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Changling Changling Double Double Question Question


Jesy Blue

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If a Changling is within range of a Clockwork Trap for its Copycat ability when an enemy model ends a "move, push, or place" within 2" of the Changling, can it use the Trapping Jaw attack to attack immediately?

If a Changling is within range of a Clockwork Trap for its Copycat ability when an enemy model ends a "push or move that is not part of a Walk or Charge action" within 2" of the Changling, can it use the Trapping Jaw attack to attack immediately twice?  (once with the wording from Trapping Jaw and again with the wording of Surprise!)

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Upvote for the thread title!

 

I'd say a changeling can't take multiple Trapping Jaw attacks from a model ending near them. The changeling gets to chose any attack and take it but I don't think you can take the Trapping Jaw attack again after that just because of the description. You already did use the Trapping Jaw that way by taking it with the changeling and it doesn't say you can take it any number of times this way so you already fulfilled the condition of taking it against the model even if it was from the changeling's ability. I hope that makes some sense. 

I would argue that the emissary can take it if a trap is buried though since it is allowed to take actions on buried models and the action has that stipulation in its description.

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Looking at the cards. I agree with ludvig. The changling doesn't have the trapping jaw action for it's ability to happen. You can attack thanks to surprise, but that's it.  But I'd also use that argument to say the emissary also can't get those attacks just because something ended a move nearby. 

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15 minutes ago, Adran said:

Looking at the cards. I agree with ludvig. The changling doesn't have the trapping jaw action for it's ability to happen. You can attack thanks to surprise, but that's it.  But I'd also use that argument to say the emissary also can't get those attacks just because something ended a move nearby. 

Then where is the front-of-card ability which lets the trap itself use its own attack in that manner? That’s the hurdle I cannot pass. Is it simply illegal RAW no matter that a caveat is written into the attack?

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3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'd say a changeling can't take multiple Trapping Jaw attacks from a model ending near them. The changeling gets to chose any attack and take it but I don't think you can take the Trapping Jaw attack again after that just because of the description. You already did use the Trapping Jaw that way by taking it with the changeling and it doesn't say you can take it any number of times this way so you already fulfilled the condition of taking it against the model even if it was from the changeling's ability.

But can the Changling then take an Attack against a model that was Placed within range, an reaction the Trapping Jaw gets to attack on, but Surprise! does not?

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I'm thinking they could use the action. I kind of think they have to be able to reference that text in the same way the trap is allowed to reference it form the card. That seems like the intent when putting the stipulation in the action and not on the front of the clockwork trap's card. I referenced the rules through the app now, maybe the front of card was full? Space has always been an issue in the design of this game.

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3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I'm thinking they could use the action. I kind of think they have to be able to reference that text in the same way the trap is allowed to reference it form the card. That seems like the intent when putting the stipulation in the action and not on the front of the clockwork trap's card. I referenced the rules through the app now, maybe the front of card was full? Space has always been an issue in the design of this game.

I don’t know.  It still feels like that text is there because it didn’t fit on the front side.

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

I don’t know.  It still feels like that text is there because it didn’t fit on the front side.

That is a possibility for sure but when a model ends near a trap that trap also has to access text in the action before actually being allowed to take it due to the text nestled in the action which is equally strange. If one works I'm not sure why the other wouldn't. There is nothing in the base rules really giving the trap a specific permission just because the action is on its card?

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  • 2 weeks later...

After reviewing the rules around declaration of actions, I see no reason why both the emissary and the changeling can't take the trapping jaw action outside of their activations. Trapping jaw is a unique action in that it was designed for an inanimate object, and was given the ability to check for targets without the model itself being able to take a turn. If the ability to attack wasn't part of the action this would be different, but as it's worded, I see no reason why it doesn't function normally when copied by copycat or tyranny of order, nothing I've found expressly forbids it. 

As to surprise on top of the actual action, I'd say you get one or the other due to timing. Somewhat loathe to use that word because of the confusion about general timing, but that seems to be there for actions involving two models. Logically speaking, two people can perform separate actions at the same time but one person can't perform a single action twice at the same time. (e.g. you can swing two hammers at the same time but can't swing the same hammer twice at the same time)

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