Charm Warder's Chaos Theory

[Lunatic_Machine]

I just need a minor clarification regarding the Charm Warder's Action "Chaos Theory" and it's trigger No Causality.
 

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Chaos Theory ( 5" Stat 6 TN 12):
Choose a suit. Triggers on this Action must be declared, if able. One at the time, every enemy model within range discards the top two cards of its Fate Deck. For each discarded card that matched the named suit, the enemy model suffers 2 damage.

      No Causality: Choose a model in LoS that is not within range. When resolving, the chosen model counts as being within range of this Action.

 

The Charm Warder has to declare the No Causality trigger if she flips a . What happens if there is no enemy model within LoS that is not within range? Do I have to choose a friendly model? What happens if I have to choose a friendly model as Chaos Theory only effects enemy models?

 

[solkan]

18 minutes ago, Lunatic_Machine said:

I just need a minor clarification regarding the Charm Warder's Action "Chaos Theory" and it's trigger No Causality.
 

 

The Charm Warder has to declare the No Causality trigger if she flips a . What happens if there is no enemy model within LoS that is not within range? Do I have to choose a friendly model?

Yep.

18 minutes ago, Lunatic_Machine said:

What happens if I have to choose a friendly model as Chaos Theory only effects enemy models?

The same thing that happens to all of the other friendly models in range—nothing.

Admittedly, that’s weird because all of the other “triggers must be declared, if able” Actions I’m seeing at least have the possibility of unintended bad stuff.  This one just has “whoops, didn’t mean to kill the enemy models”.  😕 

[santaclaws01]

18 hours ago, solkan said:

Yep.

The same thing that happens to all of the other friendly models in range—nothing.

Admittedly, that’s weird because all of the other “triggers must be declared, if able” Actions I’m seeing at least have the possibility of unintended bad stuff.  This one just has “whoops, didn’t mean to kill the enemy models”.  😕 

Lightning bugs have Chaos Theory as well.

[solkan]

9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Lightning bugs have Chaos Theory as well.

Which version of the card has that?  I'm not seeing it on the 3.22 beta files, or the Tableflip Dropbox files.

Only model I'm seeing with the Chaos Theory action is the Charm Warder.

[Maniacal_cackle]

If it helps understanding, if this interaction wasn't intended, then the likely wording would say 'choose an enemy model.'

The fact that you can choose a friendly model and it forces you to choose a model is likely intentional.

I did go digging through the rulebook to see if I could find anything suggesting you could declare a trigger without choosing a model, but turned up empty. So think that yes, you're required to choose a friendly model by the wording of the trigger if you declare the trigger.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, solkan said:

Which version of the card has that?  I'm not seeing it on the 3.22 beta files, or the Tableflip Dropbox files.

Only model I'm seeing with the Chaos Theory action is the Charm Warder.

Hm, maybe I looked at their cards less recently than I thought. Or I could have just imagined it.

[Lunatic_Machine]

I have another question regarding Chaos Theory.

How does Armor or other sources of damage reduction interact with Chaos Theory?
If a model flips two cards with the chosen suit do you add the damage and then subtract Armor (e.g. 2+2-1) or do you subtract Armor first and add the damage afterwards (2-1+2-1)?

[Allandrel]

6 hours ago, Lunatic_Machine said:

I have another question regarding Chaos Theory.

How does Armor or other sources of damage reduction interact with Chaos Theory?
If a model flips two cards with the chosen suit do you add the damage and then subtract Armor (e.g. 2+2-1) or do you subtract Armor first and add the damage afterwards (2-1+2-1)?

The latter.  "For each discarded card that matched the named suit, the enemy model suffers 2 damage" means that a model that discards two cards of the named suit suffers two damage twice, with damage reduction applying separately to each.

If it was one instance of damage, it would be written "the enemy model suffers damage equal to twice the number of discarded cards that match the named suit."

[diki]

I would think it resolves as a single suffer 4 damage effect.

Are there any examples of one effect causing multiple individual damage effects to a single model? (excluding modifications due to abilities/triggers?)

If it is 2 seperate suffer damages NEPHILIM's are gonna love you though!

[solkan]

 

2 hours ago, Allandrel said:

The latter.  "For each discarded card that matched the named suit, the enemy model suffers 2 damage" means that a model that discards two cards of the named suit suffers two damage twice, with damage reduction applying separately to each.

If it was one instance of damage, it would be written "the enemy model suffers damage equal to twice the number of discarded cards that match the named suit."

There's actually a much more convincing version of this argument.

If the damage was supposed to stack together, like it does in all of the other incremental effects, they could have just written

"For each discarded card that matched the named suit, the enemy model suffers +2 damage."  There's even the appropriate passage in the rules saying "If you're on the receiving end of +X damage from an effect that doesn't otherwise cause damage, you take X damage."  (They had to put that clause in there at least partially because of stuff like Demise(Explosive) that says

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models within 2 suffer +X damage

but that does mean that there's a right way for them to right that effect concisely.   

And, there's a few dozen cards with the Critical Strike trigger and similar "target suffers +1 damage" effects on them so people should used to idea of taking some damage, and adding damage modifiers.

[Yore Huckleberry]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

 

There's actually a much more convincing version of this argument.

If the damage was supposed to stack together, like it does in all of the other incremental effects, they could have just written

"For each discarded card that matched the named suit, the enemy model suffers +2 damage."  There's even the appropriate passage in the rules saying "If you're on the receiving end of +X damage from an effect that doesn't otherwise cause damage, you take X damage."  (They had to put that clause in there at least partially because of stuff like Demise(Explosive) that says

but that does mean that there's a right way for them to right that effect concisely.   

And, there's a few dozen cards with the Critical Strike trigger and similar "target suffers +1 damage" effects on them so people should used to idea of taking some damage, and adding damage modifiers.

I’m still newish and hadn’t been tracking this rule. Does this mean that Crit Strike is added in AFTER damage reduction? Eg, if a model did 2 damage + declared crit strike against an armor 2 target, the target suffers 2, rather than 1?

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I’m still newish and hadn’t been tracking this rule. Does this mean that Crit Strike is added in AFTER damage reduction? Eg, if a model did 2 damage + declared crit strike against an armor 2 target, the target suffers 2, rather than 1?

Nope, you can check it in the damage timing (pg34). Crit Strike is a "when resolving" effect that modifies damage, it is applied the damage in step 2; damage reduction is applied in step 3.