Models in Gremlins which you feel are a bit lackluster

[daniello_s]

Which models do you think are a bit lackluster in our faction and why?

I'll start with my pick: Moon Shinobi.

They are neither fast (no Reckless) nor hit hard enough to be taken seriously in this faction. What's worst they have almost no vital synergy with Brewie and for 6SS there is plenty enough better options (within +/- 1SS difference) than those guys. 

How to help them? 

I think errata for them is almost necessary. Drop cost to 5SS and get either immune to Poison and free 3-4''  push at the upkeep phase when Poison is resolved orReckless and healing from Poison rather than taking a damage.

What do you think? What other models would you put here and how would you help them to be fielded more often?

[Omenbringer]

I tend to agree that the Moon Shinobi is our worst model. I think your errata's are a good start to make them worthwhile (right now they compete with Fermented River Monks who out class them quite a bit). I might also add an Enforcer model that provides some of those modifiers that could make them more viable options. Perhaps based on this guy:

I would also look at Sparks and the Mechanical Porkchop as likely models in need of something else.

[codingCaptor]

There are a variety of problems with our mid range minion models.   Part of that problem is competition and a lack of purity in purpose.  The Hog Whisperer, Bayou Gators, and the Moon Shinobi are the only models in the 5-6 ss range who don't have the ability to attack at both melee and range.   All the 5-6ss models have comparable damage tracks.   All the 5ss models have access to 3AP in one way or another.

Slop Hauler's heal good.   Lightning Bugs ignore Armor and Incorporeal.   Hog whisperers do things to pigs.   Rooster Riders are Walk 7.   Those are the units I'd leave alone.

Everything else needs something to make them interesting and worth considering in their own list.    We need to figure out if gremlins are going to have a real Construct list and if so we need to either buff up the survivors or give us a construct support model that makes all our constructs finally Synergize.   Bayou Bushwhackers need their self-damage dropped to 1 (although you can already do this with lenny so... I have a new list to try)   Moon Shinobi need reckless.   Bayou Gators just need ANYTHING, a buff to df, a buff to hit, a buff to damage, something to make them an interesting model.  

Hell, those changes can come at the cost of other things.  Maybe the bushwhackers don't need crit strike on their melee (although a somer/2skeeter/lenny list throwing out maximum rams is hilarious, as no one expects you to punch them in the face for 7/8/9 damage)   Moon shinobi could lose some damage.  Whatever.    They just need something that gives us reason to take them over some lightning bugs.   Or another Slop hauler.   I would rather take another slop hauler, than a bushwhacker, even if I'm trying to deal ranged damage.   This is not okay.

 

On top of that, the whiskey golem is also terrible.   Statistically worse than our Emmissary, a model I can't bring myself to hire in most lists as is.

[maca1066]

I have found uses for both whiskey golemn (a great scheme runner and flank holder( and 3 gators with Mctavish in Mah tucket (at ml6 they become a real threat)

I can not see a need for moon shinobi, they are sub optimal in every-way. the other issue i faction has is some undercosted models such as Burt that skew gremlin players thinking.

My final point is we are in my experience the worst faction for group thinking in accepting what models are good and what models are bad. 

[codingCaptor]

16 minutes ago, maca1066 said:

I have found uses for both whiskey golemn (a great scheme runner and flank holder( and 3 gators with Mctavish in Mah tucket (at ml6 they become a real threat)

I can not see a need for moon shinobi, they are sub optimal in every-way. the other issue i faction has is some undercosted models such as Burt that skew gremlin players thinking.

My final point is we are in my experience the worst faction for group thinking in accepting what models are good and what models are bad. 

I agree, and I think part of that is that a lot of our units aren't BAD.    Take those gators for example, at ML6 they become a threat in a mah tucket list.   Sure!   Heck, even outside of a mah list, 5 points for a AV 5 Melee Expert model is a great deal!

 

But for the same price point, I could have taken Survivors (Who now becomes ML 6, hit harder, and can hit at range.  ANd are reckless, so they also have 3 AP)    Or Just taken a lightning bug (reckless, 3 attacks, similar damage spread, innate cast 6, ignores armor and incorporeal.)

Taking a lightning bug is a better idea than taking a Gator, even in a mah tucket crew where gators get +1AV and Bugs don't.    THAT is the problem with gators.

