useful support pieces. They provide us with resources that many other factions would love to have. 

Hodgepodge Effigy is an ultra cheap healer that can help lots in crews without healing (like Plague or Tormented) or improve the survivability of any crew for cheap. 

The Emissary is... Well I really don't use the Emissary because 10ss for a support model is a bit much for me, although he really improves both mobility and durability of the crew. 

Johanna may not be the auto-take it was back in M2E, but she still beats like a truck and is a star against heavy conditions crews. 

Barbaros is what every tank should be. He can beat, is tough, heals himself, attracts aggro and does damage to enemies when attacked. 

Pride is the best of Crossroad seven, wich by itself doesn't mean a lot, but he's very useful both supporting your crew and messing with the opponent. 

The child is a 3ss significant model that can help your crew. Can't ask for much else at that price. 

Hans... Wel, as the Emissary I don't like him much. He's obviously not good enough as sniper damage dealer, but he can indeed nullify any model at a good range by giving it Slow, Distracted and Stunned. Specially good against crews that rely on Terrifying/Manipulative for defense. 

 

Maybe we don't have the best single versatile model, or the best group of versatiles. Damn, we don't have any OP-Broken versatile, bit we have very good gap-filling pieces and even our worse versatiles may have their niche role. Yes, I would like to see some improvement on Hans damage-dealing capability, but it's almost the only thing I really think needs help. Maybe we don't need some pieces because we don't need them, but that doesn't mean they're bad. 

[touchdown]

I think Hans is seriously underrated. Handing out slow/staggered from 24" away is huge. No other faction can do that (Crypsis Corps can do staggered but no way guarantee the suit)

[ShinChan]

21 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I think Hans is seriously underrated. Handing out slow/staggered from 24" away is huge. No other faction can do that (Crypsis Corps can do staggered but no way guarantee the suit)

That requires 4 actions to put both (2 concentrate + 2 shots) + having the right cards in hand. 8ss in a model that really needs a lot of support to work properly is "meh". I find more useful the Stunned + Distracted + 3" Push, but sadly it's stat 5.

[Zebo]

I think he means slow or staggered, not both. 

[touchdown]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

That requires 4 actions to put both (2 concentrate + 2 shots) + having the right cards in hand. 8ss in a model that really needs a lot of support to work properly is "meh". I find more useful the Stunned + Distracted + 3" Push, but sadly it's stat 5.

Just putting slow + 2 damage from 24" away on turn on a key model is good

[touchdown]

Just now, Zebo said:

I think he means slow or staggered, not both. 

Yeah on turn 1, it's often the same result. They're only getting 1 ap of movement. All you need is 1 card of either suit and be able to hit.

[Zebo]

I disagree that 2 damage+slow each turn is a good deal for a 8ss model, no matter the range. 

[touchdown]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

I disagree that 2 damage+slow each turn is a good deal for a 8ss model, no matter the range. 

at 14" it's 4-5 damage and slow/staggered (either and in some cases both), or if you need it, a 3,4,6 damage track. Being able to reach out and touch any enemy model on turn 1 (or forcing them to hide behind terrain) and then doing work on later turns is big. Most beaters are just double walking or walk-focusing turn 1.

[RisingPhoenix]

I guarantee you that Guild would rather have The Pale Rider, or Guild Stewart rather than our versatile.  They actually have pretty good ones.  Stewart alone has Foul-Mouthed Motivation, Dispel Magic, and Protection Money, as well as a 4/6/8 damage bomb for whoever is silly enough to kill him.  The silly thing is practically Tanuki good.  And Pale Rider, well, it might have gotten nerfed, but now it's just good rather than "so OP it almost makes them look like a real faction."  Then they have Peacekeepers?  Man, we get Hodgepodge Emmisary, they get a 9 wound, armor 2, HtW model with potentially 4 actions and min 3?  YES PLEASE.  I WOULD LOVE A PEACEKEEPER PLEASE

You're probably underselling Dr. Grimwell too a bit because damn he's got some fun interactions, but just... Peacekeeper and Stewart.  I'd probably ship all of Outcast's versatile models for rider, peacekeeper and stewart.

The problem with Guild is just that the only good masters are Daschel (who got card draw, so is now "summoner OP") and Hoffman.  It isn't bad versatiles, it's that their keywords are all some degree of shitty (like comparing Perdita to Ophilia is a damn joke). 

Also some of you must be playing on some pretty sparse tables, if Hans is shooting 24". And have a lot of spare cards that always seemed to actually hurt me when I discard them.  Like if I need a crow and the only crow I drew is the 11, do I just toss it?  Cheat it in even if the flip is high?

