Character Progression and Economy are Broken in Through the Breach

[Budoman]

I apologize in advance for the very long forum post, I tried to condense it but there is a lot to this post needed to explain my point.

I played a Through the Breach campaign with 4 other player over the course of about 6 months. I generally like the game. I like the card system, this works well instead of dice, I like the idea of fates and I enjoy the world.

However, once the characters began leveling, the scaling became an increasing problem. This seems like a major design flaw in the game. RPGs are generally based around two fundamental rewards for the player characters. One is leveling the characters so they increase in power, the second is being able to hand out increasingly cooler and better loot as the character get stronger. Both of these are in the game but both have big problems from my perspective.

The first is with increasing powers of characters. One issue is that fated characters, per the book, are extremely strong out of the gate. More so for the combat classes than others. I just ran the Sixteen Tons adventure as a campaign starter. In this seesion three first level characters took out 8 minions and an enforcer without resting and it was about right. But if characters are that strong to begin with, then what is the point of peon level monsters. In our previous games, a third level mercenary that we had did enough damage that they could drop a henchman in 1 round. Should I start throw in Masters at level 4?

So with a level 5 group, how strong should an opposing group be? In most other RPG systems there are tables in the gamemaster guides for this.

The guidance in the book is not really guidance – it basically says, just throw some monsters at the group and see how strong they are, then adjust. The problem with this approach is that players come to each game with new talents. So how much stronger are they now? The old test no longer applies. So you spend the game testing again – but when you are done, the session is over and now they are even stronger.

The encounter balance really needs to be thought out more. Right now the system drops all the heavy lifting onto the fatemaster. It makes it difficult to run the encounters in a balanced way. I’m sure there is a lot of thought put into the balance in the miniatures game. Why not here?

The second issue is the economy. A guild script is about $20 (per the Sixteen Tons book). The 25 starting script, basically gives a character whatever weapon they want, maybe 2. If you limit script, the players get angry. If you don’t limit it they become powerful early and have nowhere for you to take them as they progress. You basically have to start dropping artifact items to give them something better. There is no building or progression of loot.

The loot is what makes a RPG fun for many players. The overpowered mercenary that I mentioned above had the most power rifle in the Fated Almanac from the outset. With this character's talents, even though the rifle is single shot with a long reload, the character could instantly reload it with a speed loading and specialized skill talent combo. This player started complaining (justifiably) that better guns were not dropping, but there weren’t better guns to go to. The player already had basically the strongest one in the Fated Almanac and had it at the outset. I could make up an artifact gun but the character was already overpowered.

There should be some progression of wealth. A level 5, what wealth should a character have? At level 12? If you have someone join a game late how much should they start with?

Then comes the issue of soulstones being out of reach of most character’s wealth but needed for magic classes and especially for tinkerers. Yet if you drop this the characters have so much money, they could retire.

So I have some house rule solutions that I am using as a workaround for economy aspect of the game and help give some structure to leveling. These home rules are as follows (I would like your comments):

Because the society in TtB is controlled by the heavy hand of the Guild's tyranny, weapons and martial equipment are heavily controlled by the Guild and anyone who has a lot of weapons is a potential threat to their power. Other factions, while not agreeing with the guild, generally go along with this because they have their own suppliers and keeping weapons away from the common people keeps them strong as well. So for the average Fated, armor is 5x the book value, weapons are 10x, and modifications are 20x the price (because people cannot openly practice weapon making without trouble from the Guild). Mundane gear and ammo pricing is unchanged.

I allow classes that would start with a rifle etc. to start with a legacy firearm (they come through the breach poor). I haven’t quite figured out how best to deal with skill kit pricing or starting pneumatic limbs for say a drudge.

For the weapons, this does a few things for the game dynamic. First, people actually use the legacy weapons. Second, it makes it meaningful to get a hold of decent weapon, and even more meaningful to have that weapon fully modded and awesome for them to find an artifact. In other words, it gives a progression to the gear and lets it progress with the character and allows the players to take jobs for good script without them owning everything they need at 3^rd level. Last it lets the Fatemaster make more use of the lower level monsters early on because it is a fair challenge for the Fated with reduced gear.

I do not have a good solution for balancing encounters. It doesn’t seem the Fatemaster's book's advice works. I generally have to consider my characters good at combat even from the start. If anyone has a points system or good advice on this, it would be nice to have a formula or table based on the character level and monster level to balance this. What is a normal encounter for each level and the number of players? What is an Epic encounter?