We just have so many good models in the 5 or 7 SS pool (Lightning bugs, Burt Jebsen, Francois, Slop Haulers)   that merely average models don't cut it.

I have a similar problem with the Whiskey golem.   For the same point cost, I could take Gracie, Fingers, or The Emmissary.   All of which will perform better at scheme running and/or flank holding.    It's not that the whiskey golem has no use, it's that there are other 10 point models that fills all of it's useful niches better than it can.

I Don't think our models are BAD, I just think we need to rearrange some stats or abilities on our existing models so that they have a chance to get their own niche and fill their own roles.   We have too many REALLY GOOD models overshadowing our average ones.

[daniello_s]

It;s not about models being bad but about loosing competition with other models and therefore not-seeing them too often. I don't want Moon Shinobis to be super-killy or anything like it. I want them to be in the place where I can say: OK, I think they will be better here than Rooster Riders, additional Slop Hauler/Lighting Bug etc.

[Math Mathonwy]

15 hours ago, maca1066 said:

I can not see a need for moon shinobi, they are sub optimal in every-way.

They do circumvent certain defenses better than anyone (hello, Yin!). Now, this is naturally a bit of a gamble since you don't know whether your enemy will have such defenses and that you can threaten them and that your Shinobis survive to do so but still. I have used them a lot when going less full throttle against newer players and they often perform surprisingly well. The ability to choose the defensive stat is amazingly powerful and as long as you have something with Poison they have a sort of a pseudo third AP with their (0)Action.

15 hours ago, maca1066 said:

My final point is we are in my experience the worst faction for group thinking in accepting what models are good and what models are bad. 

I don't think so. Or at least it seems that on these forums all models get defended, more or less. But I don't think that we have any true stinkers like pre-Upgrade Oiran or whatever. Even Bushwhackers truly suck only within theme and they are only mildly over-priced when taken with someone else than Mah.

[Dogmantra]

y'all harshing on moon shinobis :c

I agree they're not as powerful as a Burt or Francois but I think they're a] better than people give em credit for and b] costed/powered appropriately for the health of the game. In support of a], they have a very slightly weaker version of Loudest Squeel which is tbqh one of the best defensive triggers in the game and I don't think it can be understated how useful that is. They have a pretty great statline for a Gremlin minion, and imo the step up from Df 5 to Df 6 is more significant than other +1s because it moves you from being on par with the "standard" attack stat of 5 to being on par with the more elite 6. They're also very hard to shut down without outright killing them - they can pick which stat to target, and hitting them with s only makes them more powerful whereas it's normally sentencing a model to uselessness for the turn.

In support of b], Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu is an incredibly disruptive ability. Its main power isn't in making you deal lots of damage, it's in draining cards from your opponent. When your damage flip is on a single , you have a ~60% chance of getting weak, and I definitely play around the assumption that a damage flip on negatives will probably be weak. You can't make that assumption for Moon Shinobis, and you have to trust chance to get you a low flip. Cheating to put people on a damage is a core part of the game, but Shinobis ignore that and instead force your opponent to cheat to beat if they want to avoid taking a lot of damage. It also turns defensive abilities into a liability (Yin, Jack Daw and Zoraida are good examples, all of which give out an inherent to hit them for Shinobis) and imo together those are disruptive enough to make for a true "negative play experience" where the rules are a kind of bait and switch, teaching people the mechanics one way then pulling the rug out and making them work a different way. I know when I play Moon Shinobis with new players they often find them really hard to get their head around and I think even for a seasoned player they do fundamentally change the way you approach a core mechanic. It's also why I think they have to have fairly low Ml to stop them being an unstoppable powerhouse of double positive damage flips.

anyway I flippin love em

[maca1066]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I don't think so. Or at least it seems that on these forums all models get defended, more or less. But I don't think that we have any true stinkers like pre-Upgrade Oiran or whatever. Even Bushwhackers truly suck only within theme and they are only mildly over-priced when taken with someone else than Mah.

you may be right but but as @codingCaptor said we have some excellent models which stops many of us looking 'outside the box'.

