Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[solkan]

34 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

Honestly collodi is fully absurd. I'm surprised tournaments near you allow DMH and aren't totally dominated by the puppet crew. Between collodi's insane efficiency and hiring pool he should be totally oppressive. Never mind the bonker efficient summoning, he's also the best obey master, and one of the most defensive masters, and he buffs his crew/defuffs enemy models. Who needs to waste AP summoning stritched when you can "obey" your coryphee to charge and attack at a [+] with great triggers, or obey the enemy model while also doing 1/2/3 damage and slow with no Tn? Seriously, if you want to dominate your meta in a very un-fun way start playing the puppets

If Collodi uses Puppetmaster on a model and has that model Charge, 'it receives a to that Action's duel (if any)" doesn't carry over to the melee attack generated by the Charge.  Fate modifiers on generated actions aren't contagious, and M3E doesn't do nested action resolution like M2E did, at least in part so that fate modifiers can't be contagious like that.

He can use Puppetmaster to make the Coryphee attack directly with a and the Coryphee will have great triggers to use that with, but the Charge scenario doesn't work.

 

[Math Mathonwy]

I once again face some Stitched last weekend. My Dreamer opponent had a super elite crew with minimal Lucid Dreams but Stitched still always had a face card to use for GYL. Also, since they are summoned into BtB I really don't understand why people keep talking about their average mobility being a super serious weakness.

And the most frustrating part about them is their durability. I had Mah ready to put the beatdown on one but decided against it as it was quite likely that she wouldn't be able to handle one even with her full three AP due to their high Def and Armor. And even if she did, getting three Poison in the process seemed like a bad result especially considering that it was a Summon that had cost the opponent one good card and a single AP and that would be back next turn at full health again if killed. So she went scheming instead and left the Stitched to trivially kill BBB whose defenses are useless against them.

I would drop their Df to 5 or even 4 and remove their Armor. They would still be a super formidable damage dealer that Dreamer apparently requires (though having access to plenty of min3 beaters) but they would be far less tanky. Alternatively keep the Armor but have them suffer three wounds when Summoned (this would keep them as a possible hire).

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Math Mathonwy, the poison definitely does seem over the top to me, since it can really punish you for taking down the model with a few attacks.

Did you end up losing that game?

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Math Mathonwy, the poison definitely does seem over the top to me, since it can really punish you for taking down the model with a few attacks.

Did you end up losing that game?

It ended in a draw but my opponent had never faced Mah (or Roosters or SS Miners) before.

[Ogid]

50 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I once again face some Stitched last weekend. My Dreamer opponent had a super elite crew with minimal Lucid Dreams but Stitched still always had a face card to use for GYL. Also, since they are summoned into BtB I really don't understand why people keep talking about their average mobility being a super serious weakness.

And the most frustrating part about them is their durability. I had Mah ready to put the beatdown on one but decided against it as it was quite likely that she wouldn't be able to handle one even with her full three AP due to their high Def and Armor. And even if she did, getting three Poison in the process seemed like a bad result especially considering that it was a Summon that had cost the opponent one good card and a single AP and that would be back next turn at full health again if killed. So she went scheming instead and left the Stitched to trivially kill BBB whose defenses are useless against them.

I would drop their Df to 5 or even 4 and remove their Armor. They would still be a super formidable damage dealer that Dreamer apparently requires (though having access to plenty of min3 beaters) but they would be far less tanky. Alternatively keep the Armor but have them suffer three wounds when Summoned (this would keep them as a possible hire).

The only one that can summon them in B2B is Dreamer, which is true that is ideal for stitched. When summoned by WW/Vasilisa or when they are hired, they don't have that kind of mobility. So at that point the question is if Nightmare (or second master dreamer) is overperforming thanks to that, more than how good stitcheds are. Now imagine than instead of stitched you get an offensive summon from other faction, would these be disposable with 1 or 2 AP from the Master like that?

