Nekima question

[-Loki-]

Well, Lilitu wear seductive dresses and Shamans wear ceremonial robes. Lelu seem to wear leather pants. Other Neverborn don't hate humans as much as Fae and Nephilim. Woe are reflections of their emotions, so some are going to at least appear human, which would mean clothes as well. Nightmares don't really appear human, and only the Widow Weaver wears clothes, and that's more in a creepy way. Mimics, well, mimic things. Can't mimic a human without clothes. Raises suspicions.

[Sybarite]

17 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

or her using her sexuality to intimidate and project her femininity. Nothing says, "I'm the true mother of monsters!" quite like bearing your hips and breasts like a sword wielding venus of willendorf.

I doubt Nekima would like to attract humans like that. Also nothing about her sais she would try to beguile anyone. She's about violent, bloody murder. 

[Sybarite]

5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I don't think she's trying to flaunt her femininity. There were plenty of barbarian tribes fighting more or less naked if we go back to pre-monotheistic times. I don't think nephilim are modest in the sense that we humans are.

They probably weren't wearing thongs though ^^'

[cohenthebarbarian]

17 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

From a design perspective, this was meant to tie the plastic nekima to the original nephilim, the tots, young, and mature are pretty much just wearing loincloths. If you're talking the metal original, I think it was because the nephilim were a fantasy world transplant out of a D&D monster manual, back when malifaux's asthetic felt like a game of smash-up.

If you're talking in universe reasons, nekima would gladly run around naked and covered in blood rather than wear the clothing of those disgusting human vermin. She looks down her nose at her sister and I assume barbaros for wearing human clothing and armor. But she still has her modesty so a tasteful two piece is in order, also it keeps her from getting too chilly when she flies.

Of course there's an argument to be made for her using her sexuality to intimidate and project her femininity. Nothing says, "I'm the true mother of monsters!" quite like bearing your hips and breasts like a sword wielding venus of willendorf.

That's interesting. On a completely unoffical theory, demons are made by humans, so Victorian-esque humans (and known victorian-age writers..:) made demons in underwear or wearing animal skins.... Lilith opened the Breach expecting that humans, their "creators", evolve their demon personification when they face each other, so Neverborn would have more power and humans would be doomed by soulstones. What really happened nobody knows, but it looks like humans adapted, as always, and started to create monsters in more sophisticated outfits, like the widow weaver, or the new Barbaros:) So in brief: Neverborn clothes are part of the human imagination when we "see" one... in fact we humans cannot perceive them on their real form, that's also why creatures like Lucius or the Doppleganger exist in Malifaux

Anyway, my Nekima is not painted yet, so I'll modify it a little and transform her nylon bikini into a fur-like bikini to go better with the tots and nephilims... and waiting to put my hands on a new dressed-like-lilith Nekima one day

[RodneyAnon]

It's possible that Nekima might be based on the myth of the Succubus. Remember that in some cultures (particularly in the past), female sexuality scared the bejesus out of the ruling Patriarchy. It's oddly serendipitous that  I noticed this topic tonight, as I've been painting a Nekima model. I've been teaching my wife the game and when I asked her which models she liked, she immediately picked out Nekima saying "She's sexy, strong and intimidating."  

I play as Guild*. My wife plays as Neverborn. This is Life!

 

*Mainly Lucius, so don't hate me.

[Ludvig]

16 hours ago, Sybarite said:

They probably weren't wearing thongs though ^^'

I take it to simply mean that Wyrd didn't want to go all Kingdom Death and put genitals all over the place. Or well, I'm not saying they didn't want to but they seem to have dcided against it in the end.

[Sybarite]

She couldve just had a loincloth like the mature. Wouldve looked so much better.

[catbat07]

Personally, I would like to see more Nephilim adopt human fighting styles like Barbaros. You would think that they would respect the power it would give them, and even if they hat humans, it doesn't mean that some of them wouldn't adopt their successful techniques.

[Sybaris]

Interesting that i feel the other way (but i understand what you mean, it's fine either way), it's just that i want them to be the villains in that setting, to be the evil monsters. And we have alot of ninjas and martial artists around Malifaux. Nephilims are probably the face of the Neverborn, in that they are easily recogniseable and operate in a more obvious, militaristic manner. An organised force, if you will. In that sense, i like their wild and brutal way to be represented in their gear. That's the reason i never liked lilith...she's too civilised to my tastes

Depending on how this model turns out to be, it might be possible ot model out the clothes for a more barbaric appearance...at least i think i'll attempt it if i can get my hands on 2 kits.

