Qi & Gong and Honeypot: How not to become Cooper's Prey

[Maogrim]

Greetings, fellow Thunder Siblings!

I am still looking to finally get into the game for real soonish, and the keywords I found most appealing are Honeypot and Qi & Gong. 

Now, the opponent who I'll probably face most often got himself some Apex.

Cooper and his hunting party seem to field some scary, long-reaching fire power, while my chosen keywords are neither very fast nor capable of summoning backup or cover. 

Which models would you field against Apex (or Seamus, or Zipp, who will be my other opponents)? I will be getting the complete keywords as well as the Silent Strike box once it's released, and am generally okay with Versatiles and OOK models, as long as it won't force me to buy too many different boxes.

Looking forward to your answers, as long as you refrain from 'lol just play gut' or 'Homeypotz and Yoko bad play McCabe!!!'.

[muraki]

Hm, you're right, Cooper could be a bit tough for either of those keywords for a few reasons.  Some advice:

In general, I don't find cooper to be 'super fast' as while some models can definitely hoof it (artemis / rex) 1/2 the time they need other models to take AP to do it (Rex's lash, vatagi on the hunt, ullr's flush them out, artemis' roar) so while a couple of models will get to you turn 1, the rest may be stuck farther back because of it.  Some of the classic TT stuff will be good as usual, but some may have weaknesses (like samura/etc not having the range that Coop has, or rex chewing through an emissary's terrifying).  Ive also been playing against Rex Cooper lists more than Model 9 lists, so what's bad/good against rex (armor is good, terrifying is bad) doesn't quite line up with model 9.

If you're a newer player (and if the opponent is also new) make sure you get a lot of terrain on the board / get used to hiding behind things, as with predatory, just hiding in concealment wont do it.  For both Thunder crews I'd try and heap on conditions to blunt Apex's attack power.  Distracted / slow / stunned all helps cut down on their efficiency.

Some Honeypot advice

• Trained Ninja is key - stopping coops gun from being able to target its the best df tech you can have.  Not sure who the best people for this upgrade will be, but figure first few games bring 1-2 copies and move it around to see where it fits best.
• WP duels are your friend - Coops team is mostly 4/5 for WP, so obeys off huggy, or come play at my table / etc will have a good chance of hitting.
• Gwen is a definite.  She can put out some decent damage, and with luck thief she can stop predatory instincts in its tracks.  Could see her holding up the rex for a while (may die, but rex won't be doing all that much in the meantime)
• Kitty will have a big target on her for early game gunshots, so make use of incorporeal to hide behind blocking terrain away from guns.
• Graves - as usual can prolly leave him home as cooper ignores cover, so bodyguard wont be happening, tho if you can get him up to rex, his ruthless would be appreciated.
• Illuminated - the shockwave could be good to burn through some cards if coop is clumped up with a vatagi + a puppy, and terrifying / regen could keep them in the fight for a while against some of his ranged models.  They can also punch pretty darn hard. 
• Tannen - will also have a big target, but if you hide in concealment + activate late you can get a double neg to deal with non-focus predatory shots.  Getting out distracted is solid on a majority of coopers models so there's defintely a place.
• Beckoner - pulling coop models towards you is a bit double edged.  Most have ways to get away (tendrils from rex, i've got your back from ullr, etc), and can do some damage up close.  But same time killing a key target early like ullr / artemis can cut down on coopers effectiveness later.
• Try and sop up as many 'good shots' on bad models as possible.  Summoning in depleted to engage rex / model 9 would keep them from being able to use AP to take out your more important models. 
• If you're going to kill runaways, kill em all with 1 guy, preferably with stealth (or a depleted or something else disposable).  Killing runaways puts a big target on you as you're not on semi-permanent adversary, so if you're going to get it, get it by killing a bunch of em.  Not sure how helpful using them as depleted summoning batteries is, but is something to try.
• Watch out for pit traps.  I haven't played bubble crews into coop that often, but even still vatagi's set up the kill can get some serious out of activation cooper shots out.  Thats in addition to the usual injured + damage the pit trap puts out.  Not sure if this is enough of a headache for you to want to bring a lotus eater to try and remove em, again prolly up to your opponent's playstyle.