Part of the skillset of this game is learning how to deal with different models. A model with Armor+1 and Bloated Stench holds well versus that kind of spamming attacks. Focused attacks will be much more effective (and taking in count Dreamer has a lot of Terrifying, the Inferiority Complex upgrade give that with also Ruthless; Bayou may get that focused quite easily). Mah stonning for critical strike and using Focused will deal (taking in count Armor) 3/4/5 damage, 4/5/6 if you may flip/cheat a ram (so it's possible to even one-shot him) or if Mah use a knock Aside into one of her traps she will deal 1 damage (and Injured), so again 3/4/5 damage; which could leave the stitched into a position where if it makes an action or is pushed, he will die (and knock aside could also be used to put the stitched far away from BBB to prevent a double GYL). Spamming attacks versus him is like the worst posible way to try to deal with him. BBB is a henchman, so he may use SS to reduce the damage and killing him require 2 GYL with moderate or severe damage, so it's not easy or reliable to do.

I don't know what to think when I read these kind of proposed nerfs... it sounds more like venting than as a serious suggestion.

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

The only one that can summon them in B2B is Dreamer, which is true that is ideal for stitched. When summoned by WW/Vasilisa or when they are hired, they don't have that kind of mobility. So at that point the question is if Nightmare (or second master dreamer) is overperforming thanks to that, more than how good stitcheds are. Now imagine than instead of stitched you get an offensive summon from other faction, would these be disposable with 1 or 2 AP from the Master like that?

WW and Vasilisa summon from Scrap which is also often quite centrally placed (not to mention the extra mobility Vasilisa can give). But in general the whole idea that a Mv5 model (with no special movement restrictions) with a 6" range is somehow ungodly slow is kinda silly to me - it's average and Neverborn in general have quite a nice toolbox for extra maneuverability.

As for the second point, Mah is a melee Master and in general is pretty good at removing stuff massive Armor notwithstanding. Offensive Summons, aside from the very high-end stuff like Jorogumo, are usually something I'm happy trying to remove with her if needed. Are you thinking of some specific 6SS Summoned model that would prove as difficult (or more difficult) to remove than a Stitched?

Quote

Part of the skillset of this game is learning how to deal with different models. A model with Armor+1 and Bloated Stench holds well versus that kind of spamming attacks. Focused attacks will be much more effective (and taking in count Dreamer has a lot of Terrifying, the Inferiority Complex upgrade give that with also Ruthless; Bayou may get that focused quite easily). Mah stonning for critical strike and using Focused will deal (taking in count Armor) 3/4/5 damage, 4/5/6 if you may flip/cheat a ram (so it's possible to even one-shot him) or if Mah use a knock Aside into one of her traps she will deal 1 damage (and Injured), so again 3/4/5 damage; which could leave the stitched into a position where if it makes an action or is pushed, he will die (and knock aside could also be used to put the stitched far away from BBB to prevent a double GYL). Spamming attacks versus him is like the worst posible way to try to deal with him. BBB is a henchman, so he may use SS to reduce the damage and killing him require 2 GYL with moderate or severe damage, so it's not easy or reliable to do.

I appreciate the quick lesson in how Mah works but I've played two tournaments with her (with no games lost) and numerous friendly games so feel like I have a pretty good handle on her.

How many times have you used that advice to one-round a Stitched with Mah, out of interest? Because this kinda seems like theorycraft with infinite Stones available and a hand full of Kings and Queens that have no other use (against a crew with tons of Terrifying stuff, no less)? Df 6 coupled with deck pruning is a very powerful defensive ability in and of itself.

Quote

I don't know what to think when I read these kind of proposed nerfs... it sounds more like venting than as a serious suggestion.

I have also used Stitcheds with Collodi and Zoraida (have yet to use Dreamer in M3e) and their durability has always been a complete mystery to me and seemed totally unwarranted.

I have to say that I find it a bit sad that a serious suggestion is dismissed out of hand as venting.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Math Mathonwy
the original was needlessly snarky

[Kharnage]

51 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I have to say that I find it a bit sad that a serious suggestion is dismissed out of hand as venting.

It's at least the second time a demonstrably competent player has gone "having fought with and against Stitched, I think they're too good." and he's responded basically to the effect of "but that must be a you-problem and not a stitched-problem."

[Ogid]

There are a lot of points coming again and again that I don't want to adress one more time, but I've been seen a lot of skewed examples kind of "This happens, then some questionable decisions involving models with no damage reduction and no SS left, then stitched nails all his GYL... so he is clearly OP!", that's why I answered.

I don't doubt about your skill as players, but some of the examples were unfortunate at best and malicious at worst.

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I have to say that I find it a bit sad that a serious suggestion is dismissed out of hand as venting.

