Euripedes first turn

[Takoa]

Hey all, so currently I'm trying to learn Euripedes because I feel he has a lot of promise, however, I'm honestly not sure how my first turn should look.

 

My list so far is basically:

Euripedes + Primordial Magic

Thoon

Gigant

Geryon + Inhuman Reflexes

Cyclops + Ancient Pack

Then either a second Geryon or Cyclops.

 

Like, I can see starting with Euripedes and throwing out an ice pillar for Geryon to charge into, and setting out some to screen, or start placing for frozen vigour procs. Outside that, activating PM to give Incorporeal to Thoon to increase his threat potential.

 

No idea what I should be doing with the rest of my crew turn one, so any help would be appreciated.

[Ogid]

mmm, Savages aren't a straightforward crew and it depends on the other crew and pool... I think you have some flexibility in the opening. I haven't got my Savages yet so maybe other player could give more curated info, but some extra ideas :

• Gigants: Shattering Shove may target friendly models; that may be used to send a model almost anywhere.
• Lyssa: Bring it is a lure with +2 to the movement, require an 8 so it's a bit expensive but if you may position a Lyssa forward (with Shattering Shove, a push or something like that), she may lure models forward (Ideally without getting hit)

Taking in count the threat of Shattering Shove, maybe I'd start with a Cyclop to create the first pilars, that way you could wait a bit until comiting Euripides. That will force the other player to be cautious (because if a model advance too fast, a pilar can be created next to that activated model and then a Geryon/Thoon/Beater or even Euripides can the thrown there). Note: if you are going to send a Savage with Shattering shove, it's better if that model is made incorporeal first to reduce the damage from the Gigant.

2 Random examples of the things Savages could do the first turn with the Shattering Shove:

• Cyclops creates 2 pilars (using old ways, one near of him, a gigant and a Lyssa and other forward); Gigant attack Lyssa (cheat a low tome to get shattering shove) and put that Lyssa in the other one, then walks. Now that Lyssa may Bring it 2 expensive models (and then she will heal that point of damage from the Gigant thanks to the Pilar)
  • Or send instead another Cyclop and you may drop the first 2 markers for Harness that first turn!
  • When doing this, mind the Gigant may charge forward around 3'' and still be in range of the model (2'' base + 1'' range).
• You wait until the end of the turn to activate Euripides, Thoon and a Gigant. Previously you had set up a Pilar near of Thoon and gave him Incorporeal. Some pesky Scheme runner leap and double walk away from your team. Euripides activates and with some mix of walks and shattering surprise end dropping a pilar near of that scheme runner. A Gigant throw thoon into it, then thoon will try to bury/kill that one.

Mind however Gigants rely in tomes for their shenanigans, you could not get the tomes you need to pull off some openings (a trick is including a doll to put adversary (Savage) in the model you are going to attack if you want to take the risk, include card draw/cicle or wait until you get a tome in the discard pile); however the other player doesn't know if you got the suits; he will have to be cautious anyway . Also mind you may use the old ways to reuse cards (double pilar with a Cyclop or double Focused shoulder rush with a Geryon for example).

I think the closest thing to a tactica we have is this thread, there is interesting info about the crew there:

[Takoa]

The only problem I have with Cyclops for pillars is that the tome isn't built in, while it is with Euripedes, and the tome is better spent on him to put out 4 pillars with real ease. I'm currently not running a Lyssa as with a gigant, there really doesn't seem to be a reason to lure when you can relent on the trigger to send your beaters where they need to be.

 

I think holding off on the Cyclops to instead heal off old ways damage is a much better route as it's very easy to get that going.

[goth]

The extra stones are for a Black Blood Shaman, obvz.  What about something like this:

Savage Shamanism (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 2
Leader:
  Euripides
Totem(s):
  Primordial Magic
Hires:
  Thoon
  Gigant
  Geryon
  Black Blood Shaman
  Cyclops
    Ancient Pact
  Cyclops 2
    Ancient Pact
References:
  Mature Nephilim

 

the idea being that a mature nephilim and a geryon are better than all your ss in an IR geryon basket that will get shot off the table anyway.  First turn the black blood shaman activates and Knifes Euripides, needs a low 😷, euripides hopefully defends with a 📖, if not cheat in a low 📖 to get hit and trigger future sight.  Pitch the card, maybe something you want to use for The Old Ways later (because luring your own models is opposed)... drop the corpse.  Black blood shaman does a fast action blasphemous ritual and relishes in blood... all models within 3” get focus and Euripides heals one.  This focus is needed for the 🔫 attacks savage bring as well as the size vulnerability.  Bonus cool because Lyssa can use corpse markers the bbs drops, if you’re struggling to find a use for these.

edit: I just now noticed all the non-⚡️ tactical actions in this crew and WOW a Changeling would be a beast, with all the unsuited casts of 5-6 and arcane reservoir.

note: I’m not sure about the lore, but is black blood more like warm blooded mammals or more like cold blooded reptiles?  Is it magical or a third thing?  You’re not allowed to take lizards in an ice crew thematically.