[Shadowopal]

Broken is a term thrown around too loosely. Not every game is the same.  This is one that should not focus on combat and reward role playing. However,  if your players are wanting nothing but card flipping,  then maybe adjust the numbers and levels of the NPC's. Your players only have so many actions. Swarms of mid level foes will quickly take down even a leveled group. Do the players worry about the mid level foes that are in close combat or take some hits to get a few shots in on the big baddy? If you give them. More than one kind of threat and adjust the numbers of the lower tier baddies,  the choices get tougher. They might look at trying to stealth past the group of NPC's next time. 

I have found that there is not a game in existence where a savvy group will not easily pass through a pre-written adventure as written. After 30+ years of game mastering too many Rpg's to list and playing in games run by some. Of the most awesome GM's I have seen,  I have decided that part of being a Game master is reading your group and adjusting the adventure as needed. If the party blows through the written encounter's fight sequence, maybe have the gunfire draw unwanted attention and re-enforcements of a higher caliber and/or number. Or maybe have them get captured and remove them from their gear. I had a player that munchkined his character to be out of range of the main combat yet still able to take down a model a turn. Problem was that he was stuck by himself across the board when the returning scouts arrived on the board and his close combat skills were non-existant. He learned to take some skills other than shooting. 

As for economy,  if you are finding the characters have too much, I suggest you  adjust it. Maybe the characters are robbed in the night and their adventure could be finding who stole the goods and track them down. It is Malifaux.... Bad things happen. Or maybe supply trains have been robbed frequently and the costs have gone up. Sure you have that nice rifle. But the general store only has 3 bullets in Stock at the moment.  Maybe there is a fire in the city and rooms are scarce so the price for housing goes up. Sorry sir, the hotel is booked but I might be able to find a bed for the right price.  

Also,  maybe they don't get a monetary reward or item of power every session. Some towns in need are really just that. A town in need with little to offer in terms of reward. 5 gold and a party is often said around our gaming table no matter what system we are playing. We have raided corporations for less. We have protected rail shipments simply to make sure that an outlying town has food for the month. Did we accept favors? Absolutely. Sometimes obscure knowledge about the badlands is worth more than a fistful of script. 

If your players get upset at this... Maybe it isn't the system they want to play. Not every system works for a group of players.  Doesn't make it a bad system.  Just not the right choice for the group. It happens. Only options are to 1) discuss it and either tweak the system or change the players' gaming perspective or 2) find a system that works as your players want it to and go with that. But either way,  it relies on the game master doing work. That is the unfortunate responsibility of the gamemaster we do a lot of work.  If we are lucky,  the players appreciate that work and try to help the gamemaster tell a good story. But some players need to be helped to understand that roleplaying is more than throwing dice or flipping cards. 

The number of combats my players face are few. I encourage them to diversify their skills and swap pursuits. I plan a lot of investigative and stealth missions.  Going around blasting things at random has taught them to be more choosey about the combats they get evolved in. My job is to make sure the players are challenged. Not to sit and watch them flip cards. Why would I sign up for that when I can play Malifaux and get to flip the cards myself?

But,  I always talk with my players before starting a campaign to find out what they are looking for in the game. Do their needs match my storytelling style? If not,  I let them know how I typically run my games and see if we can't find some middle ground where they will roleplaying more and I will try to have combats that are challenging for the party. So far there has only been one player that really didn't get that Through the Breach is not Malifaux. He did not enjoy the game. I sat down and talked with him and told him that RPG's reward roleplaying and if that isn't his thing,  then maybe he really didn't want to roleplay and maybe should try to set up some miniature games instead. He is much happier with that and that is great.  Not everyone is a roleplayer.

I will shut up there as I think I have been too preachy. But,  short story.... Tweak your players or tweak your game. But let's try to do away with "broken" as the go to term.

[Ampers&nd]

I can't really add anything to Shadowopal's comments here, other than to agree with them! It comes down to the sort of game your players want to play, and the sort of players you have.

 

I've never played in a group like my fated before, having been used to more simple systems with the same betters stats/better loot pay off that you describe, but my guys are weird.. One session they just had a 'business meeting' and as a group spent all their money building and running a saloon/brothel, and are happy to continue spending scrip in this way on out-of-game benefits and wealth. They are also weird at looting- last game one of them was happier with a fancy suede hat than with the weapons... 

 

Try giving them interesting loot, if not powerful- soulstone ammo, valuable books, gremlin hooch, Guild guard badges or union membership papers are all things I've left lying around (whether they found them or not) 

<also for reasons I am unsure of I can't like Shadowopals post, or else I would!> 

[Shadowopal]

1 minute ago, Ampers&nd said:

 

<also for reasons I am unsure of I can't like Shadowopals post, or else I would!> 

I am just an unlikeable person.

