Cojo and his hard toss

[out4egos]

Cojo has toss which has a size duel.  But a trigger of 1/3/5... hard toss. Now my question is. Is the 1/3/5 flip a modified flip from the toss duel meaning pos or neg 

[Nikodemus]

'Hard Throw' is an action trigger. And rules pdf page 12 tells us this about action triggers:

Quote

Action Triggers
Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to damage).

Accuracy modifier is a game effect, so yes it will potentially give the trigger a positive, negative, or straight flip.

[out4egos]

Ive accepted that part.  Accuracy modifiers when there is a damage flip.  The toss is 2 damage from the duel.  The hard throw is a trigger.  

[out4egos]

1 minute ago, out4egos said:

Ive accepted that part.  Accuracy modifiers when there is a damage flip.  The toss is 2 damage from the duel.  The hard throw is a trigger.   Accuracy modifiers is when there is a damage flip from a duel... 

 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, out4egos said:

Ive accepted that part.  Accuracy modifiers when there is a damage flip.  The toss is 2 damage from the duel.  The hard throw is a trigger.  

"Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to damage)."

Hard Throw is an Action Trigger. It is therefore subject to all game effects on the Action, including positive and negative damage flips generated via the Accuracy Modifier

[out4egos]

Except the is no accuracy fate modifier.  The toss has a hard 2 damage... no flip... 

[out4egos]

And the damage flip from hard throw even with the timing of when resolving doesn't add the flip till after the hard 2 so it still doesn't get an accuracy modifier 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, out4egos said:

Except the is no accuracy fate modifier.  The toss has a hard 2 damage... no flip... 

Can I suggest that you re-read accuracy modifiers.

The damage flip from hard toss is a variable damage flip as a result of an opposed duel. This means it forfills the requirements for having an accuracy modifier from that duel.

 The fact that it is on a trigger at this point doesn't matter. The trigger is part of the action and so the effects of the trigger are still subject to being based on the result of the opposed duel.

 

[out4egos]

[out4egos]

The trigger in this case the damage flip comes after the hard 2. So there is no accuracy modifier 

 

[out4egos]

Since it's not modifying the damage.  The hard 2 stays the same. So the damage flip for hard toss is a new effect. Which in when resolving states comes last after the hard 2 damage is delt which means there is no  accuracy modifier.  

[Kharnage]

20 minutes ago, out4egos said:

Since it's not modifying the damage.  The hard 2 stays the same. So the damage flip for hard toss is a new effect. Which in when resolving states comes last after the hard 2 damage is delt which means there is no  accuracy modifier.  

I don't think you understand. It doesn't modify only the damage from the action itself, it modifies all damage flips from the action, which includes triggers. This includes the hard toss trigger, even though the "hard 2" from the action isn't modified. 
For example, consider the Guild Riflemen's Ricochet Trigger: 

Ricochet: Choose another model within 3" of the target. That model suffers 1/2/4 damage, which cannot be Cheated.

This is a separate damage flip from the 2/3/5 that the Clockwork Rifle damage track has, but BOTH the 2/3/5 and the 1/2/4 are modified by the accuracy modifier of the duel (or Focus, for that matter)
For this same reason, the Hard Toss trigger is also modified by accuracy modifiers, hard to wound, focus, etc. 

[SerZaka]

I don't wanna be the bad guy here , but this thread seems more like someone had a bad fight with the opponent during the last match about this and now he is here claiming to be right while the rest of the world just says he is wrong 😅 sorry , I couldn't resist 

[out4egos]

No this hasn't happened to me.  Though I am a Marcus player.  Someone posted it on fb. I wanted to get opinions on a different forum.  

[out4egos]

3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I don't think you understand. It doesn't modify only the damage from the action itself, it modifies all damage flips from the action, which includes triggers. This includes the hard toss trigger, even though the "hard 2" from the action isn't modified. 
For example, consider the Guild Riflemen's Ricochet Trigger: 

Ricochet: Choose another model within 3" of the target. That model suffers 1/2/4 damage, which cannot be Cheated.

This is a separate damage flip from the 2/3/5 that the Clockwork Rifle damage track has, but BOTH the 2/3/5 and the 1/2/4 are modified by the accuracy modifier of the duel (or Focus, for that matter)
For this same reason, the Hard Toss trigger is also modified by accuracy modifiers, hard to wound, focus, etc. 

The riflemans attack has a damage flip before the trigger.  So accuracy modifiers kick in. 

[out4egos]

Here's the stat card. 

[out4egos]

Ive searched nearly all the cards ive yet to find an action that gives hard damage then has a trigger that give damage flip... that also has while resolvong

[Vatic]

I don't think it matters that the base toss action doesn't have a variable damage flip. The opposed duel to get the action off still generates an accuracy fate modifier result, which applies to any damage flips on the action or its triggers. 

 

Lets say instead there was an attack action that did absolutely nothing, but with a trigger to do 1/2/3. The attack action still generates a fate modifier. The trigger is still a variable flip caused by the action so uses the fate modifier. 

[out4egos]

Find me one example and im in

[Ogid]

For what's worth, I also think this works like described in this thread. The accuracy modifier say "...occur when there is a variable flip (often a damage flip) as the result of an opposed duel"

It doesn't exclude triggers or say it'd only apply to the first value found in the ability. The "when resolving" trigger resolves at the same time than the main text, so it works like if it'd add extra text to the end of the ability; there is no difference between damage printed in the text of the ability and one gained from a "when resolving" trigger.

The "After resolving/succeeding" one is a bit more tricky because at that point the ability has already ended, but as it's specifically included in "action triggers" (pg12) that "...are subject to all game effects that affect the action..." I'd say the accuracy also apply there.

49 minutes ago, out4egos said:

Find me one example and im in

Not sure if there is an specific example like that, but some close enough: Big Brain Brin has sober up with no damage but with a "My Loyal Servant" trigger that should get the modifier and there are some journalist abilities that deal no damage by default but it has a damage trigger if the target is engaged.

[SerZaka]

54 minutes ago, out4egos said:

Find me one example and im in

Pneumatic Toss of the Rail Worker

[out4egos]

I'm in thanks guys

[out4egos]

Hey sorry again guys.   I got so cought up in the accuracy modifier saying damage flips.. I didn't realise that was an example.  not only... and now knowing it's a passive thing. ...