Mandatory Summoning and Lack of Models

[Virtus]

I have two questions in regards to this. For all intents and purposes, these questions arose while thinking over the Malifaux rat's tangled ability.

1) What happens if a Malifaux rat triggers tangled, but the player doesn't have a spare rat king model? Does the trigger fizzle, or must the players make due with what they have and say that some other model (with the same base size) is the rat king?

2) Imagine that there is a tournament, and in round one there is a player that has to trigger the tangled ability off of a Malifaux rat, but says he has no more rat king models (in order to keep the rats to continue with multiple activations).  Then in round two, he feels like he doesn't need to out-activate, so he makes that extra rat king. Would he be disqualified? Are you supposed to show all available models that you bring to a tournament, or is that private knowledge?

[solkan]

1.  This is a physical logistics issue (and thus an answer which depends on the physical logistics choices made by the tournament or play group you're a part of).  According to the game, you have an infinite supply of the proper models so that you can always follow the instructions.   

2.  Ask the tournament organizer.  See also the answer to #1.

Do note that it is within the right of a tournament organizer to allow, or forbid, proxies, substitute tokens of the appropriate size, small rats mounted on the appropriate sized plastic shapes, Reaper Bones rats on 30mm bases, cardboard dioramas, or even just a 30mm base with the words "rat" written on the top.

According to the Gaining Grounds documentation, the standard for a Gaining Grounds tournament is:

Quote

Proxy models are not allowed in M2E Tournaments. A player must use the official Wyrd Miniatures model. This prevents a score of issues, most notably an opponent not being able to visually "read" the table.

Conversions, however, are acceptable. They are an excellent way to show off your modelling skills, and that is part of the fun. Original sculpts and conversions are allowed if the Organizer deems them to be accurate representations of the models portrayed. If using a model that was converted with manufactured pieces, no more than 33% of the finished model may be built using other game companies’ models, while the rest must be either wholly or a combination of original sculpt or Wyrd manufactured pieces, as determined by the Organizer. If a model has an officially released (non-beta) stat card available, but no model is yet released, the player may field a conversion, but it must be easily identifiable, as per the Organizer’s discretion.

That would rule out the use of plastic toy rats without additional work, but wouldn't rule out speed sculpting to produce the necessary rat figures (subject to the tournament organizer's approval, of course).

46 minutes ago, Virtus said:

Are you supposed to show all available models that you bring to a tournament, or is that private knowledge?

Please explain your intent in asking this question.

Here's the Sportsmanship paragraph from the Gaining Grounds 2016 document:

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Malifaux is designed to be fun for all players. Players are expected to behave civilly and respectfully at all times. Players must be open and honest about the rules of their models. Activations should be played in a timely manner; players should not waste time. There is zero tolerance for cheating. If the Organizer determines that a player is cheating, the player will be immediately disqualified from the Tournament. Players are given a single warning when the Organizer judges their behavior toward other players or the Organizer to be unacceptable. If the behavior persists and the Organizer determines the player to be a disruption, it is within the Organizer’s authority to disqualify the player from the Tournament. For details of disqualification see the disqualification section.

What elements of your question are not covered by that statement?

[solkan]

53 minutes ago, Virtus said:

 

2) Imagine that there is a tournament, and in round one there is a player that has to trigger the tangled ability off of a Malifaux rat, but says he has no more rat king models (in order to keep the rats to continue with multiple activations).

Just to answer this on its own, in the most explicit manner possible:

NO.

The rules of the game are not optional, and do not become option due to the logistics of plastic or metal model construction.  Creation of rat kings from rats is mandatory.  Failure to have the appropriate rat king models on hand does not invalidate the rule.  At best (or worst), it means that your fellow gracious Malifaux players will provide you with models that you can use for the Rat King models for the duration of the game, because to deprive a player of the full and proper rules for their models due to a deficiency in representation would be unconscionable.

Disclaimer:  At a tournament, the organizer may have in place a policy that a summoned model which a player does not have the model for simply fails while the rest of the effect or action continues as possible.  In such a case, the unavailable Rat King model would not be summoned (the summoning would fail, just like a rare limit had been exceeded) but the rat models would still be removed from play.  But that isn't a policy specified in the Gaining Grounds 2016 document.

 

[Morgan Vening]

As Solkan says, with regards Q2, you wouldn't want to let the player game the system. But I'm also not a fan of it being potentially abused by the other player (with push shenanigans and such).

My suggestion in this situation would be that instead of having four models go poof, for no gain, because of a lack of models, the rat player's opponent can either
a) remove a rat of their choice so that the compulsory effect doesn't apply. It wouldn't count as a kill, sacrifice, or anything that would give an effect or drop a counter. Just gone as if it was never in play.
b) let the ability fizzle with no effect (if it's more beneficial for them)

I think that stops either side from being able to take real advantage of the system (the active player from intentionally not being prepared, the opposing player from taking advantage of a situation wherein their opponent honestly doesn't have it).

That proxies aren't allowed, and that Rat Kings are currently only available as a pair in a $50MSRP box set that 1st Ed players won't have need for the rest of, means some leniency there, I think. At least until (if ever) Rat Kings are released separately. 

