Lucky Effigy's Condition and what is a flip

[Math Mathonwy]

Lucky Effigy can give this Condition:

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a  in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

If the model with a Condition has suffered four damage and then has  for a duel and flips 12, 11, and 2 does the model heal two as it flipped two Rams cards even though it is forced to choose the two of crows?

Also, does the model heal when flipping a Red Joker?

I'm guessing that the answer to both questions is yes, it heals in both cases. But there was some discussion about this one in a game today.

[Angelshard]

Lets try to keep a cool head, this discussion is about to degenerate into an uncivilized tone. 

I see the flip as one instsance, but two steps.

This means that you can either interpret it as every effect happening between the flip and selection or after selection. 

I lean towards the first, but I can see the argument for the second. In the end (I think)  comes down to how you interpret the wording in the bonus flips on page 17.

As to how it affects different models (lawyer, Molly, lynch,effigy and so forth) that doesn't matter, all that matters is wether or not flip and active card are one and the same or not.

[Myyrä]

36 minutes ago, MrDeathTrout said:

Flip is probably used to refer to a single card flip many places,

Still waiting for someone to actually give an example of case where a flip refers to a single card inside a flip with fate modifiers. (That doesn't even make sense when written.)

36 minutes ago, MrDeathTrout said:

but the intent of the Lucky Emisary's trait is pretty obvious.

Yeah, I don't know what you mean. Does that mean that it isn't obvious?

[Myyrä]

@WWHSD You are 100% correct. No one is trying to argue that all cards involved in a flip weren't flipped. However, Lucky Effigy's ability doesn't say anything about flipped cards, it speaks about flips, so that is all more or less irrelevant.

[WWHSD]

As to the examples of Molly and The Guild Lawyer: Both of those seem to be referring to flipping moderate and severe damage, not card values. Are the cards that are flipped in a damage flip "moderate damage" or "severe damage" before an active card has been chosen? The wording of these abilities would seem to suggest that what is important is the severity of the damage that is flipped or cheated instead of the severity that is actually dealt or inflicted. If something comes along and downgrades the severity it would still trigger the effect. 

[Math Mathonwy]

For the record, the short "I disagree" wasn't meant in the sense that I'm about to lose it and start breaking things but rather in the sense that I felt that I had expressed my views as clearly as I was able and that re-iterating them wouldn't serve a purpose yet I still wasn't swayed by the counter arguments. I have nothing but love towards Myyrä.

I did however come up with a slightly different tack still while riding the morning train.

Whenever Ophelia flips a ram, she immediately heals 1. Ophelia flips a tome card. Ophelia flips two additional cards (due to two positive modifiers), both are rams. How many cards did Ophelia flip and how many times did she heal?

Whenever George eats a blueberry cookie, he burps. George eats a strawberry cookie. George eats two additional cookies, both are blueberry cookies. How many cookies has George eaten and how many times has he burped?

I see no difference between the logic in those two examples and the upper one uses language from the rules (flip additional cards).

[Myyrä]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

For the record, the short "I disagree" wasn't meant in the sense that I'm about to lose it and start breaking things but rather in the sense that I felt that I had expressed my views as clearly as I was able and that re-iterating them wouldn't serve a purpose yet I still wasn't swayed by the counter arguments. I have nothing but love towards Myyrä.

Nice to know at least someone cares.

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I did however come up with a slightly different tack still while riding the morning train.

Whenever Ophelia flips a ram, she immediately heals 1. Ophelia flips a tome card. Ophelia flips two additional cards (due to two positive modifiers), both are rams. How many cards did Ophelia flip and how many times did she heal?

Whenever George eats a blueberry cookie, he burps. George eats a strawberry cookie. George eats two additional cookies, both are blueberry cookies. How many cookies has George eaten and how many times has he burped?

I see no difference between the logic in those two examples and the upper one uses language from the rules (flip additional cards).

I don't really see the point of these examples. Do you believe I don't understand what you are trying to say and try to illuminate your stance? Are trying to prove that things can be called by the same name are always the same?

