The First Mate, Trixie killer?

[Four_N_Six]

Trixie does some great things for us. That lure is extremely valuable, and ill omens is great at the moment you need it. However, after checking our new reptilian friend out and comparing them, I've started wondering if he's not just better than the old fan favorite.

He costs an extra stone, no big deal. They have very similar stats, with him having a slightly higher willpower. She can reckless, but with the first mate having such a reliable leap, it works out in his favor most of the time (for me anyway). She can cheat initiative, which is great when you need it, but it doesn't always come up. I feel like his camouflage is better than her handing off attacks, especially if she's scheme running and away from allies. 

To me this boils down to their push actions. Her(0) for poison is not great without brewmaster, and her other isn't as good in gaining grounds as it is in the core schemes. 

Her push has a longer range, and that's about it. In a lot of situations, his straight 6" push will be better than her Cg push, and hers will rarely be better.  His is in any direction with two triggers built in, and he doesn't have a TN. Last part is situational, but the mate is up to six inches, and Trixie is the full charge. 

So what am I missing to put Trixie over the top? 

[Dogmantra]

The slap trigger gives her some pretty big damage output if someone with a good Ml follows her around. I know people quite like to use Lenny for that, to get up to 5 attacks with him per turn. Plus she's a Gremlin so gets access to a load of support abilities. And idk about The First Mate's upgrades, but Bounty and A Gun For A Lady are okay too.

[Full_Atomic]

He can potentially have some decent range with (possibly) free upgrades depending on what Zipp gets as his upgrades. 

Sky Pirates are cool like that.

True. Trixie can help pump out some serious damage when paired with a strong Ml partner.... but where's the versatility in that? I love first mate, hilarious model, nifty rules. Trixie has her perks but I'm leaning towards F.M now. 

[Hoyled]

having the option to cheat initiative  is still pretty great. And gremlin lure is also a pull for your own gremlins.

Honestly I think there both great models, and depending on schemes can compliment each other in being an obscene amount of board control.

[thecapopriest]

I don't know the First Mates triggers, but I always try to get use out of the slow trigger from Trixie, by either using a crow high card in my hand or soul stoning for the suit. At that point not only are you taking an AP away but you are also pushing them hopefully out of position. Also Trixie can be thrown by Lenny, which gives her great positioning to Gremlin Lure your own guys.

[Four_N_Six]

You can use his push on your own models. He has the same slow trigger, also on a crow. He has 2 built in triggers. One makes it so he still has perfect camouflage even after activating, the other discards a scheme marker within 3" of himself, which would then trigger his ability to draw a card and discard a card

[thecapopriest]

4 minutes ago, Four_N_Six said:

You can use his push on your own models. He has the same slow trigger, also on a crow. He has 2 built in triggers. One makes it so he still has perfect camouflage even after activating, the other discards a scheme marker within 3" of himself, which would then trigger his ability to draw a card and discard a card

Nice, he might end up being better for me as well. At that point it seems like maybe it would be a really powerful control crew to have both of them in the same list. I have played around with Somer having trixie and 3 lightning bugs and giving out crows with do it like dis so they all give out slow reliably. Add in the First Mate, he wouldn't get the suit from do it like dis, but just use soul stones or high crows and there is another source of slow in the crew. 

[Blacks85]

I don't understand...How can you think the new Henchman is a viable model?

I've read it only twice, but it seems totally useless to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't get it.

Trixiebelle, on other hand, it's absurdly crazy strong and versatile.

I won't swap them even if the cost of Trixie would be twice as the other !

Lure + slow, 3 AP. CHEAT initiative, Push enemy away or pull friends to you, charge a model engaged with one of your beater and make it beat again, that's too many options trixie gives you....on other hand I can't see any possibility or option the new henchman can pull of. 

I don't like the "Gun for Lady", I've tried it 3-4 times and never shot a single time...so I won't take it again or recommend it.

[Patzer]

I don't really see how they compete. The First Mate is a Silurid with better stats, can use soulstones, and eat small models as well as scheme markers. To me, that screams schemer/flanker/scheme-runner destroyer. A stand a lone model who will be amazing in the right situations. Trixie's best trait is her three ap and Ill Omens, the push is quite handy to you on your on models too. As long as you want to play an aggressive over-extension game, Trixie will always have a place. The bottom line, TFM is a specialist and a stand alone model, while Trixie is a generalist and crew dependent model.

[Four_N_Six]

I should have specified for scheme running.  Obviously there are going to be games where I still have her in, or even games when I use both.  I'll still use her to make my melee hitters better, but running schemes or denying I think the First Mate is a better condender

[Izzinatah]

Yes you should have  Silurids do make for good scheme runners in general, and the Mate does bring a few other things to the table, but Merris LaCroix is my go-to Gremlin 'scheme runner', as far as actually running Scheme Markers goes. I don't think I'd replace her with the First Mate for that.

As for comparing to Trixie, they can both push models around. Menacing Croak is pretty great, and comparable to Gremlin 'Lure', although Trixie can do it from further away and can Reckless. But I think that's where the Trixie/Mate comparison ends - they fill different roles. What he is great at is removing enemy Scheme Markers, able to remove a troublesome VP-scoring Scheme Marker from up to 20" away, and cycle a card in your hand to boot, or wait until the end of the Turn and use his mobility to Leap in and remove a Scheme Marker from somewhere unexpected.

As always with Malifaux, it depends on the Schemes and Strategies - both the ones you flip and your personal ones

[Four_N_Six]

Well I definitely like croak better than gremlin lure.  He can do it in any direction, meaning he can get extra movement for my models, or pull them out of danger.  Or put the enemy into danger.  Him not having reckless is definitely a drawback, but I think it's pretty common for me to reckless Trixie so she can walk and do 2 things, so his (0) makes up for not having reckless probably at least 66% of the time.

