Modifiers to duel totals after cheating

[katadder]

Ok this came up in another question.

A duel works by both flip a card and add stats to total(step B), then cheat (step C), then work out final total by adding modifiers (step D).

By this all modifiers to duels such as chi, fortify the spirit, pursue, bigger they are, nice shot dear would come in after cheating RAW. 

Is this correct? I know cards override rulebook but nothing on the cards I can see say they override it so does that mean yan lo has to go into a duel with his stat 3 or 4 to decide who cheats 1st and then add his +3 after?

Mostly it wont matter or change cheating order due to modifiers of generally 1 but for yan lo or chi it can matter. Is this RAI or an oversight?

[santaclaws01]

There's a difference between things modifying the duel total and things modifying the final duel total. The Jackalope for example changes its final duel total.

[Mycellanious]

In Step B we determine "current duel total" however this process is described as "Players add their stat, the value of the flipped card, and any suits." So technically, duel modifiers and not added to the "current duel total" which is what is used to cheat fate. However, I am confident that this is an oversight. 

[santaclaws01]

11 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

In Step B we determine "current duel total" however this process is described as "Players add their stat, the value of the flipped card, and any suits." So technically, duel modifiers and not added to the "current duel total" which is what is used to cheat fate. However, I am confident that this is an oversight. 

Step C doesn't say to use the duel total from step B.

[Mycellanious]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Step C doesn't say to use the duel total from step B.

You are joking right. Its pretty clear that the duel total we calculate is what we are supposed to use to determine who cheats. This is why we must "inform our opponent. But hey, Step C doesnt tell us to calculate our duel total or how it wants us to do it, so I guess we just cant play the game
 

[santaclaws01]

56 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

You are joking right. Its pretty clear that the duel total we calculate is what we are supposed to use to determine who cheats. This is why we must "inform our opponent. But hey, Step C doesnt tell us to calculate our duel total or how it wants us to do it, so I guess we just cant play the game
 

It not stating that the duel total in Step C has to be the same as the value arrived at in step B allows for the value to be modified inbetween step B and step C, which is the value that step C will use.

[Mycellanious]

16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

It not stating that the duel total in Step C has to be the same as the value arrived at in step B allows for the value to be modified inbetween step B and step C, which is the value that step C will use.

where are you getting this from exactly? The best I can see is that we have 3 terms, "current duel total" "duel total" and "final duel total"

Chi says "increase its DUEL TOTAL" so I could see the argument for that affecting cheating, but Press the Advantage says "reduce its final duel total" which I guess makes sense because it occurs after cheating. Railworkers an the Jackalope however say they increase their FINAL duel total, so does that affect cheating? 

[santaclaws01]

33 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

where are you getting this from exactly? The best I can see is that we have 3 terms, "current duel total" "duel total" and "final duel total"

Chi says "increase its DUEL TOTAL" so I could see the argument for that affecting cheating, but Press the Advantage says "reduce its final duel total" which I guess makes sense because it occurs after cheating. Railworkers an the Jackalope however say they increase their FINAL duel total, so does that affect cheating? 

Things that say they affect the duel total will affect the duel total. Things that say they affect the final duel total will only affect the final duel total.

 

[Tapdancer]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Things that say they affect the duel total will affect the duel total. Things that say they affect the final duel total will only affect the final duel total.

 

Couldn't agree more, this constant trying to find minor wording issues and dress them up an equally legitimate way of reading the rules is tiresome.

[Ogid]

33 minutes ago, Tapdancer said:

Couldn't agree more, this constant trying to find minor wording issues and dress them up an equally legitimate way of reading the rules is tiresome

That's a really bad way way to put it... I don't think anyone is trying to purposely mess things up. Sometimes rules could be clearer and all that feedback is useful to make them better over time, and it's much better that those issues are discussed here than in the middle of a game.

It could be as @santaclaws01 is defending, but then not indicating in step B there are modifiers that could modify the duel at that point and point them in step D and expect player realice in other abilities they wrote final duel total instead of duel total isn't the best way to do it to make it clear.

[santaclaws01]

15 minutes ago, Ogid said:

That's a really bad way way to put it... I don't think anyone is trying to purposely mess things up. Sometimes rules could be clearer and all that feedback is useful to make them better over time, and it's much better that those issues are discussed here than in the middle of a game.