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

It's at least the second time a demonstrably competent player has gone "having fought with and against Stitched, I think they're too good." and he's responded basically to the effect of "but that must be a you-problem and not a stitched-problem."

I'm sorry if you undersand that but that's now what I meant. A serious suggestion is saying "maybe the Df5 would be enough" or "maybe after unbury we should prevent double GYL because it seems hard to react"; but saying "Df4 and no armor" can't be serious, so venting is the kindest explanation I can think off... or do you really think Df4 and no armor would leave a playable model?

For the record, my opinion is he is a good model with strong points and weaknesses that isn't all over the faction and whose keywords aren't dominating, so he seems fine. I'm not claiming he is perfectly balanced, but there are a lot of models that should be nerfed before considering touching him that get much less hate than this one, which combines poorly with me being easily jebaited into these kind of threads. But I said that before:

On 12/5/2019 at 8:55 PM, Ogid said:

IDK, I wish there were a way to get more reliable data. I'm sure they aren't as bad as their reputation, however I can't claim they (or the nightmare keyword) are perfectly balanced; it could be his keyword is overperforming (and they are getting the blame of the entire keyword for how rare is having a 6SS minion dealing that kind of damage) or they are newbie stompers atracting a lot of hate ("I'm just going to casualy walk my incorporeal, serene countereance model near of that shitty 6SS minion, what could go wrong?")

I just love to discuss so sometimes I get trapped in this kind of endless threads, so I'm probably guilty of some of these threads . I guess Wyrd should be doing their own tests and keeping an eye in the performance in events, so if they (or the keyword) are too good, it'd get nerfbated eventualy.

Different folks, different experiences; there is nothing wrong with disagreeing about it.

[Sharp_GT]

23 hours ago, solkan said:

He can use Puppetmaster to make the Coryphee attack directly with a and the Coryphee will have great triggers to use that with, but the Charge scenario doesn't work.

ah yeah, forgot that works that way. Still, I stand by collodi being S+ tier

9 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It ended in a draw but my opponent had never faced Mah (or Roosters or SS Miners) before.

I'll bet your dreamer opponant was frustrated with your whole crew having focused and 3ap the whole game

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, Sharp_GT said:

I'll bet your dreamer opponant was frustrated with your whole crew having focused and 3ap the whole game

Oh, for sure! And I'm all for nerfing both Roosters and SS Miners, as well, as they are absolutely bonkers. And Mah giving your crew 24 AP worth of Concentration Actions is certainly kinda stupid as well (but for Masters it's a bit different).

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Oh, for sure! And I'm all for nerfing both Roosters and SS Miners, as well, as they are absolutely bonkers. And Mah giving your crew 24 AP worth of Concentration Actions is certainly kinda stupid as well (but for Masters it's a bit different).

I think a lot of it comes down to just you being more nerf happy than I am for instance. I'm very sceptical of nerfs myself, since people invest so much time and money into each model.

Also one of the things I love about Malifaux is every crew does something that feels 'broken.'

One thing I note about your game is that Mah just runs off and schemes when faced by Stitched, which higlights one of my problems with them/reasons I don't spam them. To some degree, you can just dance around them and complete schemes, and they're not even that potent a threat until turns 3 and onwards. They also die hilariously to things like Jaakuna Ubume's aura.

EDIT: One thing though is I totally agree GYL should be an attack action. It'd be pretty easy to rework without losing the feel of it IMO. I don't like things like GYL and Shenlong's 'cost' of moving that bypass a lot of the balancing rules.

[Math Mathonwy]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think a lot of it comes down to just you being more nerf happy than I am for instance. I'm very sceptical of nerfs myself, since people invest so much time and money into each model.

Also one of the things I love about Malifaux is every crew does something that feels 'broken.'

One thing I note about your game is that Mah just runs off and schemes when faced by Stitched, which higlights one of my problems with them/reasons I don't spam them. To some degree, you can just dance around them and complete schemes, and they're not even that potent a threat until turns 3 and onwards. They also die hilariously to things like Jaakuna Ubume's aura.

I loved how they did things in the tail end of M2e where they nerfed the problematic models.

I guess it's a toss up between buffing 200 profiles or nerfing 20 but I'd rather take the latter case even though I do realize that people spend time and money on models (as me sometimes about my opinion on Dead Man's Hand...).

As for the game, Mah got away, my two Henchmen didn't, and with the area cleared my opponent was able to complete his two Schemes.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Math Mathonwy I edited as you were typing there, so also added in a comment about changing it to be an attack would be good.

