Outcasts in MARCHing Explorers

[ShinChan]

So, any outcasts players around? I'm back to Outcast from Bayou. I wanted to play Ressers, but I believe that if there is an errata coming, 2 out of my 3 masters (Reva an Schtook) will be impacted by it.

This time I'll try to put Parker in the table, although it seems that I struggle to make him work properly. I've played 11 games with him in GG1, only won 6...

I wish we got a small buff for his minions, the Gunslingers are definitely not worth 8ss right now, they're too squishy.

[Azahul]

I'm going to be without a stable internet connection this month, so had to give it a miss

 

For Parker, I'm a huge fan of this build in Public Enemies:

 

Deal With The Devil (Outcasts)
Size: 50 - Pool: 4
Leader:
  Parker Barrows
    Wanted Criminal
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Barbaros
  Hodgepodge Emissary
  Marlena Webster
  Prospector
References:
  Memento
  Pretty Floral Bonnet
  Vitality Potion

 

The Prospector is the only particularly vulnerable model in that list and it isn't worth a point for the strategy. Parker and Barbaros work as frontline tanks and are pretty close to unkillable with near bottomless reserves of Soulstones (you should be gaining 3-4 a turn with all the card draw and Parker's positive flips getting you tomes. Mad Dog gets you your points in the Strategy pretty easily.

 

Works well in Recover Evidence too for much the same reason but I generally like Hamelin more there.

[ShinChan]

25 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I'm going to be without a stable internet connection this month, so had to give it a miss

 

For Parker, I'm a huge fan of this build in Public Enemies:

 

Deal With The Devil (Outcasts)
Size: 50 - Pool: 4
Leader:
  Parker Barrows
    Wanted Criminal
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Barbaros
  Hodgepodge Emissary
  Marlena Webster
  Prospector
References:
  Memento
  Pretty Floral Bonnet
  Vitality Potion

 

The Prospector is the only particularly vulnerable model in that list and it isn't worth a point for the strategy. Parker and Barbaros work as frontline tanks and are pretty close to unkillable with near bottomless reserves of Soulstones (you should be gaining 3-4 a turn with all the card draw and Parker's positive flips getting you tomes. Mad Dog gets you your points in the Strategy pretty easily.

 

Works well in Recover Evidence too for much the same reason but I generally like Hamelin more there.

I've been playing with Marlena more and more (out of those 11 games I've played, 6 were with Marlena), but my list differs a bit from yours:

Size: 50 - Pool: 4
Leader:
  Parker Barrows
    Wanted Criminal
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Sue
  Hodgepodge Emissary
  Marlena Webster
  Pride
 

Pride is just a random pick honestly, although he's decent. Sue becomes resilient enough to make me put him in the table. I could see myself switching from Pride to a Prospector, at least to take care of my own scheme markers that I don't have a use for (only Mad Dog consumes 1/turn).

Also, I'm never 100% sure that Wanted Criminal is worth it on Parker, in some games is totally useless and in other draws me 4-6 cards (which could do with triple Stick Up anyways).

[Azahul]

I play Parker as a melee fighter myself. Often with the Pretty Little Bonnet so that after the first damaging hit he's Stat 6 for the rest of that fight. I aim to have him engaged on Turn 2, Turn 1 sometimes, and stay engaged until Turn 5, ideally locking down the opponent's biggest beater. Wanted Criminal pays for itself real fast.

I also can't recommend Barbaros enough. He's nigh indestructible with access to this many stones, and late game can often afford to just start buying Crit Strikes with however many he has left. Shove Aside and Bring It give you a lot of ways to manipulate the opponent's board state for the likes of Claim Jump and Take Prisoner. With armour and Marlena and all those stones he almost never takes more than 1 damage/hit so Black Blood becomes pretty ridiculous.

[S4lt]

I just don't think Parker is good enough in GG1. He's generally the 4th best pick in any given match up. 

[Azahul]

I think he's one of our best on Public Enemies. He just doesn't give up Strat points, and should be able to score 2-3.

 

I agree that I have other preferences for the remaining strategies.

