Schemes & Stones Master Spotlight Shenlong

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Skitt_Happens said:

Or activate shenlong after all opponent models have activated but before tara has reactivated. It's a small windows but it is there.

Though it's still a ca 6 vs wp 7 to try and get off, so you'll get it once at best before they save their high card to stop Shenlong from stealing it.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Skitt_Happens said:

Or activate shenlong after all opponent models have activated but before tara has reactivated. It's a small windows but it is there.

Strictly speaking, the reactivate condition does not go away from a model until the end of turn. So you can get re-activate off off her as long as you out activate her. Makes for a slightly larger window. 

[Skitt_Happens]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

Strictly speaking, the reactivate condition does not go away from a model until the end of turn. So you can get re-activate off off her as long as you out activate her. Makes for a slightly larger window. 

Absolutely - but if you can stop her reactivating at the same time, it's all the sweeter!

[santaclaws01]

8 minutes ago, Skitt_Happens said:

Absolutely - but if you can stop her reactivating at the same time, it's all the sweeter!

Oh definitely, I've done it, much to the chagrin of my opponent.

[BigHammer]

7 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Though it's still a ca 6 vs wp 7 to try and get off, so you'll get it once at best before they save their high card to stop Shenlong from stealing it.

High River Style, baby

[qoob]

On ‎01‎.‎08‎.‎2016 at 2:25 PM, Adran said:

Strictly speaking, the reactivate condition does not go away from a model until the end of turn. So you can get re-activate off off her as long as you out activate her. Makes for a slightly larger window. 

Reactivate is not gone after the 2nd activation? Didn't know that. Thanks for that info!

[chris_havoc]

I haven't listened to this podcast yet but from what I've always played it as though Defensive (D) from Low River Style lasted until Shenlong's activation. This is definitely wrong I see now but if I am understanding correctly from context the point is that you can basically get an "infinite" build up of Defensive if you can goad your opponent into attacking Shenlong, right? So if you gain D+1 from Slow Waters Eternal, you can then get either Shenlong to take his (0) in his turn to avoid removing it from him in Upkeep or have a Peasant do that for him. If he is then attacked before his activation, he gains another D+1 that is removed from him at the end of the Turn as opposed to his Activation and repeat the process. That' pretty rad because playing Low River it feels like it can be a disadvantage to activate Shenlong as he loses D+n and so is less effective at healing during his activation and defending after. There are downsides to this as its possible the opponent just won't attack you but you lose nothing you wouldn't already if you were to play it under the interpretation.

That being said, it does seem excessively convoluted to play this way and the rules ethic that has been referred by the designers seems to imply that this particular type of complexity (not complexity in itself) is undesirable in the game. I just wonder if the designers forgot about Conditions resolution Upkeep when designing the Upgrade and Shenlong's card. I say this because if you look at Shenlong's Burn Like Fire and the third books Scion of the Void's Stolen Meaning Trigger the effect is totally different. If Shenlong steals Fast, it only applies in his NEXT activation while the Scion's Trigger takes effect immediately. The latter seems like the intended interaction as it makes more thematic and mechanical sense. It makes more sense if the caveat "as though it had begun its activation with them" is added to the rule: "This model gains all Conditions ended in this way." It also seems like a cleaner way to phrase the Scion's ability but hey. I suppose it means the Scion can have 4 actions if Tara gives out Fast and he steals it though, maybe that's why it is phrased like that on the Scion's card and I am wrong to draw the comparison. That aside, the Defensive interaction with the Upkeep stage does seem messy rather than intentionally complex. As such, the infinite Defensive effect seems more of a loophole than intended interaction.

I am aware this is a RAW vs. RAI argument and would always say play RAW until an FAQ or Errata explicitly addresses the issue otherwise. However, that does not make it meaningless to raise the issue as someone above seemed to imply. The designers and play testers can't foresee every eventuality. No matter how close they get to perfect, no rules set will be. That's why FAQ's and Errata exist, not just to make rules changes but also to clarify intention.

P.S. it's perfectly legal to start with two of the same Style Upgrades on Shenlong and Yu, you just can't make them do that with Monk of Many Styles and Promising Disciple.

[Icemyn]

1 hour ago, chris_havoc said:

I am aware this is a RAW vs. RAI argument and would always say play RAW until an FAQ or Errata explicitly addresses the issue otherwise. However, that does not make it meaningless to raise the issue as someone above seemed to imply. The designers and play testers can't foresee every eventuality. No matter how close they get to perfect, no rules set will be. That's why FAQ's and Errata exist, not just to make rules changes but also to clarify intention.