But other than that, philosophical differences I think!

[Ogid]

18 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

ah yeah, forgot that works that way. Still, I stand by collodi being S+ tier

I'm curious, why is Collodi better than other tanky crews like Hoffman, Schtook or Yan-Lo?

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think a lot of it comes down to just you being more nerf happy than I am for instance. I'm very sceptical of nerfs myself, since people invest so much time and money into each model.

Also one of the things I love about Malifaux is every crew does something that feels 'broken.'

I'm also of this opinion myself, as long as a keyword is not overperforming and a model isn't a "must pick" it's fine to me. I really like all the crazy synergies and models this game has.

3 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I loved how they did things in the tail end of M2e where they nerfed the problematic models.

I guess it's a toss up between buffing 200 profiles or nerfing 20 but I'd rather take the latter case even though I do realize that people spend time and money on models (as me sometimes about my opinion on Dead Man's Hand...).

I'd do both, powercreep is terrible; having a ton of underwhelming models isn't better. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Elaborating on the 'just make it an attack action', it could look something like this:

Quote

Attack actions

Gamble your life, Rg 6", stat X tomes, resist X, TN -

X is equal to 0. This duel cannot be cheated by either model. If the duel fails, this models takes 3/4/5 damage.

Target suffers 3/4/5 damage.

Tomes trigger: draw a card. If the target was not killed, discard a card.

They might have to invent a special icon for opposed duels that aren't based off a stat, such as using a * or X, but it seems worth it for balancing the model and bringing it in line with how the rules for every other model work, while keeping the ability as close to the original flavour intention as possible (we're both going to just flip a card, no cheating, pure luck... Of course, I'm going to do tricky things that aren't 'cheating'.)

It also weakens the ability as it means that the damage flip will suffer minus flips, which is another important balancing factor. It imposes serene countenance, incorporeal, manipulative, etc... All of which are great. It also means that models can use focused for it, or distract the stitched to weaken it.

Much more counterplay, and becomes a more interesting ability rather than less IMO.

[Ogid]

That version @Maniacal_cackle is a huge nerf... it removes the main strenghts of the ability (straight damage flip, tactical action, trigger always happens), keeps the disadvantages (damage himself and short range), add a ton of counterplay being an attack and give nothing in return. A change like that one would require very serious buffs to range (like 10'' or even 12'') and probably also other compensatory changes like a much better mele or free focused. It's like a totally different ability at that point... and that version makes things like Monks, Big Hat, Focused spammers and I'm sure than others I cant think off right now better at gambling than him; and it'd also make mimics (Agent47 and Doppleganger) terrific gamblers...

Changing GYL into an attack action without changing it too much isn't easy... I did a try in my OP and I'm not sure if I covered well all the possible interactions. I quote it here:

On 12/2/2019 at 12:24 PM, Ogid said:

Option 3: Making it an attack.

Making Gamble your life an attack is another way to add counterplay. However it’s a bit tricky to get an attack similar to the tactical action version. My (I hope decent) attack version would try to keep most of the tactical action flavor (a one card flip that bypass most defensive tech relying in not being hit, incorporeal and that can’t be cheated) while giving counterplay and adding some changes to balance it.

• Gamble Your Life (Rg 6’’; Stat *; Rst Wp; TN -)
• Requisites italics: Both models ignore any modifier to the duel and can’t cheat the duel. This attack ignores Terrifying. Damage accuracy modifiers are ignored. * stat is equal to Wp of the target, any modifier to the stat is ignored. Enemy only.
• Effects: Target suffers 3/4/5 damage ignoring Incorporeal. If this model loses the duel, this model suffers 3/4/5 damage.
• Triggers: Defensive Reflexes. Bloody Fate.Siphon Essence.
• Notes: Damage flip can be cheated and is affected by other modifiers different from accuracy.

Extra change: An upgrade to the mele attack. As in this case there are more counterplay I'd also go with stat 6 and built-in but maybe also adding a  “Bowled Over” trigger to have a way to handle defenders.

Disadvantages: It will make usable Wp defensive triggers and abilities like Butterfly Jump, Vengeance, Unmade, Fade Away, Consumed by Wrath, Karmic Ties, Natural Musk... It also opens the possibility to protect targets with Take the hit, Protected and the like (which are usually undesirable targets of low value or sturdy models with armor, H2K…). Now the built-in  trigger only works if the stitched win the duel, not always. 