[admiralvorkraft]

Standard advice to new players; focus on the game, not the fight. Score your points, deny your opponent their points. Kills are just one way of doing that. 

You do not have to invite engagement (deploying as close to your opponent as possible, etc). Look at where on the board you can score, can you get there with local model superiority? Great.

Movement tricks are the most important actions in the game. Whoever walks less tends to win.

EDIT: Both Honeypot and Qi and Gong would rather fight in their own bubble than at range. Ideally shape the game so that your opponent has to come into your crew in order to score/deny points. 

[thewrathchilde]

So this is my first post in the forum in probably 9 months or so after having been away from gaming for almost a year so take it with a grain of salt but:

 

Honeypot isn't that bad into Apex...... As mentioned above by Muraki there are some specific pieces in the crew which do a good job to help neutralize some of Apex's tricks. The down side to the match is a lot of the "normal" versatile models from Thunders aren't getting some of those same benefits making them the priority targets but that is where the Trained Ninja can also come into play and help out. 

Lynch by himself lets you put out a couple of Brilliance tokens at the start of the game on key models giving them (-) to hit when targeting a Model with "Don't Bite the Hand" (Lynch and Beckoners) with "Trump Card" giving out more Brilliance whenever an Ace is flipped. Additionally Gwyneth's "Luck Thief" can help somewhat neutralize some of the benefit from Predatory Instinct as well...combine this with concealment and it can hamper considerably. Additionally the only models that ignore cover are the Crypsis Corps and Cooper himself so taking advantage of cover where possible will also further hamper the ability of at least some models (Huntsmen & Harpooners) to be able to maximize the availability of Focus and Predatory Instincts for anything more beneficial than overcoming your counter play and use of terrain...granted this is also map dependent. Sure the Most Dangerous Game and Tracer Round trigger giving out adversary can get around some of this by giving Adversary but that still is only 1 model (TMDG) per turn and if it's something that critical (Lynch) then 1 copy of Trained Ninja takes care of that....

I do think a/the Beckoners can be  useful for the initial Brilliance, the Lure, and the ease at which they hand out more Brilliance with The Party Never Ends and the built in trigger (The Light Inside) on the Lure which gives out Brilliance. With "A Pleasant Distraction" and the Brilliance you can also stop Interacting (some) if it isn't a straight kill pool. The Lure is huge....like many crews Apex is a crew where your target priorities are critical for taking out key pieces which will then let you isolate and engage models like Cooper minimizing their affect on the game. Pairing the lures with a few good damage models that can also take advantage of the Brilliance (Huggy) that the Beckoner puts on the lured model or at least a couple of good damage models can then guarantee the kill on those key enablers. 

Access to some Versatile models or even OOK can also provide some value in the match. While Fuhatsu doesn't benefit from the Brilliance with Armor, Hard to Wound, and Juggernaut he is still pretty tough especially if you have any other healing to go along with it and with Critical Strike and Focus (if you have a source) then he can make short work of some key targets and put serious pressure on some of their models. A Samurai instead isn't too bad a choice either as it can get free Focus from Heightened Senses, is pretty survivable with Armor +2 and Juggernaut, and gives you an Armor ignoring attack if you are concerned about Model 9. 

One of the big things mentioned earlier also is the average low willpower across most of the crew. Even only having a few models like Huggy with terrifying can be a resource drain to get their attacks off and the WP exposes another weakness where Huge can Obey models out of position and allow you to use their own beaters to do damage. 

 

Overall there are a variety of tools and options Lynch has at his disposal that can certainly make it for an interesting match and certainly give the player a good chance. Really, like any other match, it comes down to making the right choices to minimize the impact of the Apex crew's strengths. I definitely would not write off Lynch in this match up and it is certainly a keyword that with practice can offer up some hard choices to the opponent and can play into a wide range of strategy/scheme pools and matches. 

[Maogrim]

Thank you so much for your contributions so far! That indeed made the situation look less bleak.

How about Tanuki? They'd offer healing, cancelation of Adversary as well as giving out Focus. And 5 Stones seem quite cheap. But on the another hand that's a Beckoner who'd offer more Brilliance, Lures and other fun stuff. 

Does anyone have insights into Youko versus Cooper? Many of her abilities have short range, but on the other hand I guess Apex would be quite vulnerable to discards. Distracted also seems useful. 