[Mason]

Much like Legend of the Five Rings or Call of Cthulhu, Through the Breach really isn't a game about loot progression. In all three games, a character often starts with the same weapons and gear that they have at the end of the campaign. This can make these games difficult for players who are used to a more loot-centered progression as with D&D or Pathfinder.

As for combat, Minions and Enforcers are more or less the go-to for encounters, with Henchmen providing challenging opponents. You very much have to consider action point economy, however; if the Fated have four characters fighting against one opponent, they have a huge advantage, because they have 4x as many actions as their opponent. Adding multiple enforcers with Minions to support them can lead to more balanced fights. Remember that characters don't just fall over and die at 0 Wounds - they have to make an Unconsciousness Challenge, which some Enforcers and most Henchmen can automatically pass. That means they have to be killed or knocked unconscious through Critical Effects, which gives them some significant staying power.

That being said, Through the Breach is designed to be player-focused. The sessions resolve around the players and their destiny, and thus they shouldn't be coming within an inch of death in every fight. The system is weighted in their favor, and as such, they're more like action heroes than everymans. John McClain or Indiana Jones might get stabbed or shot up from time to time, they rarely find themselves bleeding out on the pavement, and that's very much the "pulp action hero" vibe that Through the Breach runs with.

[koronuslight]

*echoes what everyone else has said in here*

You can always add more big monsters. I actually look forward to the day when I have to pull the minis out of the display case and make them run a boss battle with terrain.

As for the economy of the game, I had one Fated take 5 scrip and turn it into 12 from Gambling for a half hour. Then everyone needed food and transportation, because Malifaux City is roughly the size of Houston and its surrounding suburbs (based on square mileage from the map). Then it was dark, so they needed rooms for the night. That 12 scrip became 7 real quick, then they still needed transport the next day. Looks like they're back to being near broke and need to take another job soon.

 

1 hour ago, Mason said:

John McClain or Indiana Jones might get stabbed or shot up from time to time, they rarely find themselves bleeding out on the pavement

Even when he was bleeding out in the bathroom at Nakatomi, he was still cracking jokes while pulling shards of glass. 

[Budoman]

 I somewhat expected, pushback on this.  But I do not feel my topic was truly addressed by any of the replies.  My two main points were that the rules and system make it difficult to reward my players with equipment or money and that it is difficult to balance encounters because there is little to no guidance or system for this in place to help me as a Fatemaster balance an encounter to my characters.  I am not saying the whole game is broken, just these parts of the game and I do believe broken is the correct term for what we experienced at the table.

Our first groups fatemaster, did just what Shadowopal suggested and limited the cash severely in the game.  So at the 6th session when the MSU offered the charaters 20 script for a job.  The players told the MSU and the fatemaster to shove it, they are not working for those wages.  So the fatemaster's planned session fell apart and the game mostly disbanded until a new fatemaster took over.

Wanting more power and loot and engaging battles are common themes that many if not most gamers coming to the table generally expect.  If the system can't accommodate them then it has abandoned a large part of the table top community.  This isn't in just pathfinder or D&D but name any offline or online RPG and you will find elements of progression because these are the basic drives for most people.  This goes for real life as well.  Someone just taking up guitar generally can't afford and it is not worth to them to buy a $5000 guitar, so they will get a $250 one.  It sounds okay but it could be better. However, for a professional musician, high quality equipment is worth it and the extra quality makes a difference.  But this type of equipment progression doesn't exist in a significant way in the TtB economy.
 

On 1/6/2017 at 0:06 AM, Shadowopal said:

If your players get upset at this... Maybe it isn't the system they want to play. Not every system works for a group of players.

This is not real advice.  So if and when some of the TtB players get upset at not getting rewards, I should just tell them screw off this game isn't for you.  I am trying to get more people interested in the game not chase them away.  I live in a city of 2 million people.  Of that maybe only a dozen show up to Malifaux miniatures weekly.  Five show up for Through the Breach, but according to this, I should tell them, sorry if you want rewards for your character you are out of luck.  That sounds broken to me.

So does anyone have some positive suggestions on how to balance the games economy and encounters so I can keep these players interested?

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Budoman said:

 I somewhat expected, pushback on this.  But I do not feel my topic was truly addressed by any of the replies.  My two main points were that the rules and system make it difficult to reward my players with equipment or money and that it is difficult to balance encounters because there is little to no guidance or system for this in place to help me as a Fatemaster balance an encounter to my characters.  I am not saying the whole game is broken, just these parts of the game and I do believe broken is the correct term for what we experienced at the table.