Advantages: A more useable mele attack when counterplay makes Gamble your Life unusable. Gamble your life it’s now an Wp attack so it may heal stitched or other models if used engaged and may unbury nightmares, Focused may be used (it’d only affect the damage flip, not the duel tho). The reliability of the damage remains more or less the same when there is no counterplay options around. Two extra trigger.

[Maniacal_cackle]

38 minutes ago, Ogid said:

and that version makes things like Monks, Big Hat, Focused spammers and I'm sure than others I cant think off right now better at gambling than him; and it'd also make mimics (Agent47 and Doppleganger) terrific gamblers...

Sorry, I'm missing how are those models better at gambling? They'd be flipping from the top of their deck (potentially with a bonus), while the Stitched can still guarantee a severe card using lucid dreams. The odds will be in his favour to win. And how would mimic become a strong gambler? The stat would be irrelevant. Things like The Old Ways would potentially be better, but then you can just see what card is on the top of the opponent's discard pile. EDIT: Oh, right, since the stat of the Mimic would replace the stat of the duel. Well, again, you can just put that in the italics (the stat for this attack can never be anything other than 0).

And it surgically addresses the main thing potentially broken about stitched (that they ignore all defensive tech that is based on attacking).

I started in the camp that they don't need a nerf, but remembering all the niche scenarios where models are simply hard-countered by Stitched feels very bizarre. Stitched can easily kill Dreamer for instance, because it bypasses all THREE of his defensive abilities in one ability. Even Shenlong struggles to counter that many things with one ability.

EDIT: For most situations, Stitched are balanced (as they're not ignoring tons of defensive tech, they're just hitting things). In those instances, this change has the smallest effect (as this change primarily affects things that are based on attack actions). In the instances where it is most powerful (ignoring defensive tech), that is precisely where Stitched probably need to be toned down. This is a game of counterpicks, but Stitched are absurd for the level for which they counter some models. For the overall power level of the crew, it won't change much (the crew's average power is not dependent on its ability to bypass those defensive techs specifically). The crew might become a bit less favoured in some matchups, but overall it seems like it'd have the least disruptive effect.

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sorry, I'm missing how are those models better at gambling? They'd be flipping from the top of their deck (potentially with a bonus), while the Stitched can still guarantee a severe card using lucid dreams. The odds will be in his favour to win. And how would mimic become a strong gambler? The stat would be irrelevant. Things like The Old Ways would potentially be better, but then you can just see what card is on the top of the opponent's discard pile.

And it surgically addresses the main thing potentially broken about stitched (that they ignore all defensive tech that is based on attacking).

X is an unknow stat, but it's still an stat. Mimics will get a fixed stat of 7 (Doppleganger) or 6 (Agent) when copying the ability, becoming god tier gamblers (not fiendish gamble tho). Monks may discard Chi to get +2 to the duel and Big Hat get from +0 to +3 (counting Gremlin General) depending on how many models are around; and I'm probably missing a ton of interactions. Taking in count the average of an standard LD deck takes long to get to 8. It'd make those crews much better at straight flips, even versus a a LD heavy strategy in late game, and even with the Fiendish Gamble stitched has to expend resources and probably move to have a bigger chance to damage himself while being affected to every defensive tech. Plus it make it lose all uniqueness.

The OP version keep some of the advantages and flavour of GYL while adding counterplay and compensatory changes to it. Enabling abilities (protected, take the hit, Karmic Ties...) and Df triggers (Fade Away, Unmade...) is a huge nerf for the ability because that's what is ignored in the most vulnerable models to it; it'd make Colette able to fade away, BBB able to redirect the attack or the "Silent Protector" upgrade in a Samurai the perfect tech for example. It doesn't really need to add the duel, stat or terrifying defensive tech to it to give counterplay.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Ogid said:

X is an unknow stat, but it's still an stat. Mimics will get a fixed stat of 7 (Doppleganger) or 6 (Agent) when copying the ability, becoming god tier gamblers (not fiendish gamble tho). Monks may discard Chi to get +2 to the duel and Big Hat get from +0 to +3 (counting Gremlin General) depending on how many models are around; and I'm probably missing a ton of interactions. Taking in count the average of an standard LD deck takes long to get to 8. It'd make those crews much better at straight flips, even versus a a LD heavy strategy in late game, and even with the Fiendish Gamble stitched has to expend resources and probably move to have a bigger chance to damage himself while being affected to every defensive tech. Plus it make it lose all uniqueness.

