Dealing with Leveticus

[EpicWaffle]

Keeping in mind that I know that the recent errata kinda put Levi in order, I still think he's one of the strongest master at the moment, thought reinforced by the fact that in my local tournament meta there's one Levi player who just spams him at all tournament and I haven't yet saw him loose.

To his defense, he's a really good player, knows how to play well his crew, which is a good competitive choice, and while I've never played against him (tho I arrived 2 times just behind him on the "podium"), I've saw him facing some really good player and still managing to win.

He runs a fixed list on every occasion, with 2 trappers, 2 waifs, Alice, Levi, A&D, and generally the effigy.

Now , while I have some ideas on how to deal with him in case I would face him, i kinda struggle to picture in my mind a good strategy or at least a decent counter play that would prevent Levi to stomp me, doubts mainly originated by my poor expirience against Leveticus players ( I just played 1 vs an average player when I began to play).

Generally the best advice I saw was "go for the waifs " , which can be done and I have some ways to do it with few models while the rest do their job, but the threat of him and A&D kinda put some pressure on my nerves  and damn I hate trappers!

My go to masters vs him would be Somer and Zipp (ok their are my go to master, period ), while keeping Ophelia and Wong as eventual replacements

So here's the question:

How do you deal with leveticus on a general level? Tips and common errors to avoid in a match up against him? Even some "minor" battle reports are welcome  

 

Thanks in advance to all who will answer  Excelsior!

[Joel]

Actually, go for the anchors works better IMO.  Zipp, with his ability to separate waif from anchor by either moving them or blocking LoS with his smoke, works great against him. 

[daniello_s]

Dealing with Levi is quite easy - keep your models in cover. Even soft cover is quite challenging for Levi after he was hit by errata and can ruin his day easily.  

Also Pigapult might be good idea to hunt down Waifs. Rooster Riders should hurt them too. Trixie should help you to win initiative flip and re-position your most vulnerable model at the start of the turn. 

Levi is not that scary as he was

 

[EpicWaffle]

Thanks to both  yeah zipp and roosters seemed the best idea to me too! Another good one is a skeeter packing up with explosives a bayou and have him run straight for the waif, tho assuming that he doesn't know the combo.

The main thing thta bother me is my lack of expirience against him! I was thinking to go full summoning with Somer  too while using the pigapult as threat for his waifs bu I guesst he can easily summon form my bayou, and thta would put me on the downside I guess

The "ideas" for a crew dealing with him were Zipp (he just seems like the best counter for him) and a midrange Somer (a midway between summoning and elite)  

[EpicWaffle]

Also he seems pretty mobile, so just out of curiosity generally at what turn does he start to be a threat? Assuming, let's say, a standard deployment and him being impatient to fire?

that 10" trick seems fairly useful if in combo with ashes and dust so I would guess even turn one if i overextend?

[Clement]

1 hour ago, EpicWaffle said:

Thanks to both  yeah zipp and roosters seemed the best idea to me too! Another good one is a skeeter packing up with explosives a bayou and have him run straight for the waif, tho assuming that he doesn't know the combo.

Explain please.

[Goopy]

My thoughts are Zipp, Earl, Two or Three Roosters to just get up in the waifs' faces as well as the trappers, Rami to out range and counter snipe, some stuffed piglets for activation control. Fill out however you feel. I would ignore A&D. Just let that huge walking point sink do its own thing and do your stats and schemes. Take maybe like Francis or Burt or someone to try and take out Rusty so that way your roosters can charge in. 

 

Just kill his smaller and support models and then out activate and out VP him . 

[EnternalVoid]

7 hours ago, Clement said:

Explain please.

Poorly handled explosives is a sky pirate upgrade that can give a condition that can be rough for waifs.  Basically when the condition ends, everyone with in a 2" pulse takes 2 damage plus the guy the condition is on.  If the model dies though instead everyone within 2" takes 4 damage.  So I am guessing EpicWaffle is aiming for it if your opponent kills it, it kills the Waif, if you kill it after it ran there, it kills the waif.  Even if it does not die it will still do 2 damage putting it at half dead meaning he will have to return off that one or risk one dying before he can use it.  Basically you don't actually have to attack the waif to kill it, just be nearby.