[solkan]

For what it's worth, the important point about the Gaining Grounds document is that there are alternatives if you don't have or want the official models, you just have to do a certain amount of creative work.  Because conversions and original sculpts are allowed.  So a "Here's a piece of clay.  Make something that looks vaguely like a bunch of rats trying to imitate a person wrapped in a tarp.  You've got five minutes.  Go!" quality sculpture would fit the requirement.  And, really, a pile of rats underneath a tarp really wouldn't be unrealistic for what those rat kings would look like while they're forming.

I've gotten into the habit of carrying some non-hardening sculpting clay in my gaming supplies box to use for things like emergency replacement tokens, and if someone needed a rat king model in the middle of a game, they'd get provided a clay Emergency Rat King model.  If they wanted to make something more permanent like a wax paper and greenstuff model, they could do that, too.  Or paper mache rat kings, for that matter.

You don't have to spend $50 to buy a box of rat kings to use your rats, but a certain amount of effort for a tournament would be expected.

[Ludvig]

If you are going to have lots of rats in play you should be able to find some sort of proxy on the likely chance that it happens. If you don't have a proxy, don't place the rats so they need to be removed  Just putting a couple of rats on the right base size would satisfy my requirements in a pinch.

Under no circumstanses would I allow the rats to stay on the table. There is a readon that rule isn't optional.

 

Question two should lead to an official warning the first time if you are going by GG I think. No one wants an odd number of players mid tournament unless they have a reserve player. A person knowingly cheating like that may however find it hard to get a spot in future events or even get a casual game in once news of that spread through the local community. 

[Myyrä]

Situation in the question two should never arise, because summoning rat kings isn't optional. If it did actually happen in a tournament I organized, that player would be out on his ass so fast he won't have the time to say "rat king".

[Math Mathonwy]

In #1 I would rule that the same thing would happen as when you couldn't place the summoned model due to terrain and other models.

My interpretation of that would be that the rats go poof and no Rat King comes around but I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

[Bengt]

24 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

In #1 I would rule that the same thing would happen as when you couldn't place the summoned model due to terrain and other models.

My interpretation of that would be that the rats go poof and no Rat King comes around but I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

The summon rules state that if the model can't be placed "...the effect that caused the summon fails.". 'Effect' doesn't have a clear definition so if it's supposed to mean nulling the entire Ability (leaving the rats) or skipping the individual clause that summoned and doing the rest of the Ability (saccing the rats) isn't very clear.

My interpretation would be that the rats remain, i.e. the entire Ability is the 'effect' in the summon rules.

[Math Mathonwy]

24 minutes ago, Bengt said:

The summon rules state that if the model can't be placed "...the effect that caused the summon fails.". 'Effect' doesn't have a clear definition so if it's supposed to mean nulling the entire Ability (leaving the rats) or skipping the individual clause that summoned and doing the rest of the Ability (saccing the rats) isn't very clear.

My interpretation would be that the rats remain, i.e. the entire Ability is the 'effect' in the summon rules.

But wasn't the structure of "do X, then do Y" not conditional on X? For example, I believe that Sammy can use Putrefy to discard an enemy Scheme Marker even if there is not enough room to Summon the Stuffed Piglet or if the Rare limit on Stuffed Piglets has been reached.

[Bengt]

57 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But wasn't the structure of "do X, then do Y" not conditional on X? For example, I believe that Sammy can use Putrefy to discard an enemy Scheme Marker even if there is not enough room to Summon the Stuffed Piglet or if the Rare limit on Stuffed Piglets has been reached.

I don't know, can she? It isn't in the FAQ. I agree that the talents have a very similar structure and should probably be played the same way.

[Math Mathonwy]

32 minutes ago, Bengt said:

I don't know, can she? It isn't in the FAQ. I agree that the talents have a very similar structure and should probably be played the same way.

I have a vivid memory of discussion where it was established that in a construction like "do X to Y" X is a pre-requisite for Y but in constructions like "do X, then do Y" Y can happen even when X doesn't. In other words, in the first X is a price for Y but in the latter they are two effects that happen (or don't) one after the other. But the search doesn't seem to be able to limit to specific forums (it has the option but it doesn't seem to do anything) so I can't find it. Or the memory may have been of a dream - hard to say.

[Bengt]

53 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I have a vivid memory of discussion where it was established that in a construction like "do X to Y" X is a pre-requisite for Y but in constructions like "do X, then do Y" Y can happen even when X doesn't. In other words, in the first X is a price for Y but in the latter they are two effects that happen (or don't) one after the other. But the search doesn't seem to be able to limit to specific forums (it has the option but it doesn't seem to do anything) so I can't find it. Or the memory may have been of a dream - hard to say.

Was the discussion about summoning? I don't disagree with what you are writing when it comes to the general case, but I think for that to apply to summoning we would have to know what "effect" refers to in the summon rules, the full talent or just the clause with summoning in it.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, I think in general you complete as much of the action/ability/whatever as you can. With summoning it's a bit vaguer as Bengt points out.