Edit: Also I'm pretty sure the gold standard of tanks is the new Intrepid Emissary, what with his Take the Hit (missing from Barbaros), Phalanx, Df 7, Armor +1, HtK, and 10 wounds.  That being said, Phiona Gage (to go back to the Guild theme).  Barbaros is one of those tanks who doesn't give you much reason to attack him besides the Challenge Mechanic (which for some reason still ends at end of turn, not at start of next activation)

[touchdown]

42 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Also some of you must be playing on some pretty sparse tables, if Hans is shooting 24". And have a lot of spare cards that always seemed to actually hurt me when I discard them.  Like if I need a crow and the only crow I drew is the 11, do I just toss it?  Cheat it in even if the flip is high?

To be honest, the fear of what Hans can do generally effects the game more than what he does. My opponent spending AP walking to non-ideal locations to hide is worth a lot. I have no problem cheating an 11 crows in to get slow (in this situation I would probably not do Field Guide). I mostly use Field Guide on turn 1 while playing cagey. Once the big action starts, I should be shooting from 14" so I'm more willing to live with top deck, unless there's a juicy opportunity.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Edit: Also I'm pretty sure the gold standard of tanks is the new Intrepid Emissary, what with his Take the Hit (missing from Barbaros), Phalanx, Df 7, Armor +1, HtK, and 10 wounds.  That being said, Phiona Gage (to go back to the Guild theme).  Barbaros is one of those tanks who doesn't give you much reason to attack him besides the Challenge Mechanic (which for some reason still ends at end of turn, not at start of next activation)

To be honest if it weren't for Flush with Cash I would consider the Emissary easier to kill than Barbaros, but then again I do expect a model 3 stones more expensive to be better in the role.

 

Not having Take the Hit does mean there are more ways around Barbaros's tanking, absolutely, but he isn't just limited to Challenge to compel opponents to attack him. Both Bring It and Shove Aside being built in on his attack should make it easy enough to engage 2+ enemies each round. Not useful against opponents with ways to just leave combat, to be sure, but against anything lacking that option he becomes quite obnoxious.

[Azahul]

More generally, I don't feel as Outcasts we're exactly longing for a Peacekeeper. Nearly all our Keywords are about doing damage. We don't need Versatile beaters. What we need are models exactly like the Prospectors, who give cards and stones to resource-hungry keywords without the means to generate their own (lots of Discard effects in Freikorps and Mercenary and not a lot of draw for example) and the Midnight Stalker, a self-sufficient schemer missing from nearly every keyword we have. And I'd take our Emissary over the Peacekeeper every time, because again it's offering tools our Keywords don't always have whereas the Peacekeeper ultimately is just there to throw out damage and we have so many options as a faction for that.

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

To be honest if it weren't for Flush with Cash I would consider the Emissary easier to kill than Barbaros, but then again I do expect a model 3 stones more expensive to be better in the role.

 

Not having Take the Hit does mean there are more ways around Barbaros's tanking, absolutely, but he isn't just limited to Challenge to compel opponents to attack him. Both Bring It and Shove Aside being built in on his attack should make it easy enough to engage 2+ enemies each round. Not useful against opponents with ways to just leave combat, to be sure, but against anything lacking that option he becomes quite obnoxious.

Man a 7 Stone Barbaros would be some amazing shit.  Yeah, I'd kill for one of those two.  Which errata knocked two stones off his cost again?

Anyway, for 1 stone, you go from Df 5 to 7, which is the difference between the melee attack of a Prospector, and the melee attack of Viktoria Chambers.  Oh, and you pick up Hard to Kill. 

Yeah, wow, 7 stone Barbaros.  That'd be insane.  Hey, why the hell is our 9 stone "tank" defense 5?

[Azahul]

Just now, RisingPhoenix said:

Man a 7 Stone Barbaros would be some amazing shit.  Yeah, I'd kill for one of those two.  Which errata knocked two stones off his cost again?

Anyway, for 1 stone, you go from Df 5 to 7, which is the difference between the melee attack of a Prospector, and the melee attack of Viktoria Chambers.  Oh, and you pick up Hard to Kill. 

Yeah, wow, 7 stone Barbaros.  That'd be insane. 

Because I said the Flush with Cash upgrade is what makes the Emissary harder to kill than Barbaros, which makes it Cost 12. Without that Barbaros takes more work to kill. That's where the price difference comes from.

 

Admittedly I'm being a little unfair, because I'm considering Barbaros in the context of Parker and near limitless supplies of Soulstones (and cards) and I'm not particularly considering outside factors Explorers might bring in to make the Emissary harder to kill.

