Hans vs trapper - is Hans underpowered? or the trapper over?

[apes-ma]

I've painted up a hans since I love the model, but I find I hardly ever get him on the board when I have access to a trapper unless I am just keen to take him for a spin, and even then I fi d him super awkward for an 8ss model. He has great triggers, and an insane range, but in a game as terrain heavy as malifaux, and given his horrific walk, I find it's too easy for opponents to just keep out of his way. I'd much rather take a 6ss model that has a better damage spread, movement tricks and from the shadows - but it makes me so sad to take a generic mook over Hans! When do you guys like Hans over trapper? What would make him better without breaking him? I think at least a reduction in cost, if not some kind of mobility or deployment shenanigans. I don't mean to say trapper is overpowered really, but comparing the two models the balance seems wrong.

[Blacks85]

There is no game in Malifaux where you should take Hans over a trapper....there is just no reason at all.

I've tried him many times because I desperately wanted him to have a chance....but it's totally overpriced.

Too costly, too fragile, literally immobile and definitively too much card intensive.

The only good point of him is that he can shoot into melee...but it doesn't worth the price anyway.

 

R.I.P. Hans 

[amanwing]

I think he might be useful for his ability to remove upgrades.

[Kogan Style]

You can use him to Ping! the Infectious Melodies upgrade from Nix to stop the Ratjoy delivery on Turn 1. For Show of Force you can use him to reduce the number of upgrades within 6" to stop your opponent scoring. He'll also score for Hunting Party if he kills something.

 

Overpriced - for sure, but useless? the GG2016 improve Hans' chances of finally getting picked in a crew. 

 

 

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Hans is good in Show of Force....also, not randomising for engagement is great in a melee oriented crew.

Trapper has the advantage that he can run schemes if he has nothing better to do...Hans struggles, but if he's just holding a table corner or something that might not be an issue.  I feel like Hans is perhaps 1 SS too expensive.  The triggers are situational.  Could be brilliant with the right opponent.

[daniello_s]

30 minutes ago, Blacks85 said:

There is no game in Malifaux where you should take Hans over a trapper....there is just no reason at all.

I've tried him many times because I desperately wanted him to have a chance....but it's totally overpriced.

Too costly, too fragile, literally immobile and definitively too much card intensive.

The only good point of him is that he can shoot into melee...but it doesn't worth the price anyway.

 

R.I.P. Hans 

Even with Hunting Party in the pool? Really?...

[Adran]

Have you considered the power of a "Scout the field" Hans? He can literally shoot anything on the board in the first turn. Worried about that Pigapult behind a wall? Let Hans scout the field and when he references the field guide, its nothing put a pile of scrap. 

The trapper is a cheaper way to just shoot things, but Hans' triggers can change a game. As can the threat of upgrade removal. Is it worth it? Not always, btu certainly there are times it is. 

[apes-ma]

The hunting party and show of force examples are good - although it's so card intensive to get him to shoot an upgrade off it can almost neuter your crew for the rest of the turn if you are referencing the field guide as well. An 11 of crows makes it pretty hard to get "Smile you son of a..." off, and it's another card if you use "Reference the Field Guide" to get it. I wish he had Adaptive, like Bishop, or a bit more walk, or was a stone cheaper. Or even a + flip to shoot? That might be a bit strong with Sh6 though.

Scout the Field Hans is awesome, but it puts the whole package up to 10SS for, essentially, a single trick - after which he's totally dependent on the opponent walking into his field of fire, or just not caring about his mediocre damage track. For 10SS you could hire Strongarm or Lazarus... If you aren't expecting a pigapult then these seem like much better uses of 10SS.

The best use I have ever got out of him is, as someone pointed out, in a melee-centric crew, with Turf War in the pool, so I can predict to some extent where models are going to be - that enables you to deploy him where he needs to be. I feel like Hans is one of those models where a lot of the skill in playing him comes from deployment.

[CapnBloodbeard]

Scout the field is 1 SS, not 2 - so 9 SS total.

 

You're right about 'smile, you son of a...' needing an 11 is pretty rough.  At least if you hit you're kneecapping somebody (if you want to discard another card), but you may have to cheat.....so easily burning 3 cards just to knock an upgrade off a model.

[Math Mathonwy]

The Trapper is hilariously overpowered.

[apes-ma]

19 minutes ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Scout the field is 1 SS, not 2 - so 9 SS total.

 

You're right about 'smile, you son of a...' needing an 11 is pretty rough.  At least if you hit you're kneecapping somebody (if you want to discard another card), but you may have to cheat.....so easily burning 3 cards just to knock an upgrade off a model.