Would you go with Bill Algren, Hinamatsu, or both? Hinamatsu with Trained Ninja would surely focus Apex' attention soleley on her for a round or two. But are these 11 stones just a short-term distraction then? Bill offers Healing and a little more versatility. 

Could Kunoichi be worth it? Bulletproof sounds nice, as well as Nihilism, but they seem really squishy. Are Bunraku a better choice? Kabuki Warriors should be good.

 

[admiralvorkraft]

I don't know enough of the specifics of Qi and Gong, but have pressure is always good and Apex has a decent handful of TNs they want to hit. 

I like Bill Algren generally, but specific builds against Apex are going to depend a lot on the terrain.

[muraki]

5 hours ago, Maogrim said:

How about Tanuki? They'd offer healing, cancelation of Adversary as well as giving out Focus. And 5 Stones seem quite cheap. But on the another hand that's a Beckoner who'd offer more Brilliance, Lures and other fun stuff. 

I love tanuki in general when I'm playing TT, so if I had space in a lynch crew I don't see a reason why I wouldn't take one, specially as Lynch's crew likes the heals.  That said, I don't think they're require / required.  As for the adversary removal... it'll work for coop's adversary but not the adversary from killing runaways as that is 'cannot be removed while Cooper is in LoS'.

As for Youko into Cooper (I'll admit I'm definitely not a Youko player), I think it'll depends more on what version of cooper you're playing into + what the pool is.

For instance.  Bill has ruthless and a 3/4/4 damage track + armor, which makes him a pretty good model to go after the rex (as you're pretty much guaranteed a 3 damage hit).  But if cooper bails on the rex and brings model 9, now Bill is 1/2/2 which is not the most impressive.  Same goes for Hina, if you throw her into the Rex your hand will be destroyed with all the ruthless duels you have to get through, against 9 she's actually a bit better with a built in + and the chance for armor piercing or onslaught triggers to either ping him down or get through the armor.

I think beyond the same kind of 'bring stealth plz' statements from Lynch into Cooper there's some general things that may help qi & gong

• Youko - well to start your opponent will be playing 1 card down, so that's good for a crew who has by your side in keyword.  Serene helps a little against predatory hits, tho you'll have to watch models whose min damage is still enough to be scary.  I'd probably really try and put hand pressure on him as Cooper can feel like a 'all the cards + focus goes to x model and everyone else is top decking' master, and the fewer high cards the less efficient that engine is.  If you're risking it all and choosing suits to discard, I'd prolly go with Rams (put down on cooper, Rip and tear/tear off a bite on the rex), Crows (Maim/adversary on coop, execute on model 9, hold down on ullr).  Masks are also fine, but I'm less worried about them than heals/free hits/executes.
• Bill - as stated before, having a 'flat' damage track will help him against the terrifying/hard to wound rex. Challenge is also always solid, specially with a trigger to get focused.  Feel like he could either try and kill the Rex or other model (but lets be honest, he's slow enough it'll be more whatever comes at him, which is prolly rex)
• Hinamatsu - I like how fast she is, with rush she can really get across a table to target something that otherwise would be 'safe'.  While she's fine against model 9 with some of her triggers, I'd go after puppies with her as getting artemis / ullr off the table really helps mess up Cooper's plans.  Aggressive stance is also nice, but as cooper isn't super clumpy I'm not sure how many people you can hit at once.  She also has enough df tech that some crews 'leave her alone' which can let her scheme in the backfield / score points from stuff like symbols.
• Kabuki - these guys are solid... when they're in melee, so I'd watch them getting taken out before they can get up to melee range.  Additionally since combat finesse just prevents cheating, predatory instincts can still be used to get a + on the hit, which could be enough (with something like rex who is min 3) to give em a bad day.  They also tend to take a bit of setup before their greatsword starts doing work, tho with cooper's teams lower wps you may be able to get a lure + rip and tear off easier than i'm used to.
• Charm warders - I like chaos theory as it's a good way to either get some ping damage out or empty an opponents deck.  Chi blade + the irreducible trigger would make them a bit scarier against model 9.  That said, lantern / barrier don't really come up against coop as he's not summoning (tho you could stop the runaways demise, haha), so they may end up being knocked off the table / not doing very much compared to other matchups that use those mechanics more.
• Kunoichi - you're right disguised + bullet proof + nihilsm combine to give a decent amount of anti-cooper df tech, but they are still 6 stone models, so if they get targetted, they're going down.  They could be good to at least run down runaways (as I think you could get around the permanent adversary).
• Bunraku - the df trigger is solid tho you gotta win the duel (and against predatory crews that's not a guarantee).  Risky maneuvers is a great way to get out of engagement so you can keep scheming / etc, but cooper doesn't tend to be engaging scheme runners as he can usually just shoot em to death from a range.  I'd take em, but if they couldn't hide / make themselves feel not worth the effort, they may go down to a bite or 2.
• Geisha - honestly I've never taken em, at df 4, 4 wounds I just assume a slight breeze would take em off the table, and apex is more than a slight breeze.