 

Personally, first thought is play for VP.  Problem is a good And experienced player might be better than you and seeing the key points/models.  This Levi list is built around being able to bring the fight to the opponent from first turn and keep the pressure mounting.  The early game the trappers are important to him as their jobs are to try and remove a key target or thin the herd.  Levi will likely try to keep his activation back till he gets something in his range to try and maximize his offense first turn.  This means his early activations will likely be the Trappers as he will try to get shots off before they are threatened.  Next will likely be Ashes and Dust moving into position to threaten you or give a platform for Levi to jump to.  Either way it will be close enough to a flank he can reform same turn and by close enough within 11".  So not as close as you think as the Dust Storm is wthin 6" of the edge, the Core was placed BTB to the A&D, as both ignore conditions they are not slow, and the Dust can walk once and get into BTB then use its other AP to reform.  Effigy likely goes next putting its condition on Levi.  Levi will then jump to Ashes and Dust after something moves with in the range he wants to threaten *He has a 12" range and (0) to jump to A&D is 10" giving him a big field*.  After Levi you will likely have the Dust Storm move up to the core and prep for reforming and the core going next after that.  That leaves the Waifs and Rusty to move accordingly to stay safe and react to the 7-8 activations you have already done yourself.  Honestly that is pretty good as his damage is largely unleashed early in the turn and with considerable threat range.  Also all tallied up, even with the Effigy it is 39ss with out upgrades.  So he is likely packing full load upgrades or has another model on top of these.

So the best way to deal with this is to find ways to mess it up.  Depending on faction there are options but we will stick with any gremlins ones.  I have seen people lure a Duststorm when it is summoned so it cannot reach the core turn 1.  Trixie Gremlin Lure can push the Dust to produce a similar effect.  To protect against this your opponent has to put the Ashes and Dust farther to the flank to have more space.  Even then someone like Zipp could well move the Core away to prevent reforming.  I have had a Collodi activate early and kill a Trapper turn 1 to deny him the range.  When he tried to retaliate at Collodi I merely lured my own model or used his trigger from my own attacks to back him out of range.  Several Gremlins could do similar things first turn, even if it might mean merely disabling the trapper for a turn rather than killing it.  Anything that forces him to spend AP differently makes him less likely to put you on the reactive and more in control of the flow of the game.

So here is one of my second thoughts; Give as good as you Get.  If you can first turn return the favor you will find his list does not actually have real durability.  If he leaps to Ashes and Dust first turn consider targetting Levi and trying to put him in the ground.  This will force him to come back out of one of his two initial waifs.  This means he will have to keep his remaining Waif safe or use his (0) to get a new one every turn rather than jumping around to his undead or saccing constructs for Cards.  Odds are he is 2wds down from Channeling for Focus once so he will only have 6wds, Df5, and ss for prevention.  If he survives but used a couple stones then it might be worth it as he will be nearly dead next turn for potentially a quick kill plus those stones will not be used to buy suits for triggers.  You can also have options that can put the Core in danger first turn making it so if he does break up his A&D, you might be able to kill it before it can reform.  Not the easiest task as it will generally have Armor +2 or +3 and Hard to Wound +2 with 6wds but depending what resources you have it might be possible.  There is also the potential that if you have those sort of options you might even be able to reach the Waif's turn 1 and put pressure on them.  Losing a Waif first turn is rough, more so if you can also put some wounds on Levi or he buried.

There are a lot of potential combos here and methods but selecting the right ones will have to also relate to your goals for VP.  If you give to him as well as he gives to you, both your crews might end up crippled and find it hard to score.  It really depends on where and how you can score will also using what options are available.  Which all comes down to how well you can play the game.

[EpicWaffle]

20 hours ago, Clement said:

Explain please.

Exactly as @EnternalVoid explained, i should had specified iron skeeters   

The only thing he skipped, is that a bayou gremlin can use drunk and reckless in order to self-inficlt 2 damages, so all of a sudden you have a time bomb with a 15'' threat range that will deal 4 damages at the end of the turn, since the condition that you  put on the gremlin (which requires a seven of any suits) says that 1' you inflict 2 dmgs on the model, than if it is still alive it's 2 damages in a pulse of 2", otherwise the damage get to 4 with the same radius. It can get really useful if you combine it with lenny or the 0 action of the same I.S. in order to give the bayou fast, since suddenly you can almost reach the entire map and "chirugically" remove some low wound pieces that might really mess up your opponet plans, all at turn 1 (dogs, totems, bayou in a mirror match, all ka-put!) or for the entire game if you are using Somer.