[ShinChan]

19 hours ago, Azahul said:

I think he's one of our best on Public Enemies. He just doesn't give up Strat points, and should be able to score 2-3.

 

I agree that I have other preferences for the remaining strategies.

Leve or Von Schill are better IMHO. Parker dies if the opponent has a beefy crew. For Wanted Criminal to be worth it, it would have to draw me 4-5 cards, which doesn't always do, but when it does, it's great. I just wish that the "Drop it!" trigger allowed us to put the scheme marker instead of the enemy model, which prevents Parker from drawing extra cards when my other models hit the trigger.

I'll try Barbados, after all Sue is just mediocre.

[Azahul]

Interesting. My experience is that Wanted Criminal usually draws me 4-5 cards by Turn 3, typically on the higher end of that, on a pretty consistent basis. It would be nice if Drop It from other models worked near him more often, but since Mad Dog is my only Keyword hire I don't notice it much.

 

Parker's deaths have been perishingly rare in my games with him. I'm not sure where the standard of beefy lies, but I've had crews like Dreamer, Yan Lo, and Misaki bounce off him. One of the advantages of a Master who doesn't need to win duels to do his job in his own activation and who also brings a lot of card draw is that you can usually win a lot of defensive duels, and the crew is packing a lot of healing for good measure.

 

I wouldn't expect him to win a straight fight against Leveticus, but that's really because Irreducible damage foils his whole "spend a stone on every attack" schtick. I would expect him to be better at denying points, since his crew is very difficult to crack open, and to scheme more efficiently thanks to all the incidental scheme markers Parker can put down. There may be some pools where I'd prefer Leveticus on Public Enemies, but I'm honestly not sure they're the majority.

[ElPuto]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:31 PM, Azahul said:

I'm going to be without a stable internet connection this month, so had to give it a miss

 

For Parker, I'm a huge fan of this build in Public Enemies:

 

Deal With The Devil (Outcasts)
Size: 50 - Pool: 4
Leader:
  Parker Barrows
    Wanted Criminal
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Barbaros
  Hodgepodge Emissary
  Marlena Webster
  Prospector
References:
  Memento
  Pretty Floral Bonnet
  Vitality Potion

 

The Prospector is the only particularly vulnerable model in that list and it isn't worth a point for the strategy. Parker and Barbaros work as frontline tanks and are pretty close to unkillable with near bottomless reserves of Soulstones (you should be gaining 3-4 a turn with all the card draw and Parker's positive flips getting you tomes. Mad Dog gets you your points in the Strategy pretty easily.

 

Works well in Recover Evidence too for much the same reason but I generally like Hamelin more there.

Would you play something similar into Leylines? The list is intriguing.

[touchdown]

Nice to see some love for Barbaros in this thread. I know he was maligned a lot but I always thought he had play reading his card. I need to get him on the table.

[ShinChan]

15 hours ago, Azahul said:

Parker's deaths have been perishingly rare in my games with him. I'm not sure where the standard of beefy lies, but I've had crews like Dreamer, Yan Lo, and Misaki bounce off him. One of the advantages of a Master who doesn't need to win duels to do his job in his own activation and who also brings a lot of card draw is that you can usually win a lot of defensive duels, and the crew is packing a lot of healing for good measure.

Titania, Misaki and Seamus were the last offenders that killed my poor Parker. There was a game vs Colette that Parker stayed stunned from turn 2 to turn 5, so he didn't do much either.

1 minute ago, touchdown said:

Nice to see some love for Barbaros in this thread. I know he was maligned a lot but I always thought he had play reading his card. I need to get him on the table.

Gotta be honest here, the main reason I'm reluctant to play Barbados is that I don't like the model at all 😅

 

[Azahul]

7 hours ago, ElPuto said:

Would you play something similar into Leylines? The list is intriguing.

It's pretty specifically tooled for Public Enemies, but it's not outright bad at Leylines. Some fast models, free interact actions, and Barbaros can push enemy Lodestone bearers off the centre marker if he gets a shot.