Yeah - it's just too much I think. I really think the model would be much more useable, and not even close to broken, if it could gain suits without having to drop cards to do it. On top of that, TWO of his triggers need a discard just to work! I hope the rest of the crew don't like cards in hand!

[Munindk]

6 minutes ago, apes-ma said:

I hope the rest of the crew don't like cards in hand!

A Tara crew?

[CapnBloodbeard]

7 minutes ago, apes-ma said:

Yeah - it's just too much I think. I really think the model would be much more useable, and not even close to broken, if it could gain suits without having to drop cards to do it. On top of that, TWO of his triggers need a discard just to work! I hope the rest of the crew don't like cards in hand!

Let's not forget that one of the best upgrades in the game - I pay better - is Outcasts.  So, particularly turn 1, you're discarding a card to focus....

[apes-ma]

39 minutes ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Let's not forget that one of the best upgrades in the game - I pay better - is Outcasts.  So, particularly turn 1, you're discarding a card to focus....

Might as well have him near Aionus as well, and chuck a 9 to give him fast!

[apes-ma]

41 minutes ago, Munindk said:

A Tara crew?

Tara and Jack Daw are where I have been trying to fit him in actually. Tara because, as you say, you often don't mind dropping the cards and also Death Marshals and their Pine Boxes can help ship him around, and Jack because once he's tormented you can get more use out of his rifle, and also push him about a bit when you need to. Still, though, I often find he doesn't make the cut unless there's a tower I can put him in in my deployment or something.

[valhallan42nd]

He works quite well in a Tara crew, especially against Lilith and her friggin' trees.

[Blacks85]

I think your overestimating his possibilities in Show of Force and underestimating how card-intensive he is.

You need a 11suited to hit the "Son of a ...." and he's not an enforcer. It means you need to discard a card (Assuming you're lucky and you have a low suited card) then discard another card to reach the TN and cast the spell. This makes 2 cards and 1 action without doing anything...

Finally you can try to shoot (Without focus eh...) so in close range or discard another card with "I pay better". In the second case, it makes 3 cards and you didn't attacked yet...in the first case you are close to people and they super easily 1 shot you.

At this point, if you are lucky you can win the duel with attack action and let your opponent cheat first. Otherwise, you have to cheat first considering you already used a 11+ card and other 1-2 cards. If you are lucky enough to win, you have discarded a 1SS upgrade from someone and - perhaps - it would make difference in the upgrade count....or - in most cases - you have used 1 activation and 3 cards to do nothing....absolutely nothing.

You now have half of your hand and 2-3 or maybe 4 cards less to defend from enemy attacks and - likely - the opponent can directly kill one of your guy with the upgrade because you have no defensive high cards and your enforcer will just die as a sheep.

Boom, that's Hans...and that's the bitter true.

Wyrd please, buff him.

Honestly? I will choose a trapper even if he would cost 6, maybe at 5 I can get it.

Speaking of "Hunting party", I always do a crew with only 1 peon / minion who sit back as a trapper or malifaux child and there you have no chance to score VP 

[apes-ma]

23 minutes ago, Blacks85 said:

I think your overestimating his possibilities in Show of Force and underestimating how card-intensive he is.

You need a 11suited to hit the "Son of a ...." and he's not an enforcer. It means you need to discard a card (Assuming you're lucky and you have a low suited card) then discard another card to reach the TN and cast the spell. This makes 2 cards and 1 action without doing anything...

Finally you can try to shoot (Without focus eh...) so in close range or discard another card with "I pay better". In the second case, it makes 3 cards and you didn't attacked yet...in the first case you are close to people and they super easily 1 shot you.

At this point, if you are lucky you can win the duel with attack action and let your opponent cheat first. Otherwise, you have to cheat first considering you already used a 11+ card and other 1-2 cards. If you are lucky enough to win, you have discarded a 1SS upgrade from someone and - perhaps - it would make difference in the upgrade count....or - in most cases - you have used 1 activation and 3 cards to do nothing....absolutely nothing.

You now have half of your hand and 2-3 or maybe 4 cards less to defend from enemy attacks and - likely - the opponent can directly kill one of your guy with the upgrade because you have no defensive high cards and your enforcer will just die as a sheep.

Boom, that's Hans...and that's the bitter true.

Wyrd please, buff him.

Honestly? I will choose a trapper even if he would cost 6, maybe at 5 I can get it.

Speaking of "Hunting party", I always do a crew with only 1 peon / minion who sit back as a trapper or malifaux child and there you have no chance to score VP 

This is exactly it - the set-up cost is SO high for what is essentially a pretty minimal payoff in most cases. I really hope Wyrd come up with a 0SS upgrade for him.