As amazing as it seems, this strategy has its down sides, main one being the fact that it gets less and less easy to pull off if the enemy knows what's gonna happen (if he has trappers or any sniper too, since he can jut 1 shot the skeeter and ruin your plans), but at the same time, Iron Skeeters are relly good support pieces, helping you pushing your crew key models up front and reducing los in choke points, whithout forgetting the other action on the ugrade which can secure you some cheeky points (and hopefully, it's what your opponent is gonna think if he's not familiar with this idea), so you won't be wasting points if the schemes pool allows it. Just don't put all your faith in this combo  

Applied to leveticus, if you have activation advantage and your skeeter+bayou manage to stay alive, will guarantee you a dead waif at turn 1  (if you get lucky even 2, who knows xD ) for the cost of 3 stones, and possiby some significant damages on another model (4 damages turn 1 aren't a joke).

[EpicWaffle]

13 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Poorly handled explosives is a sky pirate upgrade that can give a condition that can be rough for waifs.  Basically when the condition ends, everyone with in a 2" pulse takes 2 damage plus the guy the condition is on.  If the model dies though instead everyone within 2" takes 4 damage.  So I am guessing EpicWaffle is aiming for it if your opponent kills it, it kills the Waif, if you kill it after it ran there, it kills the waif.  Even if it does not die it will still do 2 damage putting it at half dead meaning he will have to return off that one or risk one dying before he can use it.  Basically you don't actually have to attack the waif to kill it, just be nearby.

 

Personally, first thought is play for VP.  Problem is a good And experienced player might be better than you and seeing the key points/models.  This Levi list is built around being able to bring the fight to the opponent from first turn and keep the pressure mounting.  The early game the trappers are important to him as their jobs are to try and remove a key target or thin the herd.  Levi will likely try to keep his activation back till he gets something in his range to try and maximize his offense first turn.  This means his early activations will likely be the Trappers as he will try to get shots off before they are threatened.  Next will likely be Ashes and Dust moving into position to threaten you or give a platform for Levi to jump to.  Either way it will be close enough to a flank he can reform same turn and by close enough within 11".  So not as close as you think as the Dust Storm is wthin 6" of the edge, the Core was placed BTB to the A&D, as both ignore conditions they are not slow, and the Dust can walk once and get into BTB then use its other AP to reform.  Effigy likely goes next putting its condition on Levi.  Levi will then jump to Ashes and Dust after something moves with in the range he wants to threaten *He has a 12" range and (0) to jump to A&D is 10" giving him a big field*.  After Levi you will likely have the Dust Storm move up to the core and prep for reforming and the core going next after that.  That leaves the Waifs and Rusty to move accordingly to stay safe and react to the 7-8 activations you have already done yourself.  Honestly that is pretty good as his damage is largely unleashed early in the turn and with considerable threat range.  Also all tallied up, even with the Effigy it is 39ss with out upgrades.  So he is likely packing full load upgrades or has another model on top of these.

So the best way to deal with this is to find ways to mess it up.  Depending on faction there are options but we will stick with any gremlins ones.  I have seen people lure a Duststorm when it is summoned so it cannot reach the core turn 1.  Trixie Gremlin Lure can push the Dust to produce a similar effect.  To protect against this your opponent has to put the Ashes and Dust farther to the flank to have more space.  Even then someone like Zipp could well move the Core away to prevent reforming.  I have had a Collodi activate early and kill a Trapper turn 1 to deny him the range.  When he tried to retaliate at Collodi I merely lured my own model or used his trigger from my own attacks to back him out of range.  Several Gremlins could do similar things first turn, even if it might mean merely disabling the trapper for a turn rather than killing it.  Anything that forces him to spend AP differently makes him less likely to put you on the reactive and more in control of the flow of the game.

So here is one of my second thoughts; Give as good as you Get.  If you can first turn return the favor you will find his list does not actually have real durability.  If he leaps to Ashes and Dust first turn consider targetting Levi and trying to put him in the ground.  This will force him to come back out of one of his two initial waifs.  This means he will have to keep his remaining Waif safe or use his (0) to get a new one every turn rather than jumping around to his undead or saccing constructs for Cards.  Odds are he is 2wds down from Channeling for Focus once so he will only have 6wds, Df5, and ss for prevention.  If he survives but used a couple stones then it might be worth it as he will be nearly dead next turn for potentially a quick kill plus those stones will not be used to buy suits for triggers.  You can also have options that can put the Core in danger first turn making it so if he does break up his A&D, you might be able to kill it before it can reform.  Not the easiest task as it will generally have Armor +2 or +3 and Hard to Wound +2 with 6wds but depending what resources you have it might be possible.  There is also the potential that if you have those sort of options you might even be able to reach the Waif's turn 1 and put pressure on them.  Losing a Waif first turn is rough, more so if you can also put some wounds on Levi or he buried.