[Izzinatah]

It's better for moving enemy models about, and I agree that his (0) makes up for Reckless in that sense. But don't forget Trixie can reposition your own models too, and not just with the Lure.

[Wyrmfist]

The First Mate's Menacing Croak specifies pushing 'enemy' models, so no shuffling about your own models there.

 

[Math Mathonwy]

19 hours ago, Wyrmfist said:

The First Mate's Menacing Croak specifies pushing 'enemy' models, so no shuffling about your own models there.

Aye, I think that this is the big deal. If FM could Push your own dudes, I agree that he would be a contender for usurping Trixie. But since he can't Push your own models, I think that they both have their niches.

[Four_N_Six]

As usual, that is one of my larger oversights, so thanks for making me honest before I cheated tonight against some Outcasts

[Adran]

I looked at the competition for The First Mate as being Fingers rather than Trixie. They were both scheming and scheme denial, but with different ways of doing it. 

[EpicWaffle]

Just wanted to share my opinion with the Fm  

Yesterday I had a game against a friend of mine playing Jacob lynch and the First Mate did amazingly. For the whole match he just kept repositioning his Mr Graves and an illuminated with a couple of slow here and there, while in the same time avoiding him to score any point (was a scheme/conditions centered encounter).

I don't think the mate may be counted as a replacement for Trixie, but the kinda fulfill a similar role in different ways for how I see them: trixie is much more of a support piece imo, she is great at saving your pieces or, if well positioned, send enemies back from where they came, while also having a good schemes manipulations (covert break through is so easy with her, same goes for set up).

I saw someone complaining about her 0 for schemes, saying  that it's not so good in gg2016, but I would remember the she will release the scheme the moment she end her activation, and by having reckless she can 0 a scheme already placed, walk, place another scheme, walk and convict labor is almost done

Turning now on the coolest silurid ever, I think that he's much more of an annoying/aggressive piece, rather than a support one (also able to scheme pretty efficiently): he has good stats, menacing croak is just amazing, the leap makes him look like he has reckless, and his presence forces your opponent to place schemes (or send scheme runner) as further as possible form him since he can just have a snack with them and get even tankier; I just tried him a couple of times but I think he's awesome, and he's worth the 9 ss.

Also I found a good combo with poorly handled explosives, by using a skeeter to give the slow+scheme drop to an enemy, then the FM follow up to remove the scheme, apply treasure map if equipped,gets armor and cycle a card  And if the stars are alligned in the right way, you can also think about trying to paralyze the slowed target and than proceed to eat it!

 

 

[EpicWaffle]

On 14 settembre 2016 at 1:22 PM, Adran said:

I looked at the competition for The First Mate as being Fingers rather than Trixie. They were both scheming and scheme denial, but with different ways of doing it. 

Agreed 100%! That's a good comparison!

[EpicWaffle]

Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll post here.

I've been focusing on playing zipp in the past weeks and while doing some theory crafting i had the idea of instead of putting poorly handled explosives (which is generally on a skeeter) on the mate instead of treasure map, which i generally give to him since it stacks with the passive.

The idea behind was born since in my Zipp's core crew I generally have zipp himself ( with gift of gab, rambling diatribe and a defensive upgrade since he's fairly squishy), 2 skeeters (with Hairship drop as a fixed one and generally poorly handled explosives), earl and the Fist mate, with his limited upgrade and treasure map, for the simple reason that I love the piece and want to be able to use it properly.

Now in an heavy schemes scenario this works great, and the first mate is a pain in the ass to deal with since he can hunt down and annoy enemy models really well, but when you are not forced to do so, he kinda loose potential since you loose the card cycling and the armor stacking possibility.

The other thing I found myself struggling is using both the skeeter without Hairship as a support/taxi (I generally auto include Francois since it works so well with the reposition from zipp) and finding space to use poorly handled explosives (2ap do limits you when you're used to reckless)

So with that said (and keep in mind that is all theory, haven't tried it yet), I wanted to try the Mate as a late game tank/harrasses by using zipp 0  and earl one as positioning tricks (without forgetting the leap)on earlie turns, poorly handled explosives on an enemy for the slow plus marker (friendly to the target) followed up up by menacing croak for the marker removal, unless you remove it with the leap.

Might seem pretty tricky, but in general the average will power/defense value is aroun 5 to 6, making it not so hard to hit the "combo" (especially on scheme runners/flankers) and from it you'll get +1 armor, a card cycle and depending on the direction of the push, even a free hit onthe target.  This get even better if you haven't used leap to move since you can than jump to safety, or reposition where you need the mate to be and, while the exploding ability from catch is stronger in summoning crews, get also handy if you are able to put it on an activated enemy, attack him with zipp enough to make it 1/2 wounds and use the reposition on up w go to deliver it among the enemies for a funny 4dmgs  pulse.

Another plus side is given by the possibility to have the extra bonus from treasure map, which is another card draw+the triggers, meanwhile your skeeter is now free to support/scheme around without having to use Ap for something else (fast Francois with companion 10 inches away form the deploy on turn 1 is super scary).

So that's my idea, again, I just did a couple of simulations (and while it's tricky, it's not as improbable as the Mancha roja 3 hit kill move or the swallow combo for the mate itself! Also, you're playing a flying rambling pirate's crew, so you should beg for challenges ) and still need to try it out on the field but I'd like to have some  feed back on this idea and ,if someone already thought about it and tested it, let me know!