Losing Focus...

[Ogid]

9 hours ago, LeperColony said:

I honestly do not understand what this means or its significance, so maybe you could clarify.

My point is that the game assumes the most likely outcome for an attack is min damage.  This is a mathematically derived consequence of the rules.  And since it is the most likely outcome, the resilience of models is (or at least should be) plotted against their performance against this baseline.  

Do other results happen?  Yes.  Do they matter?  Yes.  Should they be taken into consideration?  Of course.  But any starting point has to be the expected outcomes, not the outliers.

What the current iteration of focus does, along with ways to easily and efficiently proliferate it, is increase the frequency with which defending models will face higher-than-expected damage values.  

I'll rephrase. My point was that the game is designed with the idea that the player will use those tools at his disposal to make things as efficiently as possible. Spamming min damage attacks for the sake of it and hope to get lucky in the damage flip will be counterproductive versus a lot of defensive tech; so in that case is better either use another model better suited for the task, ignore that model, use something to control that model to not hurt yourself or deplete your own resources with your own actions. In that scenario is where Focused enters as a tool to bypass defensive tech; players won't always have the right model for the job at their disposal and they should have options. And there is life beyond Focused, not every game/master needs it.

Also the model using Focused matters a lot, an stat 4 or 5 2/3/4 or 1/2/3 model is not going to turn into a killing machine with Focused+1 or +2 from pulses; an stat 6 2/4/6 will make much better use of it. One of the most powerful parts of focused spamming is the extra efficiency from that double flip in those models more than the extra damage because in a Focused spamming set up the big beaters won't get a lot of it (also start the game all together is not always the best choice); and versus good and efficient Focused stacking from things like Tanukis or Mark Territory in models able to get good damage from it there are ways to remove it, control the model, protect high value target or just nuke it down.

But most of the Focused tech was already in the game when M3E was released, it's not like that wasn't intended or added after. If something like a Mobile Toolkit appeared in the game where no model able to give other Focused existed, I'd be probably shouting "Powercreep! The end is near" instead XDD; but that would be a different game with different balance anyway.

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

@Ogid even says that they believe it is on purpose since smaller crews take less time to play. Now, I think that it is unlikely that the designers made Hounds extinct from competitive games on purpose but I'm not a designer so who knows.

I don't know which kind of lists are better for competitive play tbh; it'd be interesting to look at top tier lists and compare. I'm just talking from my experience and pov.  I'd only consier a high count list in those cases if I'm absolutely sure I'll be able to play it fast enough; I don't want to annoy my adversary with a slow game if it takes longer than expected. But again that's me.

[LeperColony]

21 hours ago, Ogid said:

My point was that the game is designed with the idea that the player will use those tools at his disposal to make things as efficiently as possible.

Every ability in the game is meant to be used as efficiently as possible.  By this reasoning, nothing is overtuned because everything is a tool in the game to be employed optimally.

But the reality is that Malifaux is an engine of immense complexity and interactivity.  It's impossible to know the implications of how all the pieces tie together, and only repeated experience on a very large scale is capable of illuminating trends.

Games respond to these trends by making balance changes.  Now, you may believe Focus as is doesn't need a change, and that's a reasonable opinion to have.  But the mere fact that an ability was included and presumed to be used at maximum value doesn't mean the ability can't be above the curve.

21 hours ago, Ogid said:

Also the model using Focused matters a lot, an stat 4 or 5 2/3/4 or 1/2/3 model is not going to turn into a killing machine with Focused+1 or +2 from pulses; an stat 6 2/4/6 will make much better use of it.

It's undeniably true that the better the model, the more useful the focus as a general rule.  However, what this analysis fails to capture is the fact that you also have to look at the implications of focused attacks on the targeted model.

Five severe damage is not that rare.  Certainly not limited to top beaters.  But many lower cost models have five or less health, especially in the 4-6 (or less) stone range.  Defenses are important on all models, of course, but they are often a dividing line between useful and never-takes at this price range.  And most valued of all are those defenses that represent the prospect of increased action requirements to kill the defender.  HTK, armor, HTW, etc.  