That kind of reasoning is about as convincing as the following: Everyone knows that rolling a 6 with a six sided die is analogous with 6 coming up top. That's pretty much the definition, so everyone must accept it. Now, I can install a high speed camera above my gaming table to record my die rolls. I can clearly see from the pictures that number 6 was on top several times as the die was rolling on the table. Thus, I can say that I rolled a 6, even though 2 was on top when the die stopped.

What you are doing is redefining flipping a to mean flipping a ram card and then proving that you actually flipped a ram card. What you should be doing instead is prove that flipping a actually means flipping a ram card.

[Myyrä]

42 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I'm not redefining anything. "chooses one of the flipped cards as the active card" - the cards were flipped. Even the cards that were not chosen as active were flipped. And nowhere is a distinction made between a  and a rams card because the book uses the symbol consistently after defining it. If we check what a card is, it has a suit and a value. Three cards were flipped, each of them has a suit and a value and those suits might or might not be .

Your stance is in no way stronger than mine if you go by RAW. You define "flipped" as the active card of the flip, I define it as cards that have been flipped. Both interpretations are valid. A FAQ entry is needed.

The die has a 6 and it might be on top many times, but it doesn't matter unless the 6 is on top once the die stops moving. A die roll only produces 1 number regardless of what it does while rolling or being rolled. It doesn't really matter that you can call a somersault a roll as well.

The same way a flip has been defined in Malifaux as turning over one or more cards to produce a single result. It doesn't really matter that you can call a somersault a flip as well.

[santaclaws01]

@Myyrä Do you believe that Lucky Draw can only ever heal 1 damage at a time? And if so, why is it worded in literally the most convoluted way possible for going off of the final duel total when literally every other action, ability, or affect that cares about what is in the final duel total says final duel total? Or is it possible that they did literally just mean if a  gets flipped from the deck during a duel you heal 1, regardless of it you use it or not, because while yes a flip is described as only having one result, it details how to flip more cards during it and Lucky Draw makes no mention at all of caring what the actual result of the duel is, just if s were flipped in the process.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

@Myyrä Do you believe that Lucky Draw can only ever heal 1 damage at a time?

Yes.

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

And if so, why is it worded in literally the most convoluted way possible for going off of the final duel total when literally every other action, ability, or affect that cares about what is in the final duel total says final duel total?

To me it seems like a very short and concise way to say that. Kind of like saying: If you roll a 6, heal one wound. Can't get much clearer than that.

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Or is it possible that they did literally just mean if a  gets flipped from the deck during a duel you heal 1, regardless of it you use it or not, because while yes a flip is described as only having one result, it details how to flip more cards during it and Lucky Draw makes no mention at all of caring what the actual result of the duel is, just if s were flipped in the process.

Why wouldn't they make it extra clear that they mean the flipped cards, if they intended to create literally the only ability in the game (at the time) that cares about those?

[Adran]

36 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

@Myyrä Do you believe that Lucky Draw can only ever heal 1 damage at a time? And if so, why is it worded in literally the most convoluted way possible for going off of the final duel total when literally every other action, ability, or affect that cares about what is in the final duel total says final duel total? Or is it possible that they did literally just mean if a  gets flipped from the deck during a duel you heal 1, regardless of it you use it or not, because while yes a flip is described as only having one result, it details how to flip more cards during it and Lucky Draw makes no mention at all of caring what the actual result of the duel is, just if s were flipped in the process.

There is already a difference between cards fliped from the deck to generate the duel total and cards cheated from your hand. The Red Joker prevents cheating when it appears in a flip. So the final duel total only apples after cheating, and would use a cheated card, which isn't really all that lucky. 

So they haven't written that its the end duel total  The Lucky Effigy doesn't care about the final duel total, becasue that is not what it looks at.

 

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

 The Black Joker Red Joker prevents cheating when it appears in a flip. So the final duel total only apples after cheating, and would use a cheated card, which isn't really all that lucky. 

 

I think that's what you were going for.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

To me it seems like a very short and concise way to say that. Kind of like saying: If you roll a 6, heal one wound. Can't get much clearer than that.