back to the gators, people complain that a lot of models cant keep up with Mah and are too slow to get use out of her and she ends up left out on a limb. now 3 from the shadow gators are excellent support for her (they are insignificant anyway so lose nothing from from the shadows) McTavish has such threat he can still influence the board around Mah.

now I'm not saying I'm a ninja list builder or synergy finder but if I automatically dismissed the gators for lightning bugs I would never have tried this list to find out how effective it is against a lot of opponents due to the high amount of pressure. 

now outside of this list the wild boars would be better but I think the 3 AP and the fact most opponents have never encountered gators makes up for the requirement for a 1ss upgrade on McTavish.

on a different note I think this is a good debate to have to work out what models need changing to gain a unique selling point as MyhticFox talks about on a number of podcasts.

and finally I really need to try the emissary as I don't own him yet.

[Eorek]

Just a thought. Would a gator be viable in a zoraida crew to paralyse a voodoo doll? 

Add mctavish to the mix and you got yourself something that both helps zoraida with her paralyse tech and assists mctavish

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, Eorek said:

Just a thought. Would a gator be viable in a zoraida crew to paralyse a voodoo doll?

Theoretically yes, but you could pay one stone more for a Nurse who can paralyse a voodoo doll with the same suit needed but no requirement to deal severe damage*, from a further range, and is also capable of dealing out a lot of poison or other nasty conditions through the doll. Alternatively if you want no suit requirement at all, the Pigapult can do it with its tactical and simply place the Voodoo Doll in exactly the same spot to paralyse it.

 

 

*and actually because there's no damage required the doll can relent so you'll never need to cheat to ensure a hit, plus she can get the suit through even on a black jokered attack flip via illegible prescriptions.

[wizuriel]

Underpowered

-Whiskey Golem - Honestly if the 0 upgrade was built in I would say he is fine. 

-Moon Shinobi - Problem with them is they can't get where they need if the opponent has any ranged attacks. I would give them either: From The Shadows, Some ability where instead of taking damage from poison they heal 1 or built in soft cover (Drunk Luck). Would also increase the MI of roundhouse to 5 with a built in 

-Bushwackers - Yeah no idea how to make these guys useful

-hog whisperer - I just don't think their concept works anymore with models like old major or the hog whisperer concept. Maybe make Sooey a (0) action?

-Mah

Meh (not too bad, but slightly underpowered)

-Gators

-Wild Boars

-Ophelia - Give her instinctual and need to buff her gun upgrades

-Mancha 

Slightly OP

-Burt (increase cost by 1 imo)

-Slop Haulers (lower damage)

-Pigapult

OP

-Fingers (should have a TN and possible also give poison 1 on his heal)

-Somer: Lower his gun damage to 2/2/4 and change thinking luck to a 3/5/6 damage profile. This should put him more inline between Ophelia's damage and Wong's AOE damage. 

 

[Eorek]

a shift I'd love to see is francois losing his infinity trigger on shooting and his brother raphael gaining it... would balance both those 2 models abit.

it's sorta unfair that franc copied bot santiagos shooting and fransiscos melee while raphael only got the running away part of nino

[Omenbringer]

On 4/3/2017 at 10:56 PM, codingCaptor said:

Moon Shinobi need reckless.  

Reckless wouldn't be that great on them as they would just die quicker. They really need some method of generating lots of flips to make them viable. From the Shadows is a worthwhile ides, particularly given the fluff.

[EpicWaffle]

Havne't seen anyone talking about him, but there is almost no occasion where I would bring Mancha Roja with me. He has a lot of good stff, but he eats resorces like crazy and I never manage to do something ''important'' aside from punchng a couple of times something before having him dead, since it's impossible to hide him. Also, for 10ss we have way better choices.. 

[EpicWaffle]

On 5/4/2017 at 3:57 PM, wizuriel said:

 

-Somer: Lower his gun damage to 2/2/4 and change thinking luck to a 3/5/6 damage profile. This should put him more inline between Ophelia's damage and Wong's AOE damage. 

 

Damn, that's a hella of a cuddle :|

[Ludvig]

If you don't like Shinobi you haven't tried them together with nurses. Positives to everything and armour +2, yes please! I think a lot of the "bad" models in gremlins are underused because some models are just too good for their low stone cost. Burt Jebsen springs to mind. 