[touchdown]

10 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Because I said the Flush with Cash upgrade is what makes the Emissary harder to kill than Barbaros, which makes it Cost 12. Without that Barbaros takes more work to kill. That's where the price difference comes from.

 

Admittedly I'm being a little unfair, because I'm considering Barbaros in the context of Parker and near limitless supplies of Soulstones (and cards) and I'm not particularly considering outside factors Explorers might bring in to make the Emissary harder to kill.

I think it's great you found a combo that works. There's no one way to play Malifaux

[ShinChan]

Love how the conversation completely deviated from my original topic lmao

I prefer Outcasts cool donkey guy than the ES Emissary. Ours bring much more support and has great synergies with most of the Outcasts keywords.

What do you guys think it would be good for round 2? I'm playing against another Outcast player, so I have no idea on what to bring to the table lol I'm considering Von Schill, even if my experience with him is almost none, but it's a great generalist crew.

 

[Azahul]

I am but a simple man. I see Recover Evidence with Vendetta in the pool, I play Hamelin.

 

That is some wild terrain mind. I could prosecute an argument for Jack Daw just to worry about it less.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Leveticus seems good in round two, right? Especially with Emissary for Don't Mind Me and the other synergies?

[Azahul]

I don't super love the scheme pool for Leveticus, but it's not like he's ever really a bad choice any time you get a Strat with killing. 

 

Hamelin would still be my go-to on this one. Obedient Wretch is an easy couple of points, you can lure in and kill an Evidence model each round, and you can run a list where your opponent will need to enter your deployment zone to pick up most of your markers (hire two Rat Kings and have everyone else be Benny's support crew, when markers get placed on the Kings just have them Interact and Rat Problem turn one to drop their markers in your deployment zone and get some Don't Mind Me Rat Catchers on the board).

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

Because I said the Flush with Cash upgrade is what makes the Emissary harder to kill than Barbaros, which makes it Cost 12. Without that Barbaros takes more work to kill. That's where the price difference comes from.

 

Admittedly I'm being a little unfair, because I'm considering Barbaros in the context of Parker and near limitless supplies of Soulstones (and cards) and I'm not particularly considering outside factors Explorers might bring in to make the Emissary harder to kill.

Um, you might want to check the front of the card for the stat labeled "DF".  It's the leftmost bubble, pretty big, hard to miss. 

Flush with Cash is an entirely different problem.

[Azahul]

29 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Um, you might want to check the front of the card for the stat labeled "DF".  It's the leftmost bubble, pretty big, hard to miss. 

Flush with Cash is an entirely different problem.

I've seen it. It doesn't protect from as much as being able to spend a stone for prevention on nearly every damage flip. Plenty of crews target Willpower instead of Defence. Stuff that ignores Soulstone use can very nearly be counted on one hand. A 3 damage hit averages zero damage on Barbaros even before Marlena gets involved. Defence is nearly irrelevant on a model where Severe damage flips barely scratch you and the crew is full of healers.

 

Plus you typically have a massive hand advantage on your opponent, between all the crew's card draw and the fact that Parker doesn't need to win duels to do his job, so even at Df 5 Barbaros wins his fair share of defensive duels.

 

Not trying to argue that the Emissary is in any way weaker than Barbaros. I think it's clearly the better model. But it is playing a slightly different role and dies more easily.

 

We're off topic again though  

[touchdown]

Von Schill doesn't have a great option for catch and release (although I could see doing it with a librarian or engineer with some upgrades), and no way to guarantee research mission. Otoh scouts are amazing at vendetta. Any outcast crew can do leave your mark between the emissary, and prospectors.

17 hours ago, Azahul said:

I don't super love the scheme pool for Leveticus, but it's not like he's ever really a bad choice any time you get a Strat with killing.

I think he's a great option here. Alyce makes pit traps. Necropunks and Scavengers are both great at catch and release. A scavenger can do vendetta in a pinch.

Finally, I have to say the Viks could do it . Ronin are great options for Hidden Martyrs, Catch and Release (no thinks twice if you send one to attack a hench and then after reveal you're battle tempoing/on the moving away and ending up 15" away). They can also do Vendetta. You'd have to bring an ook model if you want to threaten or make sure you accomplish research mission (I like Alyce here a lot, but Mad Dog or even Zipp are good options). Big Jake is always fun as your sacrifice option for Hidden Martyrs. The one thing to worry about is that the non-leader Vik is a juicy Vendetta target.

[Azahul]

I'd just be a bit worried at how easily the Viks might give up strategy points, and with Leveticus getting Alyce to the middle of the table on that terrain set-up seems tricky. But yeah, those are certainly some options