There are a lot of potential combos here and methods but selecting the right ones will have to also relate to your goals for VP.  If you give to him as well as he gives to you, both your crews might end up crippled and find it hard to score.  It really depends on where and how you can score will also using what options are available.  Which all comes down to how well you can play the game.

Thanks a lot, your post was realy soemthing  

Your breakdown of the strategy he generaly adopt is really accurate, and one thing i forgot to tell is that he always, ALWAYS, pick convict labor! since he start of with a good controll of the map from his trappers, he set up the schemes late turn 1, earlie turn 2 and just hold his ground.

 I guess Trixie or the First mate are a solid choice and my idea was pretty much the one you explained, although i kinda like the idea of taking the FM rather than trixie just because of his leap, scheme denial, his push gives you more freedom of action (since it's in every direction) and cause he's generally moore tanky, so i don't have to worry to much about him getting focussed. sure is, the trixie alpha strike could come in handy in certain situations.

[spooky_squirrel]

As was recently said on the Arcanist channel: masters (and models) that are designed to do damage will do damage. Expect to lose an average of 2 models a turn, and plan for it.

If you adopt this approach, then Somer summoning will help put models on the board to allow you to keep up with activations. Ulix pig summoning will as well. Alternatively, you can play with fire and explosives and poisonous magical gases and put things that want to die as far up the field as possible, engaging things that would normally be shooting or serving as anchors.

The tactic described above with Poorly Handled Explosives is really disruptive (I love Fire/Poison/Ice Gamin because they hurt things when they die). Similarly, with how fast Roosters are, if the trapper can reach you without focusing, your rooster can reach him without support if he's not hiding on a rooftop. If he is hiding on a rooftop, Gremlin "Lure" him with Trixie and put him on the ground. These kinds of things are really disruptive.

 

Otherwise, as @EnternalVoid also said: play your VP conditions to the best of your ability. While Levi (or any killy master really) is erasing obvious threats, a relatively cheap (and reckless in the case of Gremlins) minion can be running a scheme somewhere out of sight and out of mind. If you have an activation advantage through Pigs and/or Bayou Gremlins, you can try to get the more quick-to-score ones (like Set Up or Detonate the Charges) late in a turn early in the game. If you can keep his stuff engaged, you can try for incremental schemes as well (like Leave Your Mark or Convict Labor).

[daniello_s]

If you really want to hurt Levi try this crew:

Somer - Family Tree (6SS pool)

Francois - Dirty Cheater, Stilts

Burt - Dirty Cheater

Iron Skeeter

Slop Hauler

2x Bayou Gremlin

Pigapult

2x Stuffed Piglet

 

You should easily out-activate Levi's crew. Somer should focus on summoning two Gremlins on turn 1 and if possible kill one to get Pig and extra two cards. Then Pigapult should try t kill one Waif and Burt using Skeeter as a taxi should go for another one (if possible). If you do that Levi should be in big trouble as he would stay on the last Waif and really wouldn't like to be within 24'' of Pigapult with her.

[Math Mathonwy]

Cool list! I would be tempted to swap at least one Stuffed for a Skeeter, though.

[daniello_s]

10 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Cool list! I would be tempted to swap at least one Stuffed for a Skeeter, though.

Glad you like my type of filth

BTW why would you take Skeeter?

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

BTW why would you take Skeeter?

Can't answer for Math, but a Skeeter stops a black joker screwing you out of Do It Like Dis, and later you can use it as an engagement machine. Plus you can hand out Tomes with it for fast on the iron skeeter and non-selfharmy triggers for the bayou gremlins while still summoning with Som'er and masks.

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

A skeeter helps handing out suits outside Somer's activation and extend the "suit bubble" to a 34" more or less (skeeter's + somer's).

Late game it can tarpit for a while with def 7 with defensive stance and Ml6 with positive.

Imho