The OP version keep some of the advantages and flavour of GYL while adding counterplay and compensatory changes to it. Enabling abilities (protected, take the hit, Karmic Ties...) and Df triggers (Fade Away, Unmade...) is a huge nerf for the ability because that's what is ignored in the most vulnerable models to it; it'd make Colette able to fade away, BBB able to redirect the attack or the "Silent Protector" upgrade in a Samurai the perfect tech for example. It doesn't really need to add the duel, stat or terrifying defensive tech to it to give counterplay.

I updated about the doppelganger, I missed that one (although easily solved as mentioned above). Others having bonuses to straight flip sounds reasonable to me - a six stone model shouldn't be able to outflip every model in the game.

But just to make sure I understand this correctly... Your position is abilities like Colette's should not function against stitched? So if you can get a stitched near Colette and two severes in hand, having a greater than 50% chance to kill her from full health in one activation is acceptable to you?

(Gamble, cheat if necessary for it to go off, flip from outside the game, cheat severe damage. Repeat hoping for luck, but better than a 50% chance).

Even Archie couldn't do that.

EDIT: a 3/4/5 damage track on a six cost model (even on an attack) would be overpowered if not for the ability for it to damage itself. So I don't think a 3/4/5 damage track having to face some minus flips and limitations is that bad, especially since the damage on itself is extremely rare, so as it stands it is very close to a 3/4/5 damage track with upside overall.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Initially I was anti-nerf on the grounds that the minion and crew are not over performing on average.

I was coming from a meta where stitched don't overperform (people don't run crews full of those types of defensive tech).

The arguments above have persuaded me a nerf is necessary. Once I realised my meta is not representative, I saw there are two major problems:

• A 6 stone, summonable minion shouldn't have a 3/4/5 damage track without a sizable downside. Despite the possible damage, stitched 3/4/5 damage track comes with huge upsides.
• Certain crews are just going to be ripped apart by stitched.

Certain models being strong against other crews is part of what makes Malifaux such a great game. But the above examples make me think that stitched are too extreme (especially since the keyword already can ignore several defensive techs). Most of the time they are acceptable in power level, but some crews they're just so ridiculous. As a Molly player, I'd feel like there is more counterplay to playing against Shenlong. Which is reknown as one of the worst matchups in the game.

I think removing the 3/4/5 damage track could ruin Stitched in minion Dreamer crews. That isn't what I play, but I feel that'd be too big a hit for those crews. 

Giving Gamble Your Life some actual downsides (can fail horribly), but very powerful, semi-controllable outcomes (fiendish gambles, 3/4/5 damage track) to me makes a lot of sense.

But having a minion that hits as hard as the best beaters in the game with upside on top of that... It does seem too powerful in some niche situations, and those niche situations need to be addressed.

[Ogid]

38 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I started in the camp that they don't need a nerf, but remembering all the niche scenarios where models are simply hard-countered by Stitched feels very bizarre. Stitched can easily kill Dreamer for instance, because it bypasses all THREE of his defensive abilities in one ability. Even Shenlong struggles to counter that many things with one ability.

EDIT: For most situations, Stitched are balanced (as they're not ignoring tons of defensive tech, they're just hitting things). In those instances, this change has the smallest effect (as this change primarily affects things that are based on attack actions). In the instances where it is most powerful (ignoring defensive tech), that is precisely where Stitched probably need to be toned down. This is a game of counterpicks, but Stitched are absurd for the level for which they counter some models. For the overall power level of the crew, it won't change much (the crew's average power is not dependent on its ability to bypass those defensive techs specifically). The crew might become a bit less favoured in some matchups, but overall it seems like it'd have the least disruptive effect.

I'm still in the camp that they seem to be performing fine, but as it's a very complained model I wanted to explore in this thread the posibility to make it a less one trick model, restricting GYL and buffing other parts of his kit and also see which are the scenarios where people find him overperforming.

However the main complain is still "a 6SS model shouldn't do that" without adressing limitations of the model and keyword design... So as other player said, It's probably better leaving him as he is; he counter some models hard, but there is room to play around him.

