Family

[bertmac]

Apart from frank which family members do people take in non perdita crews regularly?

[Hidelfon]

Papa Loco with Sonnia 

Abuela + brutal emissary 

[Myyrä]

Abuela + Nino can be nice as well if you want to prevent interacts in a certain area or near your models.

[4thstringer]

Papa with the emissary in Hoffman crews,  nino in interact schemes.   Frank in nellie crews.  Haven't tried abuela with nellie but since she likes fast I'd imagine it could wOrk. 

[admiralvorkraft]

Abuela any time I have 7 stones to spare. Papa with Jack Daw in Recon/Interference. Otherwise I don't run the Family at all.

[JDAntoine]

I wouldn't be suprised if the order of common to rare Family members is:

1. Francisco
2. Papa Loco (+ Death Marshal)
3. Abuela
4. Nino

Personally love the Santiago sculpt but that really isn't here nor there. He does do something awesome but there currently isn't an easy set up to get the most out of him with a huge certainty (as far as I know). In my honest opinion Pistoleros could use a new Upgrade as wave 4 seems to have included some for very rarely seen models. Honestly I expected one to be there for them, largely because the other themes have expanded in model quantity. Perhaps next wave.

[Gnomezilla]

I'm still trying out a single Pistolero to protect the Hoffball, which (after subtracting the times the flips failed so hard they felt the blasts on the next table over) works decently for the cost. Do have to remember that he goes in front of the taller constructs when he wishes to shoot, though.

[Surrealistik]

Loco with his Death Martial orderly/bodyguard/babby-sitter (indispensable in Sonnia lists), Abuela and Nino in that order.

Santiago just isn't worth his points outside of the family, and even then there are usually better alternatives.

[JDAntoine]

5 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Santiago just isn't worth his points outside of the family, and even then there are usually better alternatives.

A bit of a shame but I tend to agree. Abuela just gives more flexability and ends up doing more consistant damage.

I do feel Santiago is almost there, there is always hope for more Family upgrades in the future I guess.

[Myyrä]

5 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

there is always hope for more Family upgrades in the future I guess.

There really isn't. With the rest of the family models being as good as they are the best you can hope for is Santiago upgrade.

[JDAntoine]

5 hours ago, Myyrä said:

There really isn't. With the rest of the family models being as good as they are the best you can hope for is Santiago upgrade.

Perhaps, I do think that there are options for more Family upgrades. Especially if you consider the powerful changes Wave 4 brought. However this obviously speculation.

I think one of the fine current differences or limits to the upgrades allready revolves around (0) Tactical Actions and I believe some upgrades could be added who continue that trend. Imagne a non-Leader, Family, Rare 1 Upgrade that hands out something like (0) Stalk and/or Bulletproof +1 for 1 SS. It would see home on Nino aswell but I think it specifically would work out well on Santiago because he can become a monster on the move. It would also make him slightly more akin to his 1st edition version I believe.

But then again this is a whole different discussion. I am just hoping for some additional options for the Family in the future. They are wonderful models and as said adding more (0) Actions to the crew really makes it specific which model will recieve which upgrade without having their actual name on it ;).

[Hidelfon]

Santiago needs badly a positive to the attack flip build in

[JDAntoine]

14 minutes ago, Hidelfon said:

Santiago needs badly a positive to the attack flip build in

I think Sh 6 is allright, some would say more than allright. What I would love is something like Stalk or something that could give him a bit more resilience/movement and/or would fit his angry character. With Stalk he could become one of the front-runners of the Ortega's (which lorewise seems to be the case) and it indirectly would also increase the crews Scheme weakness because Santiago's movements would be one of the highest in the Ortega family. So yeah... I'd love Stalk and I'd specifically love it on Santigo (more as on Nino or the Pistoleros). Perhaps an upgrade that would grand (0) Stalk and can be discarded to add a Suit would be perfect for him and/or Nino. I personally think it could be cool...

As mentioned one of the great balancing factors within Family design seems to be the (0) Actions.
- Perdita has 3 available when you factor in Trick Shooting
- Francisco has 2 available when you factor in Wade In
- Abuela has 2 available
- Papa Loco is best kept cheap and hidden (if at all) because of his explosive nature
- Nino does it's thing very well with just Focus
- Santiago has the Francisco/Abuela frame to become a 'front runner' but lacks the reason to currently do so.

Now Francisco certainly is good with Hair Trigger or Hermanos De Armas but Hair Trigger is just more efficient on Abuela because most of the time she's faster. 

[Hidelfon]

Sorry I didn't explain myself.