[Math Mathonwy]

27 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If you don't like Shinobi you haven't tried them together with nurses. Positives to everything and armour +2, yes please!

They are very funny then but the logistics of the whole thing is a bit difficult (the Nurse has to keep up with the Shinobi and the combo costs 12 SS and is only doable with Zoraida. Lots of fun, though, agreed.

27 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I think a lot of the "bad" models in gremlins are underused because some models are just too good for their low stone cost. Burt Jebsen springs to mind. 

I suppose so but OTOH I think that 90% of the faction are not lackluster so either 90% of the faction are overpowered or that 10% are indeed somewhat lackluster.

[Math Mathonwy]

38 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

Havne't seen anyone talking about him, but there is almost no occasion where I would bring Mancha Roja with me. He has a lot of good stff, but he eats resorces like crazy and I never manage to do something ''important'' aside from punchng a couple of times something before having him dead, since it's impossible to hide him. Also, for 10ss we have way better choices.. 

Agreed - he is one of the models that most often begs the question of "why not just take Burt (or even Francois) instead?"

[EpicWaffle]

7 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Agreed - he is one of the models that most often begs the question of "why not just take Burt (or even Francois) instead?"

Yeah, or to stay in the same bracket, Gracie and the Emissary works way better, with less reorces. Hell, even Mctavish is better than Mancha at punching. 

[Math Mathonwy]

2 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

Hell, even Mctavish is better than Mancha at punching. 

I wouldn't go quite that far - he is arguably even more squishy if you slingshot him forward  

[daniello_s]

That's for sure. Mr McTavish doesn't necessarily wants to be in the thickest fight. He prefers do spread his bullet-love from the distance

[Math Mathonwy]

6 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

That's for sure. Mr McTavish doesn't necessarily wants to be in the thickest fight. He prefers do spread his bullet-love from the distance

His melee prowess is usually something of a nasty surprise to whoever comes near him rather him actually seeking out chances to use it himself. But I've had quite a few opponents who, after "cornering" him and then enduring his melee wrath desperately want to double check his card  

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

They are very funny then but the logistics of the whole thing is a bit difficult (the Nurse has to keep up with the Shinobi and the combo costs 12 SS and is only doable with Zoraida. Lots of fun, though, agreed.

I keep forgetting that as a primarily guild player my standard for convoluted combos that only make things barely workable is a lot higher than normal people's.

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I suppose so but OTOH I think that 90% of the faction are not lackluster so either 90% of the faction are overpowered or that 10% are indeed somewhat lackluster.

True true, some models would be hard to justify bringing in any faction. 

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

His melee prowess is usually something of a nasty surprise to whoever comes near him rather him actually seeking out chances to use it himself. But I've had quite a few opponents who, after "cornering" him and then enduring his melee wrath desperately want to double check his card  

I prefer his Melee attack a lot of the time because of the chance for a damage flip, which means you're less likely to hit the slightly underwhelming 2 weak damage. OTOH his 3" engagement range screws me over often because some chump will wander near him and suddenly he can't shoot anymore

 

On 05/04/2017 at 2:57 PM, wizuriel said:

-Somer: Lower his gun damage to 2/2/4 and change thinking luck to a 3/5/6 damage profile. This should put him more inline between Ophelia's damage and Wong's AOE damage.

My preferred "fix" to Som'er is based on the fact I'm disappointed in the Lenny errata. I'd rather have Lenny remain able to hand to masters but switch Thinkin Luck to a or . Weirdly I think it'd be a slight power down to Som'er (who has to use Do It Like Dis for a much less desirable suit if he wants to get his own Thinkin Luck) and a slight power up to Ophelia (who can use cards of a less commonly desired suit to hit Thinkin Luck and save the rams for her friends). Or perhaps make the kickback 1/2/3 based on the damage flip? IDK, but I think the current damage flips are cool and good.

 

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

They are very funny then but the logistics of the whole thing is a bit difficult (the Nurse has to keep up with the Shinobi and the combo costs 12 SS and is only doable with Zoraida. Lots of fun, though, agreed.

Well, I'd argue that if you're playing Zoraida you should probably be bringing a Nurse anyway so it's less 12 stones to facilitate a combo and more like 6 stones plus something you were going to bring anyway