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, goth said:

 

note: I’m not sure about the lore, but is black blood more like warm blooded mammals or more like cold blooded reptiles?  Is it magical or a third thing?  You’re not allowed to take lizards in an ice crew thematically.

From a lore point of view I see black blood as "acid" blood. From the stories I would have said nephlim were warm blooded.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, goth said:

First turn the black blood shaman activates and Knifes Euripides, needs a low 😷, euripides hopefully defends with a 📖, if not cheat in a low 📖 to get hit and trigger future sight.  Pitch the card, maybe something you want to use for The Old Ways later (because luring your own models is opposed)... drop the corpse.

This isn't a good idea... you will be attacking yourself so you'll be discarding cards from your own control hand. And discard a card to use with Old ways (especially a good card) isn't efficient; it's always better to cheat that card first (in a damage flip or another use of that ability for example) and then use it in the next ability with old ways. In this case just relenting would be better imo.

The BBS idea is worth trying tho, with Intuition you may set up 1 mask for your BBS and this crew has a hand of 7 cards so having access to 1 or 2 masks in the first turn isn't as hard as in other crews and Focused in a crew with good Severe damage is nice. However take in count you will have a 6 Wds mature without Fly with me in turn 2; until turn 3 you won't have a "full" mature and even in that case it'd be at 8 Wds. It's like the Effigy + EoF, it's efficient SS wise at hiring but it won't pull its weight until later. You may speed the BBS grow with Vasilisa, which may also be a nice pick with how minion heavy is this crew (it may make a Cyclops perform his Frozen Runes twice per turn for example), but that's a lot of SS in OOK/Versatile models and you still need the 2 masks the first turn.

[Nagi21]

14 minutes ago, Ogid said:

This isn't a good idea... you will be attacking yourself so you'll be discarding cards from your own control hand. And discard a card to use with Old ways (especially a good card) isn't efficient; it's always better to cheat that card first (in a damage flip or another use of that ability for example) and then use it in the next ability with old ways. In this case just relenting would be better imo.

The BBS idea is worth trying tho, with Intuition you may set up 1 mask for your BBS and this crew has a hand of 7 cards so having access to 1 or 2 masks in the first turn isn't as hard as in other crews and Focused in a crew with good Severe damage is nice. However take in count you will have a 6 Wds mature without Fly with me in turn 2; until turn 3 you won't have a "full" mature and even in that case it'd be at 8 Wds. It's like the Effigy + EoF, it's efficient SS wise at hiring but it won't pull its weight until later. You may speed the BBS grow with Vasilisa, which may also be a nice pick with how minion heavy is this crew (it may make a Cyclops perform his Frozen Runes twice per turn for example), but that's a lot of SS in OOK/Versatile models and you still need the 2 masks the first turn.

I think the bonus of focus bombing wth the BBS makes the lack of a mature until later doable, it just requires a bit of forethought and can't go hammer into every single pool.  Vasi is good with a BBS but in Savage I think she's too expensive and other options are needed.

[goth]

Well yes I guess you can and should attack another living savage first turn and relent, especially with the threat of red joker bbs knife damage... I just suck at MalifauX but there is something there because a black blood shaman pulsing focus always makes me get the sensation ™️ that my crew is somehow now competitive vs a crew that would normally shoot me up and also probably has a focus spam if not summoning.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, goth said:

Well yes I guess you can and should attack another living savage first turn and relent, especially with the threat of red joker bbs knife damage... I just suck at MalifauX but there is something there because a black blood shaman pulsing focus always makes me get the sensation ™️ that my crew is somehow now competitive vs a crew that would normally shoot me up and also probably has a focus spam if not summoning.

With red joker, I believe you MAY (not must) select it.

So there should never be a case of red jokering the damage.

[Nagi21]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

With red joker, I believe you MAY (not must) select it.

So there should never be a case of red jokering the damage.

It is may yes, so the worst that could happen is 4 damage... 

That being said moderate damage on a double neg is not an uncommon occurrence, so there's some accounting for the possibility of 3 wds happening to your crew.  You may want to consider doing it to someone who has already gone and gotten shielded from frozen vigor, or something that is going to play far back like a cyclops or gigant.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

It is may yes, so the worst that could happen is 4 damage... 

That being said moderate damage on a double neg is not an uncommon occurrence, so there's some accounting for the possibility of 3 wds happening to your crew.  You may want to consider doing it to someone who has already gone and gotten shielded from frozen vigor, or something that is going to play far back like a cyclops or gigant.

Yup! From memory you'll flip no weaks ~20% of the time. So it isn't just possible, it is something that will happen pretty regularly.

[Ogid]

23 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I think the bonus of focus bombing wth the BBS makes the lack of a mature until later doable, it just requires a bit of forethought and can't go hammer into every single pool.  Vasi is good with a BBS but in Savage I think she's too expensive and other options are needed.

Yep I agree the focus makes it viable and definitely neither version are auto-takes. The good thing of Vasi + BBS is there is a double pulse in turn 1 before the models start to reposition; the second turn focused pulse will hit much less models; I'd only consider it in a pool where Vasi + a small puppet (doll or effigy) running a flank is useful; just for the double pulse in turn 1 is not worth it.