But also, the very disproportionate value of Focus is another reason why I am in favor of a  to any duel or damage/heal flip change.  Because then Focus is of increased utility to models other than beaters.  It also makes interactions like Terrifying far less binary.  It's not just "how much ruthless do you have."  

It also improves consistency.  Why can you focus a direct fire  and not a shockwave?  They're both attacks, but one is opposed and one isn't, so you can't focus the latter. 

What are the developers' goals for Focus?  Is there a specific reason why it includes some attacks excludes others?  Is there a reason why (other an edition inertia) the  is to duel and damage?  Right now, I don't know that I have a strong grasp on what I believe the developers' intent is for why Focus works the way it does, and that is in no small part because, to me, Focus is currently serving an oversized and inconsistent role in the game.   

[Ogid]

6 hours ago, LeperColony said:

But the reality is that Malifaux is an engine of immense complexity and interactivity.  It's impossible to know the implications of how all the pieces tie together, and only repeated experience on a very large scale is capable of illuminating trends.

Games respond to these trends by making balance changes.  Now, you may believe Focus as is doesn't need a change, and that's a reasonable opinion to have.  But the mere fact that an ability was included and presumed to be used at maximum value doesn't mean the ability can't be above the curve.

And this is exactly why I'm so hesitant of supporting those big scale changes of how Focused works. In a game with so many interactions as this one, a change like that will mess up a lot of things.

Focused depending on the faction may be playing different roles in a crew:

• Enabling both high cost and low cost beaters.
• Letting shoters avoid concealment/friendly fire while still dealing meaningful damage.
• Giving extra flips to crews/factions with low card draw or in match up where the hand is attacked or is needed for other TNs
• Giving an extra safety net to low cost models.
• Letting crews without the right tools bypass defensive tech and try to overpower tanky/bubble/control crews.
• Enabling alpha strikes and ways to punish alpha strikers.

My opinion is more in that line, how hard is to take all that in count while changing it. And extra unintended interaction for letting models use Focused for extra things.

6 hours ago, LeperColony said:

But also, the very disproportionate value of Focus is another reason why I am in favor of a  to any duel or damage/heal flip change.  Because then Focus is of increased utility to models other than beaters.  It also makes interactions like Terrifying far less binary.  It's not just "how much ruthless do you have."  

It also improves consistency.  Why can you focus a direct fire  and not a shockwave?  They're both attacks, but one is opposed and one isn't, so you can't focus the latter. 

Same as above, it'll change the balance in unintended ways. A more targeted way to change how Focused works for models that really need it is abilities like Sniper; abilities that let one particular model use Focused in one particular way. I'd be cool with an errata giving some models some extra abilities to use Focused in non-standard ways for example.

 

But again, this is my opinion; I'm just trying to justify my point, not saying I'm in the right. I don't think it cannot be done, but that it's an unecessary change and very hard to do it without messing something up.

[Adran]

I think one of the issues people see with Focus is that it has had a major change between 2nd and 3rd edition (Possibly even 2). The largest is the fact it carries over from turn to turn. That makes a huge difference the ease of using it. Many people here learnt to play when Focus was almost exclusively a choice between 1 focused attack or 2 attacks. And if you weren't already engaged with a model, you couldn't focus and charge. 

(The other major change I see is that there are a lot more support models out there that give focus, which may be largely because its no longer a 1 turn thing, so they might get picked where as in previous editions, a model that gave focus was generally not a worthwhile pick because it delayed your ability to activate that model. )

So focus itself hasn't particularly got more powerful, but its opportunity cost to use and ease of access have both changed. (edit - and so the value of a lot of defensive abilities has also gone down)

I don't think its broken, but I also don't think it would break the game if it was changed. Some models would get worst and picked less, others would get better and picked more. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't think it'd break the game, but it would be awfully annoying to have a favourite crew and have it knocked out of your local meta because focus got reworked.

Revenant for example is heavily reliant on focus and is already a bottom tier crew according to many. 

So an unnecessary nerf to them is always going to feel bad.