The positive to attack flips I suggested is for him to shoot in to cover not because Sh6 not being enough. 

    In a proper table (right amount of scenery) against a good opponent he will do an average of 2 damage per activation.  Damage is all he can do. 

  With a positive he can ignore soft cover and at least do minimum damage in hard cover.  As it is now his "shoot again"  trigger is useless against a good opponent (enemy in cover) .  So his usual activation is: focus,  shoot (hope for a ram because mask is useless against cover),  do 2 (3 with ram)  damage. 

   Same thing with rapid fire on him,  rapid fire into cover results in missing all shots. 

  The built in positive flip to the attack is the main reason why a convict is better than him.

 

A 0ss upgrade with a positive to attack and the stalk you suggested would be great though ?

  (I still hate he needs the same suits than Perdita  ?) 

[JDAntoine]

Ah I do really like your idea aswell! Especially if it's exclusive to Santiago however because with Nino that kind of power might be a little bit too much, especially if you factor in a Focused Nino and all that. The suggested upgrade (adding a Suit for discarding) also could form a serious problem in combination with Nino, as turn 1 model removal (or at least forcing discarding cards) might be a bit too much. On the other hand, you can only do that once offcourse.

In general though I feel the biggest factor to currently choose Abuela over Santiago comes from movement. While Abuela only has Rg 6 it's much more akin to 11. Obviously it does mean that Abuela can die on the incomming hit but if the model is removed (which isn't unlikely with Hair Trigger) Abuela just comes with too much upsides compaired to Santiago.
I feel that if Santiago could match that speed buff Abuela can get he's much closer to her in terms of competative approach. At that point Rg 11 (from Abuela) is more likely to compete with Rg 17 (from Santiago with Stalk Wk and Modified Peacebringer Rg 12) which brings a more interesting competition between the two. 

In general I think a Stalk upgrade and discard for a Suit upgrade could be very Ortega like, as they are Neverborn hunters (to some extend) and to me the most optimal synergy would still be on Santiago or Nino, especially if your discarding the upgrade on a great time. In terms of costs I do think that 1 SS would be sufficient, 0 would be strictly too cheap and 2 would still make the module too expensive on either Santiago or Nino. Who allready have some serious competition within the Guild arsenal. 

But in general the Family options are allready great so there is no pressing need to change it. As Myyra said, it might not happen at all. 

[Myyrä]

There are actually ways for Santiago to get around cover, including moving him with Enslaved Nephilim or Abuela and using Companion to chain activate at a better position or removing cover with a Watcher and Companioning Santiago. The problem is that Santiago's damage isn't really good enough to merit such tactics.

[Hagisman]

Nino is one of the better snipers for Guild to take. Better than a trapper or Hans with the merc tax in my opinion.

Santiago is the only family member who I've never taken out of Perdita crews. Abuela as well, but I've got no table time with her.

[Ozymandias79]

I've only had a couple games with Nellie, but I've gotten good use out of Pistolero's so far with her.  They like going last, and Nellie likes delaying activations so they go well together.  The ruthless and positive twists make them downright scary for a mere 5 stone model too.

Otherwise, I occasionally will use Nino outside of a Perdita crew, but that's about it.  I've run the Frank/Santiago duo before, which can be fun.

[JDAntoine]

Pistoleros with Nellie could certainly be a nice idea, havn't thought of that Ozymandias79. I do think that Nellie will open up more options in general for Guild players. The question/downside is offcourse if what Nellie does is enough to change the current succesful way of Guild choices. Because honestly I do believe Nellie's scheme game to be superb but Guild is full of damage dealers and other than given some Executioners fast I am uncertain if Nellie syngs well enough with the current choices we have.

I do agree with Hagisman that Nino is one of the better snipers. At the same time I have been loving the interactions that the Austringers have combined with Abuela's "Listen Up Young'un". Francisco for me is the prime choice to add to many because of cost. I am undecided if Nellie wants Frank, but if she doesn't we certainly could see something new growing there.

In general I'm rather happy with the Family models as is, love Perdita and Francisco, use Papa and Abuela and sometimes Nino sees play. It only leaves us with the underused Santiago and Latiago Pistoleros but if Wave 5 even adds a single upgrade option to them I'd be extremely happy. 

[Morgs]

If you take the papbox, take the emissary and throw dynamite at everyone! Put diestro on frank, put debt on santiago, stab santiago for 5 damage, draw 6 good masks and kill whatever frank is engaged with! Granny with hair trigger or debt is great with every one! Pistoleros give on Df in 3 if they haven't activated, but I think we have much better minions. Frank with diestro and the emissary's built in shoot again trigger is FUN.