20 hours ago, goth said:

Well yes I guess you can and should attack another living savage first turn and relent, especially with the threat of red joker bbs knife damage... I just suck at MalifauX but there is something there because a black blood shaman pulsing focus always makes me get the sensation ™️ that my crew is somehow now competitive vs a crew that would normally shoot me up and also probably has a focus spam if not summoning.

As said above, Black Jocker MUST be choosen, RJ CAN be choosen. You don't have to RJ your model to death (unless you want it lol, "I'll get that corpse one way or the other! DIEE!")

The 3 damage is around 20%, 4 damage is much less, around 1% if I recall correctly (asuming fresh decks). You may use the totem to put Incorporeal in your target, the weak damage would deal no damage and moderate will only be 2, one of those may get healed by Frozen Vigor; Savages is not a bad crew to pull that off; but maybe instead of Euripides use as target a Gigant with Frozen Vigor.

About the second part...  I don't have Euripides yet so not sure about the straight combat power of the crew, take in count not every crew can go toe to toe; but Focused is a very powerful buff so that will certainly help in that department.

[Nagi21]

54 minutes ago, Ogid said:

About the second part...  I don't have Euripides yet so not sure about the straight combat power of the crew, take in count not every crew can go toe to toe; but Focused is a very powerful buff so that will certainly help in that department.

Speaking from experience, the combat power of the crew is somewhere between moderate and high, the issues being that they are not particularly tanky and they're very large targets.  Focused is very good because they need to be able to do massive damage when they get in, but even the min 3 stuff is fine.  Issues being lack of tank (vigor only goes so far as does HtK when you can see a model from across the board) and lack of mobility.  Shattering shove is nice but requires setup and isn't great as standard.  Prior to the IR change I'dve said that savage could 1v1 most other beater crews pretty well.  Afterwards... they're solidly in alpha strike territory like Nekima's crew, except trading mobility for some moderate ranged control.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

Going back to @Takoa's question, I look to bring a couple of models in Euripides crew that I don't need to get cute with.  Even if its a Gigant, which can do great tricks, I might have one on the side that is going to just flank a bit and lob rocks into the middle as needed.  Having some easy options in the crew that are just going to move x2 or move and concentrate on turn 1 will get rid of a lot of headache trying to overproduce on the first turn.

Euripides is often my first real model to go T1. Generally, we don't see T1 alpha strikes and there should be enough terrain around that my models aren't getting wrecked from across the board already.  Even more important if they are in danger, since then I want some LOS blocking pillars up.  Going with Euripides early T1 isn't bad because it gives me intuition to get a feel for what I will draw and how much of The Old Ways I'll need to push things through.  Since Euripides doesn't benefit from Frozen Vigor himself, I'll put up forward ice pillars that will be blocking T2 or later T1 for my opponent or will be in range of my models that move or move x2 so they will get the heal/shielded.  I generally create 4 pillars with him T1 using old ways, and then walk up the board a bit for T2.

If I need to bait out a couple more significant models to get an idea where my opponent wants to go then I'll use that gigant or other schemer or the Primordial Magic to give incorporeal and then move off to where I'll want incorporeal next turn before I unleash the pillars.

(I want to point out here that PM actually has great actions, even if overlooked often. While I usually hide it dashing 10" between models to give incorporeal, using the tactical action twice after Euripides or Cyclops' have placed pillars next to several models gives 2 dmg to everyone so if Euripides hasn't dealt enough dmg from MV duels, then this will be a good extra ping! The second sneaky move is charging a friendly that has shielded if you have a low tome for a free card. Not often, but I'll take 1 wound for a card most of the time.)

I have come around to Lyssa as a great runner over the Bultungin. They are super squishy but when used in terrain to hide and gain concealment they wreak havoc with their lure and stagger.

[LexLock]

Assuming your opponent's crew isn't extremely mobile, I think your goal first turn should be to yeet Euripedes up with a Gigant/Cyclops pillars and create 6 Ice Pillars using Rune-Etched Ice. This should disrupt your opponent and wear away at their hand with the move duels, hopefully reducing their ability to respond to Euripedes (who should have Incorporeal at this point anyway).

If you bring Ancient Pact you can probably spam move duels again first thing next turn, giving you roughly a dozen Ice Pillars to hem in your opponent with and a ton of chip damage from move duels.

I think Euripedes (much like Fae with underbrush) is going to be countered pretty hard by crews that can ignore his Pillars with flight/incorporeal/leaps because his crew is quite slow and relies on slowing the enemy crew in order to keep up.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

1 hour ago, LexLock said:

I think Euripedes (much like Fae with underbrush) is going to be countered pretty hard by crews that can ignore his Pillars with flight/incorporeal/leaps because his crew is quite slow and relies on slowing the enemy crew in order to keep up.

I think it does reduce their effect but I found Euripides crew has a pretty good reach even though they are base 5 with only a few movement tricks.  They all hit pretty hard so a lone scheme runner is likely to take a boulder or ice pillar to the face, even if the model can't get close to it. Most can't fail more than 2 Mv duels without being on the brink of death.