Our first groups fatemaster, did just what Shadowopal suggested and limited the cash severely in the game.  So at the 6th session when the MSU offered the charaters 20 script for a job.  The players told the MSU and the fatemaster to shove it, they are not working for those wages.  So the fatemaster's planned session fell apart and the game mostly disbanded until a new fatemaster took over.

Wanting more power and loot and engaging battles are common themes that many if not most gamers coming to the table generally expect.  If the system can't accommodate them then it has abandoned a large part of the table top community.  This isn't in just pathfinder or D&D but name any offline or online RPG and you will find elements of progression because these are the basic drives for most people.  This goes for real life as well.  Someone just taking up guitar generally can't afford and it is not worth to them to buy a $5000 guitar, so they will get a $250 one.  It sounds okay but it could be better. However, for a professional musician, high quality equipment is worth it and the extra quality makes a difference.  But this type of equipment progression doesn't exist in a significant way in the TtB economy.

No, really.  Imagine if you wanted to play a superhero game.  How many of the players would care about money as anything other than a means to an end?

When Call of Cthulhu was brought up, it was brought up for a reason.  No one gets rich investigating cults and thwarting ancient evils.  The best anyone does is make a living and accomplish their character goals.

1 hour ago, Budoman said:

This is not real advice.  So if and when some of the TtB players get upset at not getting rewards, I should just tell them screw off this game isn't for you.  I am trying to get more people interested in the game not chase them away.  I live in a city of 2 million people.  Of that maybe only a dozen show up to Malifaux miniatures weekly.  Five show up for Through the Breach, but according to this, I should tell them, sorry if you want rewards for your character you are out of luck.  That sounds broken to me.

So does anyone have some positive suggestions on how to balance the games economy and encounters so I can keep these players interested?

The mistake you're making is that you think giving the characters money and equipment is some sort of reward.  That sounds like you're trying to simulate working for a living.  Money and equipment aren't rewards, they're means to an end.  Accomplishing things is its own reward.  And for some characters, getting rich and living to retirement is part of their goal, but it's not everything.

There's a reason why character creation has that tarot reading step, and the sometime incomprehensible and/or vague fortune telling element.  Fate has a plan for the character, the character presumably has their own plan, and working out what happens is the point.

 

[solkan]

5 hours ago, Budoman said:

 Our first groups fatemaster, did just what Shadowopal suggested and limited the cash severely in the game.  So at the 6th session when the MSU offered the charaters 20 script for a job.  The players told the MSU and the fatemaster to shove it, they are not working for those wages.  So the fatemaster's planned session fell apart and the game mostly disbanded until a new fatemaster took over.

I'm replying to this separately, because I think both you and the fatemaster may have missed the point.

The M&SU offering the players 20 scrip for a job sounds like it was a mistake.  Simply because there aren't any jobs that you'd hire someone to do at 20 scrip.  Because $16 in 1900 was the price of a fancy suit.  So the players would probably be in the right to point out the historical problem and ask the fatemaster how much money they meant.  Obligatory link to one of the previous price threads:  http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/107574-sundries-services/

There's a disclaimer on associating 1900 American dollars and Guild Scrip because you can explain or impose arbitrary price controls because the Guild controls the rail line back to Earth.  But it's still a good reference point.

On the other hand, this is money in a magic parallel 1900's world in a city run by the Guild, not gold pieces being looted out of a dungeon.  Maybe I've been listening to too many 'podcast in the style of old time radio' dramas, but the general idea is "enough money to get you something you wanted (or a nice step in that direction) but that means whatever they want you to do is going to be trouble."

The gripping hand position, of course, is that there are different schools of thought concerning how to handle economics.  Some people don't want to have to sit down and work out how much money their players/characters are paying per day for food, housing, and transportation, and extend that to routine expenses like paper, bullets and guns.  Other people want to produce receipts and tax returns.

 

[Ampers&nd]

17 hours ago, Budoman said:

 I somewhat expected, pushback on this.  But I do not feel my topic was truly addressed by any of the replies.  My two main points were that the rules and system make it difficult to reward my players with equipment or money and that it is difficult to balance encounters because there is little to no guidance or system for this in place to help me as a Fatemaster balance an encounter to my characters.  I am not saying the whole game is broken, just these parts of the game and I do believe broken is the correct term for what we experienced at the table.

Our first groups fatemaster, did just what Shadowopal suggested and limited the cash severely in the game.  So at the 6th session when the MSU offered the charaters 20 script for a job.  The players told the MSU and the fatemaster to shove it, they are not working for those wages.  So the fatemaster's planned session fell apart and the game mostly disbanded until a new fatemaster took over.

