Winston Finnigan

[LeperColony]

1 hour ago, Nikshe said:

Well, Red Joker "has one suit of its owner’s choosing", so you should pick a suit first. That means you can choose not a crow.

That's why I'm asking exactly how binding "if able" is.  When you flip the RJ, you are "able" to choose a crow and declare the trigger.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

That's why I'm asking exactly how binding "if able" is.  When you flip the RJ, you are "able" to choose a crow and declare the trigger.

Technically if it goes further back than the declare trigger stage, you could make the same argument that you must cheat a crow if able.

I don't think the ability makes sense unless it only applies in the declare trigger phase.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Right, good point!  Does that mean if you flip the Red Joker you have to choose the crow?  What does "if able" mean?  Because you able to do so if you get the Red Joker, but I don't think that means you'd be forced to pick a crow from it?

I'm happy with the view that if you reach the declare trigger step and you have a crow in the final duel total, you have to declare it. Choices like the red jokers suit and cheating are all made at other steps. 

 

[BlackcladElf]

He seems really cool, but I think it's way too early to be evaluating if he's too strong or weak (probably not too weak, though...) until you see him in context of the rest of the keyword (and ideally the versatile models in the faction).  Until then, we're really thinking about him more from the perspective of whatever we've been playing with or against recently and how he compares to that, which is not the same thing at all.

[RisingPhoenix]

On 5/27/2020 at 11:42 AM, BlackcladElf said:

He seems really cool, but I think it's way too early to be evaluating if he's too strong or weak (probably not too weak, though...) until you see him in context of the rest of the keyword (and ideally the versatile models in the faction).  Until then, we're really thinking about him more from the perspective of whatever we've been playing with or against recently and how he compares to that, which is not the same thing at all.

It's totally valid to compare models across factions, because we're all playing the same game.  50 soulstones, 1 master.  It's not like the Explorer's society will be playing a 40 soulstone game.  

In Winston's case, as an Outcasts player, I pay 8 for the Midnight Stalker sometimes.  Would I instead pay 9 for versatile Winston Finnigan?  Every.  Fucking.  Time.  Because of Arcane Reservoir.  I'd pay the extra soulstone just for that (it costs 2 in Arcanists, and they take it all the time). 

And here's the thing, if the front of his card didn't have that, we'd still all think he was an excellent model.  Just pop Arcane Reservoir off, and he's still as good as Allison Dade, for instance.  Does his crew need it?  Toss it on a different model.  Because I very much think he's going in every Explorer society crew.

[Jesy Blue]

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

In Winston's case, as an Outcasts player, I pay 8 for the Midnight Stalker sometimes.  Would I instead pay 9 for versatile Winston Finnigan?  Every.  Fucking.  Time.  Because of Arcane Reservoir.  I'd pay the extra soulstone just for that (it costs 2 in Arcanists, and they take it all the time).

Where as now in Outcast (unless you're Parker) you have to pay 11 for Hannah, who only synergies with Freikorps... not even remotely worth it!

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

Where as now in Outcast (unless you're Parker) you have to pay 11 for Hannah, who only synergies with Freikorps... not even remotely worth it!

Yep, especially after they errataed her.  

Fine, if you're not supposed to get easy access to Arcane Reservoir except in specific crews that need it (or a faction, thanks Arcanists) that's the design.  But lets be consistent.  A 9 soulstone 6/6 scheme runner with really good survival tech, great mobility, and a 6 stat obey (with upside) is already a great model.  He'll probably get taken out of keyword even without the Arcane Reservoir, for certain schemes/strats.  

I hate to call power creep, but this design is way above curve. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think this is a bit of hyperbole, especially for a model that we haven't seen on the table.

But it isn't a better obey. It is an obey only if:

• You have a rams
• You do not have a crows
• You can correctly guess a suit they do not have in their hand.
• You're in melee range (rather than 12" away)

Though it is nice you can charge with it, and it is easier for him to get suits, still ruined by crows.

[touchdown]

nevermind, I was thinking of a different card

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Fine, if you're not supposed to get easy access to Arcane Reservoir except in specific crews that need it (or a faction, thanks Arcanists) that's the design.  But lets be consistent.

List of non-keyword specific Arcane Reservoir:

Outcast:  Hannah Lovelace, 10ss

Explorer's Society:  Winston Finnigan,  8ss

Bayou:  Big Brain Brim, 8ss

Arcanist:  any minion (average cost 6*+2ss for upgrade), 8ss.

It seems more like Hannah is the outlier more than Winston is OP.

 

*(27 individual non-totem Arcanists minions costs totalled 160 ÷ 27 = 5.925; rounded up to 6)

[RisingPhoenix]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think this is a bit of hyperbole, especially for a model that we haven't seen on the table.