If that roll consisted of rolling multiple dice we'd be having the same conversation about whether "Whenever this model rolls a 6" is talking about the total of the roll or what is showing on the face of the individual dice.  

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

If that roll consisted of rolling multiple dice we'd be having the same conversation about whether "Whenever this model rolls a 6" is talking about the total of the roll or what is showing on the face of the individual dice.  

Which is why we are lucky to have have rules for interpreting the results of the flip from the flipped cards. Just like most games with well written rules have instructions for interpreting dice rolls.

[WWHSD]

1 minute ago, Myyrä said:

Which is why we are lucky to have have rules for interpreting the results of the flip from the flipped cards. Just like most games with well written rules have instructions for interpreting dice rolls.

Even after I've quoted you those rules you still seem to disagree though 

[Myyrä]

15 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Even after I've quoted you those rules you still seem to disagree though 

I'm getting kind of tired of shooting down all these inconsistent theories really.

16 hours ago, WWHSD said:

2E Core, pg 26: 
"When a flip is required, the model turns over one or
more cards from the top of the Fate Deck to achieve a
random number and/or suit. Flips are used to resolve
simple situations, such as suffering damage or healing."

There is nothing in that block that indicates that only the card chosen during the flip is considered to have been flipped. It merely says that a flip is used to generate a value and a suit. It doesn't go into detail on the process of actually generating that number in the short section on "Flips".

You are claiming that a flip consisting of multiple cards could somehow result in a single number and a suit without any actual choice taking place. It's not difficult to disagree with that.

16 hours ago, WWHSD said:

The section on duels refers to flipping cards in a bunch of spots. It instructs you to chose one to become active and then to discard the others. I don't ever see the rules say that the active card becomes your flipped card.

If you look at the section on Jokers and Fate Modifers it seems to clearly indicate that all of the cards that are part of the flip are considered flipped.

2E Core, pg 27:
"Black Joker: Regardless of the modifier, if the Black Joker
is flipped the player must choose it, even if there are one
or more cards flipped because of a .
Red Joker: As long as the Black Joker is not also flipped,
the Red Joker may always be chosen during a flip, even
if there are one or more cards flipped because of a ."

If cards were't considered flipped until they were chosen as the active card then this section of the rules doesn't make any sense. There are several other sections like this. 

You quoted a part of the rules that directly says that the card is chosen during a flip.

16 hours ago, WWHSD said:

The words "flip", "flipped", "flipping" are used all throughout the rules. "Flip" is used to refer to the act of randomization (Attack Flip, Damage Flip, etc.) as well as a general verb used in instructions. As far as I can see, every time that a card is referred to as having been flipped it is before a card has been chosen as active.

Irrelevant.

[WWHSD]

1 minute ago, Myyrä said:

You are claiming that a flip consisting of multiple cards could somehow result in a single number and a suit without any actual choice taking place. It's not difficult to disagree with that.

That's not at all what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that a model flips multiple cards during a Flip and one of those cards is chosen as the active card. That seems consistent with how the rules are written.

The Lucky Effigy ability seems to care about what cards the model flips and not what is selected as the active card for the Flip.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

That's not at all what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that a model flips multiple cards during a Flip and one of those cards is chosen as the active card. That seems consistent with how the rules are written.

The Lucky Effigy ability seems to care about what cards the model flips and not what is selected as the active card for the Flip.

I ninjaedited my previous post. Sorry about that. Please read it again.

[WWHSD]

25 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I'm getting kind of tired of shooting down all these inconsistent theories really.

You are claiming that a flip consisting of multiple cards could somehow result in a single number and a suit without any actual choice taking place. It's not difficult to disagree with that.

You quoted a part of the rules that directly says that the card is chosen during a flip.

Irrelevant.

I don't think that I've insinuated that a choice isn't made. It definitely is. A model flips multiple cards. It chooses one of them to be the active card. I'm contending that when a model flips cards, whenever one of them is a , that model would heal 1 Wd if it had the condition from the Effigy.  That appears to be the most direct reading of the card and the rules. I don't see what's inconsistent about that.