Wanting more power and loot and engaging battles are common themes that many if not most gamers coming to the table generally expect.  If the system can't accommodate them then it has abandoned a large part of the table top community.  This isn't in just pathfinder or D&D but name any offline or online RPG and you will find elements of progression because these are the basic drives for most people.  This goes for real life as well.  Someone just taking up guitar generally can't afford and it is not worth to them to buy a $5000 guitar, so they will get a $250 one.  It sounds okay but it could be better. However, for a professional musician, high quality equipment is worth it and the extra quality makes a difference.  But this type of equipment progression doesn't exist in a significant way in the TtB economy.
 

This is not real advice.  So if and when some of the TtB players get upset at not getting rewards, I should just tell them screw off this game isn't for you.  I am trying to get more people interested in the game not chase them away.  I live in a city of 2 million people.  Of that maybe only a dozen show up to Malifaux miniatures weekly.  Five show up for Through the Breach, but according to this, I should tell them, sorry if you want rewards for your character you are out of luck.  That sounds broken to me.

So does anyone have some positive suggestions on how to balance the games economy and encounters so I can keep these players interested?

 

I think Mason and several others did give positive suggestions if you go back and re-read them rather than dismissing them out of hand, but that said i'll recap it and offer a few bits of advice myself. 

first I'll deal with encounters-

page 190 in the fatemasters almanac give some basic guidance you can use between each session to see what sort of encounters your players can handle- it also does say as you state to start with something basic and tweak it as you go along. This isn't an unusual idea in a roleplaying game, these aren't static computer games where the idea is to line up against a set challenge and 'beat' it, this is story-based game where the outcome is an advance to the individual fated's destiny. If the encounters are too hard and the fated cannot progress, they may as well not be playing at all. Similarly too easy and they may not feel they are taking part in a game. i use the following methods in addition to the advice on flips in the almanac- I'll give examples in parenthesis where it's relevant)

Step 1) Write basic encounters to fit the story for this session, select the antagonists and choose how many/where they are. (for this encounter against 3 fated it will be one necromancer (henchman with graverobber profile and summon abilities), one samurai with minigun, 2 ten thunder archers and 3 ten thunder brothers dressed as death marshalls spread out over a period of time)

Step 2) Take a look at the fated attending this session- what is going to challenge my fated, is it going to be too easy? simple fixes are-

• Lots of high damage/low attack fated- increase no of minions, decrease no of enforcers. (for me its a simple every fated combat skill above 5, every combat talent such as flurry, and every manifested power= +1 minion)
• Lots of high damage weapons- add incorporeal opponents or opponents with armour.
• Lots of high skill ranged attacks- add bulletproof or more cover in the encounter area.
• Lots of high skill Melee attacks- add terrifying or manipulative attacks. black blood or counterattacks abilities.
• Lots of high skill magical attacks/abilities- add counterspell auras, wards and abilities that negatively affect spellcasting.
• Lots of tricky triggers or abilities- give triggers and abilities to the antagonists that are in direct opposition to the abilities of individual fated.

(looking at my fated I notice that the strongest ranged fated were not attending this session, so this could mean the heavy ranged style of the early encounter could prove problematic and a bit harsh on my fated, so I drop both the archers and decide to add more enemies as I see fit. I'd already taken into account the fated's high damage output by outnumbering them, I'd also given both the samurai and the brothers armour 1. There is also a casting fated with a particularly nasty trigger/immuto combo so i need to watch that- the necromancer and samurai were given an ability to disallow enemy triggers against them. Finally I take into account the very high melee ability two of my fated have, with decent Df but poor Wp. I look through the books and see that a Wanyudo would be a great counter to this with Wp based attacks and incorporeal to neuter their damage output, this compensates for the lost archers without just being a turkey shoot)

Step 3) run the encounter- give players target numbers and triggers for antagonists but not abilities or general stats. If it starts to swing one way or another then add/take abilities from models as needed but make sure this fits the story (in this case the samurai's armour was stripped from him by a spell as he was causing a lot of damage. As the brothers died the necromancer resurrected them from a distance as punk zombies, though this took particular suits so he required card points to cast it- this limited the amount of summons so I didn't have to tweak it. The Wanyudo performed perfectly, being a hard to avoid and stop threat that forced players to co-operate to stop it.)