3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Gotta be honest here, the main reason I'm reluctant to play Barbados is that I don't like the model at all 😅

 

That's why you gotta get your hands on the alt Barbaros figure!

3 hours ago, touchdown said:

Nice to see some love for Barbaros in this thread. I know he was maligned a lot but I always thought he had play reading his card. I need to get him on the table.

Having a near bottomless pool of stones to pull from goes a long way. As does spending 19 stones on models to help keep him alive...

[SEV]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

That's why you gotta get your hands on the alt Barbaros figure!

There's an alt Barbaros! Nice. I agree that the figure is not great. My own answer would be convert it!

Btw playing often against ShinShan with Parker, I must admit that his crew is surprisingly sturdy. The only things that put him as a middle of the pack master is his fairness. Even though he can draw a bunch of card and keep his models alive, his crew doesn't do anything especially broken. They also lack Mobility in keyword (Emissary help, but they won't be mistaken with Infamous).

 

[Azahul]

11 minutes ago, SEV said:

There's an alt Barbaros! Nice. I agree that the figure is not great. My own answer would be convert it!

Btw playing often against ShinShan with Parker, I must admit that his crew is surprisingly sturdy. The only things that put him as a middle of the pack master is his fairness. Even though he can draw a bunch of card and keep his models alive, his crew doesn't do anything especially broken. They also lack Mobility in keyword (Emissary help, but they won't be mistaken with Infamous).

 

Oh you're correct about the weaknesses, though it can be deceptive. I like them for Public Enemies because, yeah, someone like Zipp is way better for Symbols or the like. Fistful of Scrip does mean that you can get some interestingly placed scheme markers though, making this a bubble crew that's weirdly good at schemes like Sprsad Them Out. 

 

The unfairness only really creeps in late turn 3/4, where your opponent is still having to punch through Soulstones being spent to reduce every remotely significant damage flip. You win by out-resourcing your opponent, but that only becomes apparent once the opponent has run out. Coupled with the fact that you probably go through 12 cards in hand over an average turn, it's a draining crew to fight that just doesn't taper off in later turns the way most crews do. 

[RisingPhoenix]

My kind of hatred of vassal is impacting how much play I get in since I only have one friend I feel comfortable regularly meeting up with

I feel like we're going to be in a great spot as a faction as soon as the versatile model box drops.  Although frankly all we need is Mr. Ngaatoro, and we'd be golden.  But even if the box doesn't have any model quite so excellently balanced, more choices would be nice.

 

@ShinChan my current favorite Parker Barrows list:

Leader:
  Leveticus
    Servant of Dark Powers
Totem(s):
  Hollow Waif
  Hollow Waif 2
Hires:
  Rusty Alyce
    Servant of Dark Powers
  Parker Barrows
  Scavenger
  Marlena Webster
 

You can tell it's a Parker Barrows crew because it has Parker Barrows in it.  You can jiggle stuff around and get a Necropunk if you need more scheme running than the scavenger (scavengers are bizarrely good scheme running for a support model, they're just good at everything). 

You can also run this version if you have a burning need for dakka

Leader:
  Parker Barrows
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Leveticus
  Hollow Waif
  Hollow Waif 2
  Sue
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Dead Outlaw
 

This is basically trading Marlena and a Scavenger for Sue and a Dead Outlaw.  Why?  Even more dakka at the cost of some survivability.  On the other hand, 3 action sue roleplays as Rusty Alyce surprisingly well, and in combination with Mad Dog and Leveticus things are amazing, while Parker runs about kills small stuff, drops scheme markers for cards, and generally does Parker Barrows stuff.

 

[Davos]

I love Parker, 10/10 would recommend Servant of Dark Powers on him, increase his projected threat range so much early game.  Dead Outlaws working to make Sue fast are *Chef's Kiss* as well

[Azahul]

6 hours ago, Davos said:

I love Parker, 10/10 would recommend Servant of Dark Powers on him, increase his projected threat range so much early game.  Dead Outlaws working to make Sue fast are *Chef's Kiss* as well

I'm honestly not a fan of a 6 point model spending two AP to give an 8 point model one AP. I'd prefer to pay an extra stone for a Scavenger and go for the Burn Out trigger. Has the added benefit of handing out Focus, which in Parker's crew in general is usually worth an extra attack with all those 2/4/5 damage tracks. Still a big investment largely for the benefit of one model, since everything else can give itself Fast, but at least you have more utility once Sue dies as Parker or others would still appreciate the Focus.