[-Loki-]

They're not completely averse to using weapons. Tots use punch daggers, Lilitu use barbed steel whips, Barbaros, Nekima and Lilith all use greatswords and Shamans have their ceremonial knives. However, they dislike guns. There's little story for the Scion of Black Blood, there someone, I'm assuming Lilith, is talking about the audacity of some 'converted' humans using blood magic. But, like 'dishonourable' human weapons, it's good to have some who know how to use them around. The only human weapons they're shown not natively using are guns, aside from Hayrediin who is a pariah anyway.

[Sybaris]

It's actually Nekima who writes/talk on the Scion and the Bloodwretches description. She lets the Blood Shamans have a little fun in return for support...

[-Loki-]

Ah, fair enough. However, I'd expect Lilith to share that sentiment. Whilst she and Nekima are at extreme odds with each other over the leadership of the Nephilim, both share absolute hatred for humankind and want them out of Malifaux. Liliths appearance seems more in line with her ascending through 'guile and cunning' than raw strength, coupled with the fact that stories often have her among humans. Walking around in human styled clothes would allow her to go about her business a bit more freely (despite being quite infamous) than walking around in a loincloth or bikini.

Reading through Liliths bio again in the core rulebook, and something always stuck out to me. It mentions the Neverborn being united by Lilith and her sisters. Plural. I wonder if we'll ever meet Liliths other sister/s.

[Sybaris]

So you're saying Lilith could be more of a unique kind of Nephilim rather than an offspring of the Tot-Young-Mature line?  That her appearance is not just a choice but a reflection of her mindset, while her sister evolved more into the more usual steps. Could be an interesting twist...in that lilith would be forced to wear the face of the enemy after all? There's very few nephilim females apart from masters and henchmen. The only example we have is the lilitu, so we don't really know what they usually look like or what the typical maturing process is like.

My annoyance with lilith is that she behaves/looks like a human character everywhere in the stories, even in front of Titania's court. I mean if you're attending to a diplomatic event and trying to convince a species that you're the rightful leader, wearing their hated foe's face ain't driving the right nail in imho.

 

 

[-Loki-]

Lilith obviously isn't part of the Tot-Young-Mature growth cycle, and neither is Nekima. Both are rather unique. The fact that Lilith was the 'first' Neverborn would indicate she's unique.

The growth cycle also isn't all encompassing. They all start as Tots but at some point, likely at the Young stage, there's divergences. Shamans obviously don't grow into the hulking stature of a  Mature. Lelus and Lilitus are specifically said to be a divergent growth path for certain brother/sister pairs. I doubt it's all pairs but they're not unique.

It's quite obvious that there's much more to the Nephilim species - more so than any other Neverborn species - and we just don't have miniatures for them, and if there's no miniatures there's not much point in exploring the issue in Malifaux.

This is why I'm looking forward to the Neverborn TtB book, there's more scope to explore the Neverborn 'race' and the different subspecies, especially when the basics from Malifaux are already covered in the core book.

[Adran]

23 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Lilith obviously isn't part of the Tot-Young-Mature growth cycle, and neither is Nekima. Both are rather unique. The fact that Lilith was the 'first' Neverborn would indicate she's unique.

The growth cycle also isn't all encompassing. They all start as Tots but at some point, likely at the Young stage, there's divergences. Shamans obviously don't grow into the hulking stature of a  Mature. Lelus and Lilitus are specifically said to be a divergent growth path for certain brother/sister pairs. I doubt it's all pairs but they're not unique.

It's quite obvious that there's much more to the Nephilim species - more so than any other Neverborn species - and we just don't have miniatures for them, and if there's no miniatures there's not much point in exploring the issue in Malifaux.

This is why I'm looking forward to the Neverborn TtB book, there's more scope to explore the Neverborn 'race' and the different subspecies, especially when the basics from Malifaux are already covered in the core book.

Going back to first edition, Lelu and Lilitu both had actions that allowed the growing of a nephlim to the other twin. I can't remember the exact wording, but it wasn't uncommon to turn a  cherub into one of the twins. 