Funnily enough Shenlong can counter even more things. Put him Masked Agent, the Fermented Style, use Chi and stone/cheat a Ram and you have a model with stat 8, getting for Serene Counterance and H2W, ignoring Df triggers and doing irreductible damage, he can also charge from 11'' away and stagger the target model (no irreductible damage in that attack tho)...

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But just to make sure I understand this correctly... Your position is abilities like Colette's should not function against stitched? So if you can get a stitched near Colette and two severes in hand, having a greater than 50% chance to kill her from full health in one activation is acceptable to you?

(Gamble, cheat if necessary for it to go off, flip from outside the game, cheat severe damage. Repeat hoping for luck, but better than a 50% chance).

Even Archie couldn't do that.

As you said above, this is a game of counterpicks and knowing the other crew is important. Colette has a crew with Armor+1 and Armor+2 models that can handle the stitched and also a terrific versatile pool to pick; plus global mobility and is able to bury herself to stay safe. If a Colette ends her turn near of an stitched or is careless and let an stitched get summoned next to her when she had been activated, that's 100% on her. Her crew has the mobility to outscheme Nightmare or to hunt the daydreams and also Armored models to handle Stitcheds. And even if she missplays hard and decide to go and slap an stitched, she can always use SS to stay alive. Stitched will create some areas where Colette herself won't want to be, the rest of the board is hers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

21 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Funnily enough Shenlong can counter even more things. Put him Masked Agent, the Fermented Style, use Chi and stone/cheat a Ram and you have a model with stat 8, getting for Serene Counterance and H2W, ignoring Df triggers and doing irreductible damage, he can also charge from 11'' away and stagger the target model (no irreductible damage in that attack tho)...

 

I wrote something while you were writing above that clarifies more, but worth noting Shenlong can't do everything a stitched can with one attack.

If Shenlong attacks my Molly, I'm going to try using "Take the Hit" on summoned Ashigaru to absorb the hits. There is counterplay where I can shift which attacks I am vulnerable to (instead then being vulnerable to a less concerning blast, and even then only after Take the Hit, not before).

Countering back and forth is part of the game. Ignoring (almost) everything in one ability is not good counterplay IMO. There should be some limits.

EDIT:

Here is what interesting counterplay looks like to me:

My opponent was running Captain Zipp (df trigger to blast off 6"). I throw a stun using willpower to shut down the df trigger, then beat him to death using melee attacks that he can't escape because he is stunned.

Counterplay should be dynamic and back-and-forth. Not "avoid these parts of the table or insta-die"

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The arguments above have persuaded me a nerf is necessary. Once I realised my meta is not representative, I saw there are two major problems:

• A 6 stone, summonable minion shouldn't have a 3/4/5 damage track without a sizable downside. Despite the possible damage, stitched 3/4/5 damage track comes with huge upsides.
• Certain crews are just going to be ripped apart by stitched.

Certain models being strong against other crews is part of what makes Malifaux such a great game. But the above examples make me think that stitched are too extreme (especially since the keyword already can ignore several defensive techs). Most of the time they are acceptable in power level, but some crews they're just so ridiculous. As a Molly player, I'd feel like there is more counterplay to playing against Shenlong. Which is reknown as one of the worst matchups in the game.

So certain models having unique and cool things and adapting is part of the game; but that not applies to stitched .

As said above he and the keyword where he appear seems to be performing on the curve, so I wouldn't nerf a model based in theories.

Let's see other examples:

• Stitched activates, make GYL using a 13 pulled out of the game to a Samurai, cheats a severe and deals 3 damage. Then try again and fails, flips a moderate and has no weak cards in the hand so he suffers 3 damage. Then the Samurai activates, concentrate for free, charges and kill him getting Poison+1; then use juggernaut and heals 2.
• An outcast player put Hans in a central position on the board where he can see 2 stitcheds. In the next turn Hans activate, discard a crow and shoots once to each stitched. Now both models can't move and use GYL so the OUT player may ignore those stitcheds while he handles the other models of the crew/scheme; meanwhile those severe cards removed are doing nothing.
• A model fails a Wp check near of Rasputina and an stitched is summoned there. He is killed in the next activation by the Blessed of December instead of doing some random thing and letting him double GYL Rasputina.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But having a minion that hits as hard as the best beaters in the game with upside on top of that... It does seem too powerful in some niche situations, and those niche situations need to be addressed.