[daniello_s]

I see some people put a final verdict on Hans already so there is a little point in arguing here.

[Eclipse]

For argument's sake Hans has two very important features that are not often appreciated: The ability to pierce Armor and Ruthless. This means that he can usually be useful when expecting an armored enemy crew and/or many Wp duels. This in itself saves you a good deal of resources. You are by no means obligated to discard a card for Scout the Field or to give Slow, you can decide when it comes to it whether to use the ability or not. After all, these -are- situational abilities. If you find that you can disable two important enemy models by Slowing them down, by all means discard two or three cards for the Slow.
In any case, I have only played Misaki as Outcasts and most of the time play as Neverborn or Ten Thunders. This means that hiring Hans OoF becomes even more expensive and so giving him an upgrade on top is even less viable - at least Lazarus has a little more mobility, Armor+2, blasts, a pretty solid melee attack for only 2SS more. At least with (0) Hidden Agenda on Hans or Fuhatsu and two Oiran (another model on the lower curve of power) I can play introductory games with people. Oh, and the Mysterious Emissary can (0) push him and give him Fast.

This is like writing 
<script>alert(1)/<script>
in Firebug to check if there is a security breach in the login functionality.

Basically take Hans when you are not trying to be as competitive as possible, I guess. If you are too high-strung on winning every game models like Hans shouldn't be considered by you, anyway.

[Khoregard]

I've put some effort into using him in jack daw crews due to the fact he can just push forward at the same speed as his walk, and he adds yet another element of debuff to Jack, which is hilarious. Due to the fact he ignores engagement, and has a trigger for every suit, i feel like hes a much better all-comers selection. I agree he feels overpriced though primarily as the trapper gets a natural positive to its sh5 over the sh6. The only target I have ever "Smile, you sonuva" is with obey hamelin running I pay better, piper, and hans with scout the field to drop mark of shezuul off the sister of blood. It was worth it though.

[apes-ma]

11 hours ago, Eclipse said:

For argument's sake Hans has two very important features that are not often appreciated: The ability to pierce Armor and Ruthless. This means that he can usually be useful when expecting an armored enemy crew and/or many Wp duels. This in itself saves you a good deal of resources. You are by no means obligated to discard a card for Scout the Field or to give Slow, you can decide when it comes to it whether to use the ability or not. After all, these -are- situational abilities. If you find that you can disable two important enemy models by Slowing them down, by all means discard two or three cards for the Slow.
In any case, I have only played Misaki as Outcasts and most of the time play as Neverborn or Ten Thunders. This means that hiring Hans OoF becomes even more expensive and so giving him an upgrade on top is even less viable - at least Lazarus has a little more mobility, Armor+2, blasts, a pretty solid melee attack for only 2SS more. At least with (0) Hidden Agenda on Hans or Fuhatsu and two Oiran (another model on the lower curve of power) I can play introductory games with people. Oh, and the Mysterious Emissary can (0) push him and give him Fast.

This is like writing 
<script>alert(1)/<script>
in Firebug to check if there is a security breach in the login functionality.

Basically take Hans when you are not trying to be as competitive as possible, I guess. If you are too high-strung on winning every game models like Hans shouldn't be considered by you, anyway.

Whilst I'm not sure about the Firebug comparison... Those are really good points about armour, and horror duels. And yeah, also, of course, when you are playing for fun you just take the models you like!

[Blacks85]

yep, if you play for fun you just do not care about "underpower", "overpower" or whatever...you just have fun!

So I guess it's out of the purpose of this post and yes, you'll take it!

But in my opinion...is not even fun to play

You just have one extra action per turn that is a shoot...I found jack daw random tormented or some other random model with more interaction way more funny to play for fun

[Jokerboy]

He is good with Shenlong. Give him Recalled training und let him shoot focused twice (Fast). With Sh7 near Sensei Yu and plus Flips he deals a lot of damage.

But I have to say that all models are good if they are Fast and have Recalled Training.

[Adran]

Every person has their own definition of what's fun. 

I think Hans' ability to remove upgrades has the potential to be game defining. Its almost exclusively why he has the Highest bidder ability, but there are plenty of models who have a role based on their upgrades. And if you can attack a players hands in other ways, then removing upgrades from a master can be huge. (try playing a summoning Dreamer list when he can't summon for example). His existence in the game probably allows more powerful upgrades because if some combination of them becomes too strong, then he is a good meta choice. 

No he isn't the strongest model out there, and if I just want ranged Damage, then I'm probably not going to pick him. If I want to stop an Illuminated killing my crew, then Hans is much better at it than a trapper would be, and probably almost as good as 2 trappers. (thats him in one of his best positions against trappers at one of their worst, but its not that unlikely a scenario)