It could be as @santaclaws01 is defending, but then not indicating in step B there are modifiers that could modify the duel at that point and point them in step D and expect player realice in other abilities they wrote final duel total instead of duel total isn't the best way to do it to make it clear.

Yeah, definitely seems like a case of everyone plays it a certain way in the beta and nobody ever thought to explicitly spell it out in the rules.

[Tapdancer]

This particular point and points like this come up across / are pushed on multiple platforms.  They also end up coming up in tournament games, often when a player can squeeze some advantage out of it.  I’ve conceded points in game when I’ve had neither the time or energy to start trawling through rules to argue the finer points of the English language.  More often than not these debates just create an alleged level of uncertainty with the inevitable it needs an faq.  If this was a purely esoteric debate then they’d be no issue but it isn’t so it effect can be tiresome. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Tapdancer said:

This particular point and points like this come up across / are pushed on multiple platforms.  They also end up coming up in tournament games, often when a player can squeeze some advantage out of it.  I’ve conceded points in game when I’ve had neither the time or energy to start trawling through rules to argue the finer points of the English language.  More often than not these debates just create an alleged level of uncertainty with the inevitable it needs an faq.  If this was a purely esoteric debate then they’d be no issue but it isn’t so it effect can be tiresome. 

I think the big way to answer this is to foster a spirit of clean play at your tournaments. We are pretty big on clean play, and letting the TO call the shots if there is any ambiguity.

There have been some moments when both sides are tired, but everyone has resolved them well after.

I agree perfect rules that are templated precisely (like Magic for example) could be useful, but you can play good games without them.

It'd be different with major prizes on the line, so I should note our tournaments only have like $50 for the top prize so far.

[Ogid]

Don't get me wrong, malicious rules lawyering is tiresome and it does ruin games; but I don't think all rules argument have that intention. Those rules arguments are going to show up in tournaments anyway, it's better if they show up here before so TOs know which are the current issues and how they want to handle them instead of being surprised by them (and it also help to give them visibility so they can be fixed in an errata/FAQ).

If a player is going to use a crew with some obscure interaction right now, it's always better if they talk beforehand with the TOs to make sure it will be allowed (and it could also be a good idea to point them to the other player after the crews have been revealed).

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

where are you getting this from exactly? The best I can see is that we have 3 terms, "current duel total" "duel total" and "final duel total"

Chi says "increase its DUEL TOTAL" so I could see the argument for that affecting cheating, but Press the Advantage says "reduce its final duel total" which I guess makes sense because it occurs after cheating. Railworkers an the Jackalope however say they increase their FINAL duel total, so does that affect cheating? 

There is clearly a difference between a duel total and the final duel total (Which is calculated, and then may be altered so gets recalculated again, so the step called "Determine Final duel total" determines a duel total which is not the actual final duel total, but is still called a final duel total.

If you read through the steps of a duel then it is obvious that things which will affect the final duel total WILL NOT have any affect on the order of cheating because the cheating has all occurred before you determine the final duel total.

 

[Tapdancer]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

There is clearly a difference between a duel total and the final duel total (Which is calculated, and then may be altered so gets recalculated again, so the step called "Determine Final duel total" determines a duel total which is not the actual final duel total, but is still called a final duel total.

If you read through the steps of a duel then it is obvious that things which will affect the final duel total WILL NOT have any affect on the order of cheating because the cheating has all occurred before you determine the final duel total.

 

This is my issue.  That line of logic is fine and without issue when applied to abilities that specifically affect final duel totals.  The issue being pushed is that because there is no reference to modifiers when determining current duel total at the cheating stage in the rules manuals then all abilities which modify duel totals have to be treated as if they say final duel total even if they say they simply say affect duel totals, even though, in the case of Chi, you are being required to choose to apply an ability at that the current duel stage of the process . It is a corner case issue for Shenlong, it is a mess for Yan Lo.

[katadder]

it does only happen rarely as not every duel gets within 1 or even 2 of each other but it would be nice again for clarification on this subject.

I can see it from both sides and have been playing it the majority way, but just because majority interpret something one way doesnt mean its the correct way. I would hope I am always playing something the correct way but until someone points out a possible alternate way of doing something it isnt usually an issue.

out of all the modifiers I am unsure how many say final duel total, but as said within the rules the only place that mentions modifiers is step D (or 4 on the big detailed timing chart which is less detailed) which is why I put this question up here to see what people think and if it changes their ideas?

has certainly made me think, but clarification would be nice.