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 6/3/2017 at 5:42 PM, Sybaris said:

Interesting that i feel the other way (but i understand what you mean, it's fine either way), it's just that i want them to be the villains in that setting, to be the evil monsters. And we have alot of ninjas and martial artists around Malifaux. Nephilims are probably the face of the Neverborn, in that they are easily recogniseable and operate in a more obvious, militaristic manner. An organised force, if you will. In that sense, i like their wild and brutal way to be represented in their gear. That's the reason i never liked lilith...she's too civilised to my tastes

Depending on how this model turns out to be, it might be possible ot model out the clothes for a more barbaric appearance...at least i think i'll attempt it if i can get my hands on 2 kits.

Uh, by "Villains" I assume you mean "Native species that are trying to preserve their lands against the gorram Guild and their assorted detritus" right?  I mean, everyone knows the Neverborn are the heroes of Malifaux.  Humans literally breached their world, moved in, and started ripping the heart from the land.  

[-Loki-]

Yeah, I have to say one of the reasons I like playing the Neverborn is they're not outright villains, depending on the master. Lilith is probably the least villainous of them all. Her methods are cruel and violent, but all she wants is humans out of Malifaux. It's her land, not theirs, and their only purpose is to strip mine the place of soulstones, and their presence is corrupting due to their desire to learn death magic.

[Vorschlag]

I won't go on my full rant, but in brief dnd alignments don't work if you want any kind of depth to characters, personalities are far too complex to lump into poorly developed concepts of "good" vs "evil".
Evil really only means unethical or immoral so expecting an alien species to have the same ethics and morals as you is (insert less than pleasant derogatory term regarding intelligence here).
To the neverborn the humans who have invaded their world and risked waking the sleeping tyrants may appear, "evil" but the suggestion in the fluff seems to be that they are a necessary evil for combating the tyrants in the coming battle (cannon fodder?).
To Humans the Neverborn are probably considered evil (by the uneducated) wholly alien (by the academics) or somewhere in between (by everyone else) for the neverborn or at least the Nephilim ressurectionists are "evil" or at least taboo which is probably a uniting factor between at least two separate cultures.

 

From what little we know of Malifaux's history Neverborn of one form or another lived or at least existed within the city and the city contained stores and tomes on all manner of magic including the magics now seperately studied by the arcanists and ressurectionists.
But according to the fluff modern Malifaux is also built over the top of ancient Malifaux which would have had a different culture and ethos again.

In theory the entire neverborn faction and world of Malifaux could be more of an essence flavoured and shaped by the conscious and unconscious hopes, dreams, fears and malice of  the entities that dwell within the realm at any given time, this would reinforce the idea that the neverborn are given shells but their true form cannot be seen (as per Lucius' rant to the painter) and would work with why so many Neverborn are entangled by the myths and legends of earth or the psyche of humans.
This concept in theory seems supported by the reference to soulstones as aether but doesn't particularly work with Gremlins (supposedly neverborn) and beastial creatures (silurids, waldgiest etc ) who are clearly able to exist outside of Malifaux (through the breach).
This is of course complete conjecture. 

[Sybaris]

18 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

Uh, by "Villains" I assume you mean "Native species that are trying to preserve their lands against the gorram Guild and their assorted detritus" right?  I mean, everyone knows the Neverborn are the heroes of Malifaux.  Humans literally breached their world, moved in, and started ripping the heart from the land.  

I've always been the DM in all the rpg's i've played, so i have always taken the side of the "evil" faction from a human/player character perspective. This is how TTB was written in the first place, too (the odds of getting a neverborn character is extremely slim). Of course we all know that the guild ain't nice and that there's alot of bad stuff going on with humans while neverborn sometimes look like the real victims out there (waldgeist in particular), but that's what makes the world interesting...it's not black or white. Still, from a roleplaying point of view, which is about following human characters as they cross the breach, nephilim are a stereotypical villains, and Nekima can certainly be seen as a stereotypical nemesis (obvious, brutal, dangerous), and i like it like that, even more so if there is actually more depth behind the appearances.

[cohenthebarbarian]

I prefer playing Neverborn but I agree no faction represent the good or bad guys, Even the worst (from my point of view) faction: Resurrectionist, children killers, have nice stories (Kirai/Molly story on book 1).

So as a Neverborn (and sometimes Guild) player, my crew is always "the good guys", even an angry Nekima fights for the good cause

Referring to the Guild, their "moral" balance is simply beautiful and one of the reasons I'm so addicted to Malifaux