Granted a degree of change is necessary and healthy, but I think the gaining grounds cover that pretty well. That already mixes things up quite a bit. A large-scale focus change on top of that could ruin a couple crews (and for smaller metas without many players, losing one to a nerfed crew hurts).

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think it'd break the game, but it would be awfully annoying to have a favourite crew and have it knocked out of your local meta because focus got reworked.

Revenant for example is heavily reliant on focus and is already a bottom tier crew according to many. 

So an unnecessary nerf to them is always going to feel bad.

Granted a degree of change is necessary and healthy, but I think the gaining grounds cover that pretty well. That already mixes things up quite a bit. A large-scale focus change on top of that could ruin a couple crews (and for smaller metas without many players, losing one to a nerfed crew hurts).

To a degree, the wyrd game model is to make it so your favourite crew does get knocked out of favour every so often. Gaining grounds changes will make huge differences on what crews are viable. New model releases can completely change the power level of several different models/crews. 

I've not faced Revenant much, but looking at the keyword models I'm not sure that they are that reliant on Focus. They may use it a lot at the moment, but they don't have many spiking damage tracks and they do have several models with triggers to allow them straight damage flips already (puncture). You may find that a change to focus rules actually improved the keyword in that several of its lesser used models may become more playable. (Shield bearers are a lot tankier if they are being hit by models without focus, in fact I would say all healing abilities get better if Focus is less prevalent, and Revenant have more healing than most). This is mainly me looking at it through old rules lenses, so its just a guess based on how I would have rated the crew in first or second edition rules. 

[Angelshard]

I'm on team Ogid on this one. I think changing the focus mechanic would lead to a lot of problems and just reining in the models that can spam it too efficiently would be better. 

As for the whole "the game is balanced around min dam" I don't by it. 

Min dam is only the most likely result if you discount focus, or any other abilities that give plus on the damage flip. Once you have a straight flip you're more likely to flip moderate or severe than you are to flip weak. I like to think the designers are competent enough to have included focus in their calculations when deciding damage tracks. 

The big advantadge of a high min damage is that you can discount focus or put the hurt on HtW models, slow also hurts less as you can still make an efficient attack. 

Another thing is that I don't believe a focus change would help models in the 4-7 stone bracket. A big beater could still take a model out in one activation, but the damage they could do in theirs would be much worse. 

I already believe that the est defense for those models is placement. 

Mobser hunters, for example, I keep hearing how they die all the time and are too squishy. But my experience is that if you bravado forward, shoot once with a focused attack for 4 damage and then creep back, you have a very efficient piece that deals solid damage without draining your resources.

[Da Git]

On 9/21/2020 at 7:55 PM, Adran said:

You may find that a change to focus rules actually improved the keyword in that several of its lesser used models may become more playable. (Shield bearers are a lot tankier if they are being hit by models without focus, in fact I would say all healing abilities get better if Focus is less prevalent, and Revenant have more healing than most). This is mainly me looking at it through old rules lenses, so its just a guess based on how I would have rated the crew in first or second edition rules. 

I really agree with this... I find Wanyudo and Draugr to be very squishy so a hit to focus, might give these guys a nice buff. While if Focus went to attack or damage wouldn't hit too hard as the crew gets enough other +s to hit that they can spend it on damage or get enough Focus to use it for both.

The other suggestion I found interest was for Focus used for resistance flips give + to the duel and then - to damage flips... this would make it much better defensively, which might really help those little guys.

[Undead Content]

How about Focused giving you  on opposed duel and letting you ignore one on the damage flip, thus making a straight flip just as common as it already is, but taking that bit of extra oomph away from accuracy difference of 6+?

Maybe add the reverse to using Focused defensively by letting it ignore one from the damage flip after checking the fate modifiers (so as not to limit the occurrence of straight damage flip, but still having a slight overall effect in reducing damage dealt)?

Or perhaps this would add a level of complexity to the rule for very little gain, I do not know, but this kind of an amalgamation of suggestions in this thread popped into my mind on my extended period of prolonged procrastination.