Stitched is far from hitting as hard as the best beaters in the game, a true beater well supported is much more dangerous and can threaten a bigger area than a stitched, and the niche situations could be adressed with smart play and versatile/OOK picks. The only case where I doubt is in Nightmare where the unbury in b2b may put vulnerable models next to him; but again it's about playing and picking with them in mind.

I don't know if there is a crew that will have a very hard match up versus them, but in that case maybe that crew shouldn't be picked versus NVB? There is a reason the faction is announced first, picking a crew vulnerable to a gunline isn't a good idea versus GUI, and one relying in manipulative/distracted/df triggers versus TT is also a bad pick with Tanukis and Samurais/Fuhatsu with .

But, which cases do you have in mind where he could be too good?

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If Shenlong attacks my Molly, I'm going to try using "Take the Hit" on summoned Ashigaru to absorb the hits. There is counterplay where I can shift which attacks I am vulnerable to (instead then being vulnerable to a less concerning blast, and even then only after Take the Hit, not before).

Countering back and forth is part of the game. Ignoring (almost) everything in one ability is not good counterplay IMO. There should be some limits.

Yes, but they have different counterplays. Shenlong has the mobility to hit almost wherever he wants so unless the entire Molly crew is hugging that Ashigaru, odds are he will have good targets to attack. Not counting being a Master able to pump his Df to 7, get Butterfly jump and use SS to reduce damage. Plus he can always go for Onslaught to kill the Ashigaru fast, even in one AP and then turn to Molly. If you want even more Shenlong fun you can add Chiaki and Izamu to his crew and put Izamu's Reliquary in Shenlong to give him Armor+1 and Ruthless to be able to ignore even more things.

Meanwhile Stitched will have a very hard time getting to Molly and an be killed much easily and she can still use SS and H2W still applies so the damage flip won't be cheatable and will have a . Of course If we asume Molly will try to go forward and punch Stitcheds, then stitcheds may be decent models versus her.

These 2 arent even in the same league; Shenlong may hunt and put down almost any model in the game.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT:

Here is what interesting counterplay looks like to me:

My opponent was running Captain Zipp (df trigger to blast off 6"). I throw a stun using willpower to shut down the df trigger, then beat him to death using melee attacks that he can't escape because he is stunned.

Counterplay should be dynamic and back-and-forth. Not "avoid these parts of the table or insta-die"

That's an example of what not to do with Zipp, if a model has a stun and a mele attack able to kill him; then Zipp should had used his mobility to not be anywhere near of that model... so that's just an example of "avoid these part of the table or die".

Maybe in the examples in this thread the double GYL always go off, deal severe damage and is in range of good targets like Henchmans and Masters with no damage reduction and always out of SS, so it seems like a insta-die zone. But in reality two duels plus two flips are needed, it has 6'' and it can fail and damage the stitched.

[Maniacal_cackle]

41 minutes ago, Ogid said:

That's an example of what not to do with Zipp, if a model has a stun and a mele attack able to kill him; then Zipp should had used his mobility to not be anywhere near of that model... so that's just an example of "avoid these part of the table or die".

I was playing Pandora, so avoiding my models with stun was not an option (18" threat range on stunned, or 13 with a focus to get past concealing).

I had to work for it, but I was able to force it through with some work. In fact, I had to work so hard for it I ended up losing.

With stitched, the work is much less.

42 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 

Maybe in the examples in this thread the double GYL always go off, deal severe damage and is in range of good targets like Henchmans and Masters with no damage reduction and always out of SS, so it seems like a insta-die zone. But in reality two duels plus two flips are needed, it has 6'' and it can fail and damage the stitched.

The double GYL doesn't always go off, but you can almost always force it if you want to. Two severes plus a card to cheat a failed duel in hand is enough to give you better than a 50% chance to deal 10 damage in an activation. That's pretty good odds. And of course, that ignores the more common case where you can give yourself over a 90% chance to deal 3-5.

And it isn't that this guarantees insta-kills. It is that is so dangerous and consistent enough that the enemy has to play around it extensively, and the stitched crew doesn't even necessarily need to do anything. Its mere existence warps how opponents have to play. Which again is acceptable to a degree, but I now think stitched go too far.

I'll try to post a master by master analysis later. It really opened my eyes to go read all the masters and to realise how many of them stitched can just nuke.