Given that the other instance gained on Shenlong's card sets the duration of defensive to next activation, it seems more likely that it is intended than not.

1 hour ago, chris_havoc said:

P.S. it's perfectly legal to start with two of the same Style Upgrades on Shenlong and Yu, you just can't make them do that with Monk of Many Styles and Promising Disciple.

You actually can as demonstrated in this thread.

 

1 hour ago, chris_havoc said:

. If Shenlong steals Fast, it only applies in his NEXT activation while the Scion's Trigger takes effect immediately.

If Shenlong steals fast it actually does nothing for him at all. Fast ends at the end of a models activation. Gaining Fast or Slow during your activation is pointless.

[InvokeChaos]

I really enjoyed the listen. Nice to know that I haven't really been playing him wrong, haha.

I was also really in agreement with the comment that Fermented River Style doesn't get enough love, because it doesn't. I've taken out 3 teddies with that style before, just because of the positive flips and his 3AP. And stumbling drunk can be a game changer.

One thing I don't think I heard discussed was the peasant sac-chain.  I do this a lot first couple of turns where I have one peasant hired, get another one from witness a miracle, sac the non slow for a free 0 action, and walk the next one up in preparation.  I keep it within 3' of the scheme marker dropped typically, but far enough away for another scheme, so that the slow peasant can be mighty gusted with 2-3 markers early turn 2. Then I do the whole process again. It basically just nets you a few extra scheme markers overall but that's great for the setup scheme.

I find that using the peasant to provide for the temple is cool, but it can only be used once per turn and they are pretty slow even without the summon. Plus I usually want to ramp conditions on Shen early on. I like to have a poison and burning right off the gate, as well as focus and defensive for turn 2 shenanigans. That way I'm using wandering river, stacking for the misdirection I usually take and prepping for that hot swap to fermented or high river style.

[Tokapondora]

That would mean using a push on a peasant though. And I'm not gonna waste AP on them. Ideally you either have them near 1-2 models each constantly focus/defensiveing them, or you summon one, use the other to use up an activation and turn it into that 0, and use the other to rub some focus on Shenlong. The markers might be picked up by your crew during a push but to use peasants for it is just throwing valuable ap away.

[Cadaverousbirth]

That's why I usually have a big model that likes a push near where that marker will get dropped for free. They can move up where they need to and bring along a marker to boot. 

[InvokeChaos]

1 hour ago, Tokapondora said:

That would mean using a push on a peasant though. And I'm not gonna waste AP on them. Ideally you either have them near 1-2 models each constantly focus/defensiveing them, or you summon one, use the other to use up an activation and turn it into that 0, and use the other to rub some focus on Shenlong. The markers might be picked up by your crew during a push but to use peasants for it is just throwing valuable ap away.

I scored 3 points on setup and then gained a soulstone from using that AP on a peasant to push it near a beater and engage it with their piddly broom. I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree, that is absolutely worth 1 AP. Though admittedly, not like that's going to work everytime

[Tokapondora]

15 minutes ago, InvokeChaos said:

I scored 3 points on setup and then gained a soulstone from using that AP on a peasant to push it near a beater and engage it with their piddly broom. I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree, that is absolutely worth 1 AP. Though admittedly, not like that's going to work everytime

 

I'm not saying pushing a peasant gives you literally nothing, Im saying it would've been a better action had you been able to use your push and the movement of those markers on a unit with an actual plan - setting the model you just pushed up for a bigger play, possibly with fast, and to work towards the rest of your objecives.

[InvokeChaos]

11 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

 

I'm not saying pushing a peasant gives you literally nothing, Im saying it would've been a better action had you been able to use your push and the movement of those markers on a unit with an actual plan - setting the model you just pushed up for a bigger play, possibly with fast, and to work towards the rest of your objecives.

Sometimes you don't have those options.  Shrugs. At the time during that game, that was the best option.

I hear what you are saying, and agree with it. Sure, in a perfect world I'd rather that had been an izamu or something, but that's kind of why Shenlong is so dangerous: you can't discount anything he does.

We're singing the same tune here, I'm just referring specifically to a fun interaction that makes a puny totem neat. Not saying that pushing the peasant is the best choice. But it can still be an awesome one if that's what the situation calls for. In my initial example I was specifically describing something cool to do with just two peasants and Shen. That's all.

But yes. Ideally when trying to score schemes and strats, you want to move your aces in their places and that more often than not means not using mighty gust on a peasant.