Cooper lists also tend to have a lot of models (due to the 3 runaways) so you should be starting with a few pass tokens (I made a relatively elite list (9/artemis/ullr/rex/vatagi/crypsis) and still had 10 models on my side), so you should have a couple of leverageble pass tokens from the start.

I'm never quite sure how useful it is to kill runaways rather than letting them get away / letting cooper kill them.  My opponent tends to run them into me 1/2 the time so they can at least call for help + try and give me distracted before they die (so whether or not I want to, I kill em).  If you like killing runaways charm warders + kunoichis seem like better options to do it than a lot of other keywords have, and will save your big models from having that unremovable adversary. 

I'm also not quite sure how long Qi and Gong would stand up to a toe to toe engagement with Cooper as the Qi and Gong models are a bit delicate + they don't have the same bubble of terror that Honeypot has to protect themselves, so personally I'd play more of a flanking game with some models (bunraku / kunoichi / hina / emissary) and leave a smaller core (bill / kabuki / youko) to try and mess up rex/etc.  That said, whatever happens, it'll probably be a bloodbath + expect for models to be dying on both sides. 

I didn't really mention 'engage cooper' cause while good (since he can't disengage), he has a few ways to get himself out (rex's tentacles, ullr I've got your back, artemis' roar) so unless you're handling those models / keeping them away from cooper, he'll probably just pop out and be ready to shoot again.  Even if you can lock him down, Qi isn't so tarpitty that he'll feel neutralized (as he can still do decent damage with his machete against the right target).

[TheUnseemlyOne]

8 hours ago, Maogrim said:Does anyone have insights into Youko versus Cooper? Many of her abilities have short range, but on the other hand I guess Apex would be quite vulnerable to discards. Distracted also seems useful. 

Would you go with Bill Algren, Hinamatsu, or both? Hinamatsu with Trained Ninja would surely focus Apex' attention soleley on her for a round or two. But are these 11 stones just a short-term distraction then? Bill offers Healing and a little more versatility. 

 

Trained Ninja is Restricted (Living), so Hinamatsu wouldn’t be able to use it since she/it is only a construct 

[Maogrim]

2 hours ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

Trained Ninja is Restricted (Living), so Hinamatsu wouldn’t be able to use it since she/it is only a construct 

Oh, you're right. Hm. That's kind of a shame, actually. But I guess Hinamatsu with Stealth and Unimpeded would perhaps be a little too scary.

[Maogrim]

Just read over at the ES subforum that you could Obey the Malisaurus, make it use the Tail Whip and declare the Territorial trigger, so that this lovely 10 Stone model sits on its tail for a round and at least doesn't bite stuff to death. 

[Adran]

53 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

Just read over at the ES subforum that you could Obey the Malisaurus, make it use the Tail Whip and declare the Territorial trigger, so that this lovely 10 Stone model sits on its tail for a round and at least doesn't bite stuff to death. 

It's certainly possible, but even for zorsida it's  3 duels to win, and only stops it if you're not already engaged.  Obeying it to charge away from the fight probably does about as much most of the time. 

[touchdown]

On 2/14/2021 at 8:04 AM, Adran said:

It's certainly possible, but even for zorsida it's  3 duels to win, and only stops it if you're not already engaged.  Obeying it to charge away from the fight probably does about as much most of the time. 

Bayou Zoraida could have ruthless