From where I'm sitting you are the one making assertions and asking for people to disprove you, even though the one bit of rules you've cited doesn't actually say what you are claiming that it does. Your position seems to be that "Whenever a model flips a  ..." actual means "Whenever a model flips a  and selects it as the active card ..."

 

I do think that the grammar and usage of "flip" is central to this discussion since the "Flips" that you keep referring to is not the same thing as the "flips" that is used in the ability text.

[Myyrä]

29 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I don't think that I've insinuated that a choice isn't made. It definitely is. A model flips multiple cards. It chooses one of them to be the active card. I'm contending that when a model flips cards, whenever one of them is a , that model would heal 1 Wd if it had the condition from the Effigy.  That appears to be the most direct reading of the card and the rules. I don't see what's inconsistent about that.

From where I'm sitting you are the one making assertions and asking for people to disprove you, even though the one bit of rules you've cited doesn't actually say what you are claiming that it does. Your position seems to be that "Whenever a model flips a  ..." actual means "Whenever a model flips a  and selects it as the active card ..."

Just to make sure we are talking using the same terms:

a flip = act of turning over one or more cards from the top of your deck to get a single random number and up to one suit. (Yes, it includes choosing choosing the card).

to flip = to perform a flip

to flip x cards = to perform a flip consisting of x cards

flipped cards = cards turned over as a part of a flip

to flip a suit/number/damage = to perform a flip and get a suit/number/damage as a result

If my understanding of any of these terms is inconsistent with the rules, please point it out. I have not seen a single rules quote here that would contradict this.

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

to flip = to perform a flip

This is where we disagree. Whenever "flip" is used as a verb it is referring to the act of pulling a card from the top of the deck and revealing it. Only when it is used as a noun does it refer to the rules procedure that is called a "Flip".

[Myyrä]

21 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

This is where we disagree. Whenever "flip" is used as a verb it is referring to the act of pulling a card from the top of the deck and revealing it. Only when it is used as a noun does it refer to the rules procedure that is called a "Flip".

What would it take for you to be convinced this isn't the case? This isn't sarcasm or frustration speaking, I'm honestly asking.

[WWHSD]

8 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

What would it take for you to be convinced this isn't the case? This isn't sarcasm or frustration speaking, I'm honestly asking.

I'm honestly not sure. Seeing something in the rules that uses the verb "flip" to refer the process as a whole would be a good start.

[Myyrä]

Just now, WWHSD said:

I'm honestly not sure. Seeing something in the rules that uses the verb "flip" to refer the process as a whole would be a good start.

Here's a couple of examples:

"The opposing player flips for hazardous terrain damage, which may not be cheated." pg. 74

"Whenever two friendly models are engaged in an Opposed Duel, the defending friendly model may choose to lose the duel. Before any cards are flipped, the Defending model may choose to relent. When this happens, the Attacker flips as normal, and the Defender flips no cards, it is instead assumed that the Defender tied the Attacker’s final duel total, without any suits." pg. 27

"Who Flips?
The player who controls an Action flips for the model. This is usually the player who is in control of the model’s Crew, but some Actions (like Obey) will temporarily change who the controller of an Action is." pg. 22

 

[WWHSD]

Just now, Myyrä said:

Here's a couple of examples:

"The opposing player flips for hazardous terrain damage, which may not be cheated." pg. 74

"Whenever two friendly models are engaged in an Opposed Duel, the defending friendly model may choose to lose the duel. Before any cards are flipped, the Defending model may choose to relent. When this happens, the Attacker flips as normal, and the Defender flips no cards, it is instead assumed that the Defender tied the Attacker’s final duel total, without any suits." pg. 27

"Who Flips?
The player who controls an Action flips for the model. This is usually the player who is in control of the model’s Crew, but some Actions (like Obey) will temporarily change who the controller of an Action is." pg. 22

 

I read all of those as the physical act of flipping cards which probably explains our huge disconnect.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

I read all of those as the physical act of flipping cards which probably explains our huge disconnect.

So, you don't think the player controlling the model also chooses the card that is used for the ?