Step 4) takes notes and use this to plan later- what challenged the players, what made them genuinely afraid? was there something they very much enjoyed in the encounter or did they walk through it without breaking a sweat? use this for planning your next encounters and keep in mind any new skills or talents your fated take at the end. (the biggest takeaway for me here was that Wp based attacks freak my players out, so a few more of those would be coming in the near future) 

You mentioned before that the heavy lifting was all on the FM to ensure encounters stayed balanced, yes, yes it is. It has to be because they are the only person in the room that knows the whole story. maybe the fated are supposed to lose this one. maybe they need to take a kicking make the next encounter more horrifying. maybe they need the early encounters to be easy to lull them into a false sense of superiority. The FM knows this, and is responsible for seeing the story through as much as possible- it's about the players after all, not the NPC's.

part 2- loot progression;

now I'm not going to be as much help here, simply because the best roleplaying games I've ever played have almost 0 loot progression- star wars, Lot5R, gurps, Inquisitor, vampire and a few others. (At the end of an 8 year star wars campaign my character was wearing the same armour as he started with and carried the same gun, I'd had options to change, but they worked and story wise i wouldn't change them). Those with dedicated loot progression I have played seem more stilted and linear- I know this is what some people like but I don't, so Ive got limited advice.

that said- I like your fixes, I think the limited starting kit and price increases will work fine for what you are trying to achieve. It sounds like your players started of a bit too highly tooled up as it is, so it may be that you need them to get robbed/outlawed/bankrupted etc for a 'reset switch' moment (I did this to my boys recently, they are currently living in Nicodem's spare tower) 

For the toolkits  I would possibly consider changing their rules and giving several qualities of skill kit- apprentice(1), journeyman(2) and master(3). Each level of kit can only be used by a fated with a skill level that matches the toolkit level, and give better benefits as you progress. costs should be the equivalent of a legacy firearm/standard firearm/custom firearm, as for those players they are as crucial to their playstyle as a sword is to a mercenary. 

You could simply start the drudges with any pneumatic they like, but NOT the pneumatic skill initially (freshly implanted or simply unused) then give them the opportunity to increase the skill after the first session- this means initially they won't be able to cheat any attacks with that item, and this should balance out any benefits that it gives over other players.

I'd also like to restate my initial suggestions of giving loot and rewards that aren't based on immediate use in encounters, books of history or lore for academics,  rare items and magical ephemera, unusual ammunition or weaponry customisations (that they'll need an expert to fit). and so on. Give them something to spend their scrip on outside the straight up fight- rent, ammo, food, replacement clothes for when theirs are inevitably ruined by rogue necromancy vomit. If they do want better weaponry then use the custom weapon rules in into the steam to create some genuinely unique weapons. ask Bertmac on here about his 'equaliser' (or how to break the game in one very expensive gun that I've had to give negative triggers too, including a broken wrist..).

as to saying 'So if and when some of the TtB players get upset at not getting rewards, I should just tell them screw off this game isn't for you' unfortunately this is real advice, as harsh as that sounds. I hate D&D. with a passion I normally reserve for utter scum and stubbing my toe at night. Hates it. loathe entirely. I'd rather play 'who's got the sharpest claws' with Grizzle my cat (hint: it's usually Grizzle). my solution to this- I just don't play D&D. when my group switches to it's D&D rotation I take a break and get some more wargaming in until we switch again. This is not a judgement on the game- I understand that it was the roleplaying game that kept it all going, that started so many people on the hobby and that has a whole world of depth and nuance that I just don't get. The game isn't a bad game- it's just a bad game for me. Unfortunately this could just be the situation you are in. If your players can't see gaining the patronage of lucius and having a night in the star theatre on the house as an adequate reward for a favour done, then maybe TtB isn't the game for them.  

The other alternative is to keep the setting and story and just switch to a system you do like (we did this with star wars so i didn't have to switch to the D20 system, it's a bit of work for the GM but he'd rather keep the group together and stay with D6 then play space D&D)

anyway, hopefully some of this massive wall is useful!

[zeeblee]

As has been said, I think the core of the problem is that your players are used to/want to play Dungeons and Dragons (or Pathfinder or any other game with a well-defined set of challenge ratings and Diablo-style loot progression).

But if you're all dead set on playing Through the Breach in-system (instead of applying the setting to another system), then the above suggestions are great.  Other things you can do would be to set a sort of monetary investment goal for the group.  As Amers&nd mentioned, his group is funneling a lot of their gains into running a business.  This expands the reward pool outside of adventuring gear (guns and armor) and adds in things like employees, architecture/property, licenses/permits, tools of the trade (enchanted distillery!  Clockwork massage machine!), and other weird random stuff that doesn't give a to fighting.