But it isn't a better obey. It is an obey only if:

• You have a rams
• You do not have a crows
• You can correctly guess a suit they do not have in their hand.
• You're in melee range (rather than 12" away)

Though it is nice you can charge with it, and it is easier for him to get suits, still ruined by crows.

Giving a big model slow and forcing them to discard a useful suited card is also just fine, mind you.  

Lets face it, if they revealed this card and it didn't have Arcane Reservoir, everyone would still be gushing about how good it is.  Because it is that good.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Giving a big model slow and forcing them to discard a useful suited card is also just fine, mind you.  

Lets face it, if they revealed this card and it didn't have Arcane Reservoir, everyone would still be gushing about how good it is.  Because it is that good.

Well an attack action to just dish out slow is pretty weak.

One More Question on Philip and the Nanny gives out slow AND can do 1/3/4 damage with super sweet triggers, and it is still considered a pretty crap model (although I personally like it).

[RisingPhoenix]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well an attack action to just dish out slow is pretty weak.

One More Question on Philip and the Nanny gives out slow AND can do 1/3/4 damage with super sweet triggers, and it is still considered a pretty crap model (although I personally like it).

Ignoring the built-in suit is like... I dunno.  Read the card.

[LeperColony]

14 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Outcast:  Hannah Lovelace, 10ss

Explorer's Society:  Winston Finnigan,  8ss

Bayou:  Big Brain Brim, 8ss

Arcanist:  any minion (average cost 6*+2ss for upgrade), 8ss.

It seems more like Hannah is the outlier more than Winston is OP.

Big Brain Brin is one of the best models in the game.  Magical Training is one of the best "generalist" upgrades in the game, if not the best.

You don't balance new material by comparing it to the top of the curve and saying "see, it might not be better than that!"  Balancing against the top is how you get power creep.

Instead, you should balance against the middle.  And yes, of course, some things are going to end up overtuned.  But if you can see in development that you're making a Brin/MT level model, that should give you pause.

Also, remember, there's presumably six more keywords coming to Explorer's Society (assuming they have the same number of keywords as other factions).  What are the odds that Winston is the best model in the entire faction?  Probably not great, given everything else that remains unknown.

 

 

[Jesy Blue]

12 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

You don't balance new material by comparing it to the top of the curve and saying "see, it might not be better than that!"  Balancing against the top is how you get power creep.

I'm not balancing against "the best", I'm balancing against what gives Arcane Reservoir besides a Master and/or Totem.... which you purposefully left off of the quote for some reason?

[LeperColony]

20 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

I'm not balancing against "the best", I'm balancing against what gives Arcane Reservoir besides a Master and/or Totem.... which you purposefully left off of the quote for some reason?

Except that you are.  Your entire post was arguing that Winston isn't OP because BBB and MT are comparable, and that Hannah may be underpowered.

The mere fact that you're not balancing Winston against all models in all roles is meaningless.  Malifaux is all about context, so we have to talk about Winston vis-a-vis models with similar roles and capabilities.

Otherwise we could say he's balanced because he can't kill as much as Rusty Alyce.  Well, duh.  But that's not the point.

36 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

It seems more like Hannah is the outlier more than Winston is OP.

That's your statement.  And the context, again, is that Winston is fine because BBB and MT exist.  That's called balancing against the top.

Unless you believe BBB and MT aren't above the curve.  If you think those are middle curve models/upgrades, then you're wrong, but you'd at least not be balancing against the top.

15 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

List of non-keyword specific Arcane Reservoir:

...

*(27 individual non-totem Arcanists minions costs totalled 160 ÷ 27 = 5.925; rounded up to 6)

I really just grabbed what seemed to be your main argument, but perhaps you can tell me how omitting these clearly critical sentences changes your conclusion that it's more likely Hannah is underpowered than Winston is OP?

EDIT:

I'd add that Wyrd themselves provided pretty good evidence that Winston was problematic, since the hue and cry against him is what prompted them to re-open playtesting.  

So, you know, maybe there's something to it after all.

[Jesy Blue]

.... wow, that's a lot of words.

Let me get a cup of tea first.

[LeperColony]

6 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Lets face it, if they revealed this card and it didn't have Arcane Reservoir, everyone would still be gushing about how good it is.  Because it is that good.

I agree.  Without AR, he's a good 8 stone support model with sustain, top of deck sculpting, movement tricks, heals, and (though you probably don't want him in melee) an attack that gives slow and can guarantee triggers (either with his ability or stones, since he's a henchman).  

With AR, he seems like almost an auto pick in or out of keyword, into practically (if not literally) any strat/scheme pool.

[Jesy Blue]

So, after reading and rereading, I don't have a clue what you're on about.  I'll try to simplify my side, then maybe you can simplify yours.

My argument is as such: in creating a new model with Arcane Reservoir, they created a model equal to the level of the other current models with Arcane Reservoir; in the 5 (or 31 examples if you want to look at Arcanists ones individually), only Hannah does not fall within the sweet spot.

