Healing

[out4egos]

Lelu lelitu hayreddin... can someone help me figure this breaking loop out.  Engen if one dies but the other is healed does it really die.,?

[santaclaws01]

Lelu or Lilitu takes damage. Step 5 they resolve black blood. In between step 5 and 6 Revitilizing Ichor resolves and heals one of them, which then thanks to Twined Soul causes the first to heal. Go to step 6, they're at 1 Health minimum, no death.

[Maniacal_cackle]

There is a discussion on the rule forums about it. I don't think it works. There is no official answer until an FAQ.

[Ogid]

Some timings are hard to figure out without further info; it depends on how some rules are read... I guess this will get a FAQ/those timing rules will get clarified eventually.

I'll leave the link to that thread here so you can make up your own mind (the original question was different, but it was discused there):

[Adran]

I thought the loop was obvious how it worked as long as they were both wounded, with no problems, and the rules question was based on trying to heal a model on full wounds, does it heal?

( although I had thought that even the maniacal chackle timing would do it , but I suppose you have not tried to damage/heal one until the other one is already dead. )

[Maniacal_cackle]

To try to summarise my view (ignoring other black blood shenanigans). Although doing this from memory on my phone, so hopefully I get it right.

If you hit a Lelu and it splashes black blood onto a Lilitu, there does not appear to be a timing point that causes the Lilitu to heal as far as I can see.

If Hayreddin said "when a model ignores the damage, it heals" then there'd be a strong case that the combo works. Since it says "after a model ignores damage", then the effect presumably has to wait until either everything else is resolved (page 34, after effects and sequential timing) or a rule specifically calls for it being resolved.

The Lelu heals as a result of the Lilitu healing. If nothing causes the Lilitu to heal, there is no heal generated for the Lelu. Thus when you get to 6A of the Lelu, or 5 of the Lelu, or any of the Lelu's steps, there is no heal available.

Step 5 of damage timing is after damaging, step 6 is for heal effects on the Lelu... Nothing in there heals the Lilitu as far as I can see. So the Lilitu should heal after the Lelu is dead... At which point it can heal any Lelu still on the table.

[Ogid]

The problem is more the timing of chained healing in the middle of the resolution of the damage taking in count Hayreddin aura. The scenario would be both twins damaged, near of each other (less than 1'') and affected by Hayreddin aura. Then one attack bring one of them to 0 Wds but black blood affect the other one and that trigger the healing from Hhayreddin aura that is also transfered to the attacked one.

Depending on how the secuential effect rule is read, the healing effect will be resolved immediately (which will heal the twins before the step 6 so they won't be killed) or will be delayed until the damage is resolved (in which case the attacked twin could die before getting healed). I've seen people defending both ways to resolve it.

As you said the counterplay is not damaging both, displace one of them/Hayreddin before attacking or charge in a way that the LoS with Hayreddin is blocked... and it also require 23SS worth of model quite near of each other. It's far from being easy to pull off.

[out4egos]

I thought to counter this by giving one if them inhuman reflexes.  In the off chance I grow one

[Nagi21]

Part of the argument is also whether the definition of step 6a, specifically the fact that it says "any" healing effects, and not just ones generated off the affected model, in addition to the unclear timing of things.

[Adran]

The 6a questions don't ever come up.

You damage lelu, it goes through the damage steps. In step 5 you resolve the after damaging lelu effects, which include his black blood. the black blood damages lelitu, who instead of being damaged heals 1, which in turn will heal Lelu. by the end of step 5 there are no models on 0 wounds so you don't need to go to step 6.

Alternatively, if you are following the Maniacal Cackle view, you damage lelu. In step 5 you don't resolve black blood yet. Lelu is killed and there is no healing effect to  save him, he is removed. You then go and deal with his black blood.

I can't see a rules position that means healing is "from death".  Whilst the rules aren't always clear, a lot of them are a lot clearer than the questions on this forum would suggest.  We are very good at managing to confuse the issue on these forums.

 

The  question is entirely based on "does black blood resolve in step 5". if it does, then Lelu is healed and alive. If it doesn't then Lelu is dead. I'm firmly in the camp that step 5 telling us to resolve effects here means it does interrupt the sequence and lelu lives. Maniacal Cackle is the camp that sequential timing rules overrule this and so Lelu is dead.  

Its a while since it was discussed but the majority of the forum that were in the discussion disagree with Maniacal Cackles timing rules (I can't remember anyone else agreeing with them, but there might have been some)

 

You can probably work out which camp you are in by doing a few actions in the game and seeing which version you use. 99.9% of the time it makes no difference, there are a few cases where it does (often involving model death but not exclusively).  Both lead to fun games of Malifaux as long as you are consistent in how you read them. And most of the time you can play someone and not have those few differences crop up.  Should you be planning on playing Lelu, Lilitu and Hyridden then its worth chatting through this interaction before hand to show how it works. (A good idea regardless because its a strange interaction either way 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, Adran said:

The 6a questions don't ever come up.

You damage lelu, it goes through the damage steps. In step 5 you resolve the after damaging lelu effects, which include his black blood. the black blood damages lelitu, who instead of being damaged heals 1, which in turn will heal Lelu. by the end of step 5 there are no models on 0 wounds so you don't need to go to step 6.

Alternatively, if you are following the Maniacal Cackle view, you damage lelu. In step 5 you don't resolve black blood yet. Lelu is killed and there is no healing effect to  save him, he is removed. You then go and deal with his black blood.

This is not a correct summary of my position on this one.

Even if you resolve black blood damage at step 5, that does not mean you resolve Hayreddin's heal aura, which states:

Quote

After a model ignores damage from black blood, it heals 1.

Which would yield:

• Black blood damage happens at step 5.
• Nearby models take 1 damage (such as a Crooligan).
• Lilitu ignores the one damage.
• This queues a heal effect on Lilitu (to be resolved later).
• Lelu dies at step 6
• Lilitu heal resolves.

Note that it doesn't say when it ignores damage, it heals 1. Nor does it involve an instead. It says after it ignores damage.

So (assuming) damage is fully resolved at step 5, the heal still has no reason to resolve at step 5.

[Maniacal_cackle]

It all gets confusing as there are at least 3 interpretations of black blood timing that make some degree of sense to me, so any conversation around the ability is going to need a lot of context.

Long story short, probably easiest to resolve it with your local playgroup until an FAQ arrives. But hopefully all this helps!

[Nagi21]

20 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It all gets confusing as there are at least 3 interpretations of black blood timing that make some degree of sense to me, so any conversation around the ability is going to need a lot of context.

Long story short, probably easiest to resolve it with your local playgroup until an FAQ arrives. But hopefully all this helps!

Yep my meta has an ongoing living FAQ for stuff like this... which started 3 months ago, since FAQs don't take... y'know... forever to come out...