 

Of course without Wanted Criminal you're looking at substantially less card draw, but I've never personally felt that Parker needs that much help getting to where he wants to be.

[Davos]

First turn sure, its 2 AP, but on all subsequent turns you drop so many markers that its easy to get off; also just another run&gun mobile turret is always great.

I like Dark Powers for the Healing; I use Park as a beat stick/tarpit, so the heal-on-kill does a ton.  I think I leverage the + flips on the attacks over card draw

[Azahul]

All the more reason for the Scavenger at that point. Parker isn't all that impressive as a beater unless he's getting his Moderate damage somewhat consistently. I've had games where he goes the whole five turns without ever getting a kill, though admittedly since I use him as a source of cards and stones and as a tarpit that's somewhat intentional (i.e. cheating in low Tomes rather than a high card of another suit in hand happens fairly often, because doing damage to whatever beater he's engaging is secondary to keeping my cache and hand topped up). Either way though, the Scavenger is usually worth an extra AP with less set-up, even if it doesn't get the crow.

[RisingPhoenix]

Collier Revolver is a surprisingly good weapon, and I don't like the 2 damage for fast.  Otherwise I agree, scavengers are just better.

Frankly I much prefer the Leveticus version.  Parker version is good if your opponent doesn't realize it's just gonna be a Leveticus list.  Or if the table is very open and you just want to burn damage, because Fast Mad Dog/Fast Sue/Leveticus brings a large amount of shooting.  Each one of those can potentially remove a model on their own. 

Sue is the model that's probably getting engaged on.  I'd say that ideally you want Leveticus engaged on, but people have realized that that's a mugs game and only do it when they've got lantern.  Sue is hardy enough to take some hits, but looks like a key piece they can kill - and often they're right.  So I don't love just taking 2 damage on him. 

Parker is the other one who might get engaged on, but then people realize you just don't care too much if they do that.

[Azahul]

I mean, "Sue is a piece they can kill" is basically the nutshell of why I don't hire Sue. The point of the Barbaros build I presented above is that in addition to being killy enough to reliably score 2-3 Strategy points, all of its cost 7+ models are a nightmare to take down so you rarely offer up more than a singular strategy point in turn (if that).

[RisingPhoenix]

Eh, you're falling in to a trap.  8 wounds, HtK doesn't go down to one beater, at least not if you position properly.  Especially since you can put up a field to shut off triggers.  All you really care about is they're losing more resources than you do.  A truth of Malifaux is that all your shit is killable, if they're willing to spend the resources on killing it. 

They send one beater into Sue, Sue is taken down to HtK.  He goes, draws a card, empties three shots into them, they're probably near dead too.  Second beater goes into him, he dies.  Now Leveticus or Mad dog goes, and that's two beaters liberated from their mortal coil to kill one 8 stone unit. 

Wanting every unit to live is kind of a trap.  You more want to present a target that doesn't cost you much when it dies.  Like imagine you replace Sue with Barbaros.  Now they can go kill Mad Dog.  Then instead of a Sue to shoot at them, you have a Barbaros.  That's bad.

 

[Azahul]

Wanting every unit to live would be a trap if it weren't my fairly consistent lived experience with the Barbaros build. I lose the occasional model, because Red Joker damage flips happen sometimes, but it's rare and luck dependent and the end result is 0-1 casualties per game by and large. 