Now you....

[touchdown]

16 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

List of non-keyword specific Arcane Reservoir:

Outcast:  Hannah Lovelace, 10ss

Explorer's Society:  Winston Finnigan,  8ss

Bayou:  Big Brain Brim, 8ss

Arcanist:  any minion (average cost 6*+2ss for upgrade), 8ss.

It seems more like Hannah is the outlier more than Winston is OP.

 

*(27 individual non-totem Arcanists minions costs totalled 160 ÷ 27 = 5.925; rounded up to 6)

I feel like that Arcanist cost only makes sense if you were going to run a crew with zero minions or wanted to put different upgrades on them. Also you can easily take a steam arachnid with the upgrade for 5 stones if you just want arcane reservoir.

[LeperColony]

17 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

So, after reading and rereading, I don't have a clue what you're on about.  I'll try to simplify my side, then maybe you can simplify yours.

My argument is as such: in creating a new model with Arcane Reservoir, they created a model equal to the level of the other current models with Arcane Reservoir; in the 5 (or 31 examples if you want to look at Arcanists ones individually), only Hannah does not fall within the sweet spot.

Now you....

The other models you are saying he is equal to are among the best models in the game.  When you make new models, you should aim to make them equal to the average models in the game.  When your reference point for new models are the best current things, you get power creep.

Or, in other words, Hannah is a better reference point for a potential Winston than BBB/MT.

[Jesy Blue]

10 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I feel like that Arcanist cost only makes sense if you were going to run a crew with zero minions or wanted to put different upgrades on them. Also you can easily take a steam arachnid with the upgrade for 5 stones if you just want arcane reservoir.

I was trying to find a way to easily quantify the point cost of the upgrade... I went in assuming there were a lot of cheap minions in Arcanists, thinking the average would be lower.

I'm also bad at math, statistics, and reading comprehension, so this is in no way is a valid analysis of anything at all. 

Now watch down below, as I will begin to defend my in no way valid analysis!

9 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

The other models you are saying he is equal to are among the best models in the game.  When you make new models, you should aim to make them equal to the average models in the game.  When your reference point for new models are the best current things, you get power creep.

Or, in other words, Hannah is a better reference point for a potential Winston than BBB/MT.

I'm only looking at Arcane Reservoir.  I'm not comparing him against hooded riders or desperate mercenaries or guild hounds or Molly.  I'm looking at a very rare ability in the game compared to how to get that same area ability in the game.

I'm looking micro, you're looking macro.  Unfortunatly there is no universal scientific method that can be used for both.

[LeperColony]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

I'm only looking at Arcane Reservoir.  I'm not comparing him against hooded riders or desperate mercenaries or guild hounds or Molly. 

Not only am I not comparing him to Hooded Riders or Desperate Mercenaries or whatever else, I specifically said any such comparison would be meaningless like two posts up.

EDIT:  Turns out it was three (of my) posts ago.

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

I'm looking at a very rare ability in the game compared to how to get that same area ability in the game.

While I was looking at him and BBB/Hannah/MT more holistically than just Arcane Reservoir, even if we do it just by looking at AR, we still see a curve with BBB/MT at the top and Hannah at the bottom.

And where is Winston on this curve?  Right.  The top.

But of course, just looking at AR without the rest of the model is meaningless.   Because then the cheapest, safest AR is the best, regardless of any other concern.  Moleman with MT is 6 stone AR and can bury and stay safe forever (except in a few match ups).  That makes Moleman with MT is better than Winston?  I don't think so...

---

The reality is no matter how you slice it, Winston, when viewed either just in meaningless AR-only terms, or in context with similar models, is significantly above the curve.  He needs changes, and that need was clear enough to Wyrd that they re-opened playtesting after the response to his reveal.

[Durza]

8 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

The reality is no matter how you slice it, Winston, when viewed either just in meaningless AR-only terms, or in context with similar models, is significantly above the curve.  He needs changes, and that need was clear enough to Wyrd that they re-opened playtesting after the response to his reveal.

What makes you think that playtesting was closed? The reveal had "*Subject to change" written on it.

[LeperColony]

6 minutes ago, Durza said:

What makes you think that playtesting was closed? The reveal had "*Subject to change" written on it.

Closed and over aren't the same thing.  I never said they stopped playtesting.

Wyrd re-opened the playtest with a public call for participants.  That doesn't mean absent such a call playtesting would have stopped, or did stop.  But it does mean that they were sufficiently concerned about the response to want more eyes on the ES materials.

EDIT:  Technically, I suppose, it's possible the playtest was always "open" in that people could contact Wyrd and be added.  I don't know about that, but I do know that the call for new testers came because of the community's response to Winston.  And even if it were "open" the whole time, certainly that wasn't public knowledge or much advertised.