In truth, if you want to hand out items that make your players better at killing, well the combat is going to get really funky.  There are many threads already sitting around discussing how the combat balance is currently in an odd goldilocks zone.  Enforcers are on par with starting players, but powerups and such will allow them to beat them relatively easily.  So you're stuck with either throwing enemies that require your players to flip/cheat only face cards (making combat a slog of failure) or sending large numbers of enemies at them to cause damage by attrition.  At this point your best bet is then to get REALLY into environmental setup in order to produce for your players and other hazards.  It is a lot of work, but I've found every game system that doesn't come with a Monster Manual filled with challenge ratings runs into the same Fatemaster/Gamemaster/Storyteller workload.  The alternative of course is to go combat-light, but it doesn't sound like that's the solution you're looking for.

[Budoman]

I want to thank Ampers&and for his comments.  Mostly what you say there as far as scaling encounters is something I do.  My comment is not that I can't balance an encounter it is that as a Fatemaster, I have to do pretty much everything you have listed.  In other systems I really only have to know the group level and then just pick a monster of that level and I don't need all types of calculations and figuring stuff out for my party.  In those other systems if they are optimized I can just pick a monster 1 or 2 levels up but the work is done and it allows me to focus on story instead of encounter prep.  And let's face it, if you ever have DM'd or Fatemasters there as some times where life gets in the way of prep.  So if it is hard, then you just throw  something in and hope the players don't die.  That there are all these steps to balancing an encounter, is precisely my point.  I want to focus on story not on balance, the system should be easier to run.  If I'm doing a lot of prep steps and then having to adjust a lot on the fly something is wrong.

I also should say we just ran the big in Northern Aggression but this time I had cuddle'd the character's starting equipment to legacy items, they still took down the big guy in 2 rounds without breaking a sweat.  The scenario was more balanced and dramatic with changes I mentioned in my first post compared to other people on the forum saying the first 2 players took down the big guy before the other two could even act (and thus were completely left out of dramatic time).   I still think the encounter went too quickly for what it should have been.

 

9 hours ago, zeeblee said:

In truth, if you want to hand out items that make your players better at killing, well the combat is going to get really funky.  There are many threads already sitting around discussing how the combat balance is currently in an odd goldilocks zone.  Enforcers are on par with starting players, but powerups and such will allow them to beat them relatively easily.  So you're stuck with either throwing enemies that require your players to flip/cheat only face cards (making combat a slog of failure) or sending large numbers of enemies at them to cause damage by attrition.  At this point your best bet is then to get REALLY into environmental setup in order to produce for your players and other hazards.  It is a lot of work, but I've found every game system that doesn't come with a Monster Manual filled with challenge ratings runs into the same Fatemaster/Gamemaster/Storyteller workload.  The alternative of course is to go combat-light, but it doesn't sound like that's the solution you're looking for.

This is exactly what I am trying to avoid.  And when I say progression is broken - this is exactly what I'm getting at.  The equipment and progression both work to create these exact issues that you mention.  I can't give players something better than starting gears because it makes everything even more difficult to manage on the encounter side.  Even if I do all the steps Ampers&nd says at the table, the encounters are not really working well.

 

As for this:

8 hours ago, zeeblee said:

As has been said, I think the core of the problem is that your players are used to/want to play Dungeons and Dragons (or Pathfinder or any other game with a well-defined set of challenge ratings and Diablo-style loot progression).

This is not the core problem.  People keep assuming that I or the players have some drive to make this D&D but this is not at all the case.  Several of the players don't like D&D and Pathfinder, and in fact, the ones most calling for wealth or some better progression for this are ones that dislike these systems the most. 

They want a progression in wealth because it comes from roleplaying the world of Malifaux.  The Guild is about money and power, the MSU is maybe more about power - but since soulstones cost a lot of money they are about money too.  If you are a stitched/gremlin/neverborne money likely isn't motivational, but for the humans breachside it absolutely is.  Why do the miners go to the mines? This isn't Call of Chulthu where the players are there to learn secrets, some may be - but a Mercenary is all about the script, and getting better gear like the Freicorps.  Many many humans are there to either build power or wealth.  What I am saying is the system has made it difficult for me to let them do this.  Not all the players come to table wanting the same things, some want to just explore  but some want to become as wealthy powerful as a master and start their own faction as a roleplaying goal.  It would be great if I could accommodate this so they could roleplay becoming a master.

 I'm also puzzled why people commenting on this tread want to make this game so you just keep your starting weapon and that's it.  They imply that rewards for players are somehow bad or not supported by the system.  Yet in the stock adventures the players get paid and get loot drops.  Progressive rewards is the only way to make the second reward actually rewarding.  If you give a great gun and then a mediocre one, the mediocre one is not much fun to get.  But this works nice if the Mediocre gun drops first.  The game obviously supports some of this, why else release a list of artifact weapons if they aren't meant to be found.  For some players it is easy to to do progressive loot drops.  Any player that can use a soulstone can always use a better one.  Any player that can use a grimoire can use another.  But a mercenary gets that first gun and then is stuck.  So in the real game at the 6th or so session the mercenary player at the table asks why do only the mages get cool rewards, where is mine?