It's worth noting, again, that I look at Parker almost exclusively through the lens of Public Enemies (and Recover Evidence, though Hamelin is my preference there Parker works just fine). Every turn a model doesn't die is a turn your opponent doesn't score. It's why I don't like Hamelin in the Strategy, because in spite of being very killy his keyword also fold real quick and the opponent's score is never going to be less than two. Conversely Parker can rest easy, figure he'll be able to deny the opponent most of their strategy points, score 1-2 himself and basically have the game locked down. Conceding that everything in Malifaux is killable never struck me as a good route on a strategy where finding ways to not be killable puts you in such a commanding position.

I mean, let's dream an equally realistic hypothetical where an opponent puts two beaters into Barbaros instead of Sue. They take, oh, let's call it five swings in total at min 3 and probably do a total of four or five damage. They may take a similar amount of damage back thanks to Black Blood. Then Barbaros gets healed all of that damage and I get to deal with those beaters at my leisure. It doesn't become a situation of "I have Barbaros and not Sue and that's bad", it's more like "Sue in this situation would have done some damage and died, but instead I have Barbaros on near full health and have put out a similar amount of damage".

These imaginary scenarios are pointless, of course. The opponent isn't going to put a Beater into Sue until Sue has taken some chip damage from incidental attacks if you have both Sue and another beater waiting in the wings to retaliate. An opponent isn't going to dive multiple beaters onto Barbaros to do nothing and take a whole lot of Black Blood damage in return. The notable differences, of course, are that a) Barbaros is a rare choice competitively, so your opponent is unlikely to have brought answers for him, whereas b) Sue is the exact paradigm of model type that Parker's crews are full of, so odds are the opponent has some kind of response to Stat 5 shooting, and c) Barbaros has Shove Aside and Bring It and Challenge, so he can actually engineer his ideal scenario in a pinch.

[RisingPhoenix]

That's why I dislike using the Scavenger on Sue to give him fast.  It's exactly the chip damage your opponent is looking for.

In truth, there's only so long most crews can avoid engaging with a gunline that includes Leveticus, because no beater is tough enough to avoid melting from him, and no tech works against him.  Barbaros doesn't have a gun, and running him up there is difficulty, because you overrun Leveticus' range.  If people want to play around Doc Mitchell's healing, and play around running in until they do some chip damage, and try to trade damage at range with a crew that has Levi and Mad Dog... sure. 

Rather than play Barbaros, I'd just switch back to Levi and run Ashes and Dust if you really want that.  It serves much the same purpose, and is perhaps even harder to kill (and very good at denying public enemies points). 

[Azahul]

To clarify, I'm not suggesting running Barbaros in a Leveticus crew. I suggested the above build specifically because I think the combination of those models adds to a whole greater than the sum of its parts. I'm not trying to prosecute the argument that if you slap Barbaros into any crew he does better than Sue.

 

It's also worth noting that this conversation is explicitly in the context of the World Series, which is a single Master event. So throwing in Leveticus as a second Master isn't a consideration. But even without that context, I don't really want to engage with such a blizzard of possible factors. Sue outperforming Barbaros because Mad Dog and Leveticus and Parker make the opponent make suboptimal decisions is possible. Barbaros could equally outperform Sue in my list because of the support offered him there because at this point we're playing an entire game out in our heads! I agree though that the Scavenger doing chip damage to Sue is rough... but when that's the most efficient option we have it's not like the alternatives to make Sue perform are that great.

 

As for the Leveticus with Ashes and Dust vs Parker with Barbaros argument, the point I'm making isn't a 1:1 comparison. It's about the taking the whole list into consideration for the strategy (as opposed to the blow-by-blow of piece trading). My Barbaros list just doesn't have a good way for an opponent to score. Leveticus with Ashes still has 40 Stones of killable models, and Leveticus himself is by no means unkillable either. He'll probably do fine on the Strategy, he's a good Master for it, but in many cases I'd feel more confident with Parker because of the hard denial in play.

 

Ashes and Dust also don't do what Barbaros does, in that they simply lack the means to engage as many models as easily as Barbaros does and hold that spot on the board. They're a solid tank that is hard to kill and doesn't offer points, but they lack Barbaros's ability to act like a vortex and pull in models that don't want to be in melee with him. Frankly, they're an easier model to deal with for most crews.