 

[Ampers&nd]

1 hour ago, Budoman said:

I want to thank Ampers&and for his comments.  Mostly what you say there as far as scaling encounters is something I do.  My comment is not that I can't balance an encounter it is that as a Fatemaster, I have to do pretty much everything you have listed.  In other systems I really only have to know the group level and then just pick a monster of that level and I don't need all types of calculations and figuring stuff out for my party.  In those other systems if they are optimized I can just pick a monster 1 or 2 levels up but the work is done and it allows me to focus on story instead of encounter prep.  And let's face it, if you ever have DM'd or Fatemasters there as some times where life gets in the way of prep.  So if it is hard, then you just throw  something in and hope the players don't die.  That there are all these steps to balancing an encounter, is precisely my point.  I want to focus on story not on balance, the system should be easier to run.  If I'm doing a lot of prep steps and then having to adjust a lot on the fly something is wrong.

Yep, I do agree with you that is one of this systems downsides (I wouldn't say broken, but definitely one of the negative points) in Through the Breach there is effectively one level- the starting one. Without character levels whilst there is progression in lots of ways there is no simple way of scaling this. Monster manuals are great for this in most systems, but in TtB you effectively have only a few levels (peon, minion, enforcer, henchman, master) and the leaps between them are huge at times (three minions will die easily, three enforcers will probably kill a fated, 3 henchmen will end the game).  

TtB takes much more prep than pretty much any other large scale RPG i've played- others can take as much if the GM/FM wants to put in the time, but TtB is a bit needy in that regard in that often you have no option but to get heavily involved, it's one of the reasons my sessions only run once a month (supposedly) the prep is too much for real life and weekly sessions. 

perhaps as well as the suggested destiny steps database on here we could create a list of scaled bad guys to see what FM have experienced for themselves? (for instance Stitched together are a great minion threat, my players loathe them, so they are used sparingly) 

something i should have asked before- do you have into the steam? if your mercenary has a good rifle from the almanacs already, the extra weaponry and upgrades in there are all a great step up. the triggers as well are a slightly side-on boost to equipment (ie- the weapon doesn't change but a trigger can change it's profile and make it very different) 

[Omenbringer]

While a lot of the advice in here is good I do agree that TtB has some issues with character progression. From reading your posts it would appear that your players are feeling as if they are not really the major players in Malifaux that they want to be despite having played through a number of sessions. In other words no matter how long they play they don't really feel like "Masters" of Malifaux.

One thing you might try (aside from many of the other suggestions above) is to introduce a randomizer into the static resolution system of the non-fated. This can make the characters less potent at the low end and more potent in the upper end of the non-fated ranks. There have been a number of good suggestions on how to do this without obtrusively altering the core system.

As for economy, the best thing I can offer for that is to give your players opportunities for greater power and the commensurate responsibilities that go with it. Let them try and run one of the settlement cities and manage the local economy through tarrifs and such.

One big thing is to not become adversarial to your players, if they want more give them more. Let those additional gifts, though, come with long strings or uncomfortable allegiances or new adversaries.

The last thing I will offer is to remember that TtB Fated characters are designed for obsolescence. The game was never really intended to go on for ever. While this doesn't mean the characters die, it does mean they should be graduating into unplayable NPC's at some point (though I contend this occurs a bit earlier than it really should).

Also it might be worth taking a look at an interview conducted with the original TtB designer to gain some insights into why he chose to do certain things with the system (not all of which were well received by the Kickstarter backer play testers). Interview link here.

TtB is a very different RPG than most I have encountered, it is not for everyone; however don't be afraid to alter things to suit your group. "House Ruling" is usually a requirement of all RPG's. I have yet to play one that didn't benefit from some tinkering.

[bertmac]

Into the steam is very good for upgrades for instance I took the Gatling pistol added the upgrades to give it 2" extra range +to attack flips and +to intimidation flips added to this is the multi barrel ability to use additional barrels to add damage and blasts as long as you are happy to use all 9 barrels at once this ends up giving a 6/7b/7b damage track for one attack.

Combat weapons are tougher to deal with as Ampersand has realised my Martial arts combined with Knuckledusters is as good as a big choppy sword pretty much. 

My character is pretty good at everything except paying attention to what is happening whereas everyone else has individual areas of expertise.

[Ampers&nd]

you're also as strong as a particularly weedy kitten..

[bertmac]

It's not how hard you hit it's where you hit them hard! ;-)