Hoffman - How does he play?

[graeme27uk]

After a break from Malifaux, I am thinking of picking it up again. The new Hoffman crew looks great and the idea of his crew has always intrigued me. Also, I like playing Leveticus so there is some cross-over there in terms of models. 

How does Hoffman play though on the table? I have been researching but would like to hear from actual people rather than just theoryfaux. 

Apart from his core crew box, what would be the best things to get in terms of expanding his crew?

What are the things to watch for when playing with Hoffman?

[Gnomezilla]

At the best of times, it's my opponent shouting WHY WON'T THIS THING DIIIIE after defense 6 willpower 6 blocked 2/5ths of the damage, armor absorbed 2/5ths of the damage and I healed the rest; meanwhile I'm making a mental note to clean gobbets of black blood off of aforementioned construct's claws...again...after I have employed said claws for the sixth or seventh time in a turn.

At the worst of times, it's my opponent snickering as Hoffman wanders off after one of the rotten belles and ends up alone, without constructs, without 'armor', and without pants. (We choose not to hard counter each other: I don't bring remote mines upgrade and she doesn't bring relic hammers.)

The crew box lacks a construct which has resilience and decent damage in the same model. Fill in with a sturdier beatstick. The crew box's ranged attack is 10" and you'll have to judge whether that's sufficient range for you.

The control bubble is...small. Short range. Very. It's easy to get yourself into a traffic jam in a narrow spot, or get the bubble pinned into one table quarter, or just plain get out-ranged.

[Freman]

In Guild, Ryle and the Peacekeeper, also Wardens are a good option. A second Watcher would be good, but unless you can hunt down a metal one it's not worth buying another Hoffman box just for that.

From Arcanists, Joss (one of the best beatstick henchmen in the game) and Howard. A single Metal Gamin makes a big difference to Hoffman's casting and is often a better choice than his totem. A spider swarm can do nasty things with a boosted Ml from the power loop. The Soulstone Miner is a great scheme runner, with its ability to come up where you want, but it probably won't benefit from Hoffman's bubble very often. Fortunately it's fairly self-reliant.

Basically as purchases, Hoffman's box, Ramos's box, Metal Gamin, then any other constructs you might like to play with. Ryle is kind of like a more survivable Lazarus (who you can't take because he hates Guild).

[admiralvorkraft]

I've come around to the opinion that Metal Gamin are a bit of a trap and I'd challenge myself to see what I can do without them if I were you. But then I don't bother with Arcanist Assets generally any more... The (0) is quite nice, and I'm tempted to take it just for that.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I've come around to the opinion that Metal Gamin are a bit of a trap and I'd challenge myself to see what I can do without them if I were you. But then I don't bother with Arcanist Assets generally any more... The (0) is quite nice, and I'm tempted to take it just for that.

Seems legit. I don't play Hoffman but he only needs a 4 to do his stuff regularly so it seems kind of stupid-greedy (not sure what the english term for this is) to get a model for 4 ss to push it down to needing a 2.

[trikk]

Lucius should have a metal-gaminish thing that would bump his Ca by 2

[admiralvorkraft]

8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Seems legit. I don't play Hoffman but he only needs a 4 to do his stuff regularly so it seems kind of stupid-greedy (not sure what the english term for this is) to get a model for 4 ss to push it down to needing a 2.

He needs an 8 (well, a 7 in any realistic scenario, probably a 6 because of Empower) for Redirect Power - which spreads Power Loop. So I can see how someone who wanted to play into the Power Loop thing would bring the Gamin. I did the first however many times I played him. 

But yeah, he only needs a 4/5 on Machine puppet to make that work and the difference between needing a 4 and a 2 is a lot less significant than between a 6 and a 4.

[LunarSol]

11 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I've come around to the opinion that Metal Gamin are a bit of a trap and I'd challenge myself to see what I can do without them if I were you. But then I don't bother with Arcanist Assets generally any more... The (0) is quite nice, and I'm tempted to take it just for that.

This feeling has been creeping up on me as well.  Sacrificing a free loop to make other loops slightly easier has started to feel questionable.  It's probably worth paying attention to how many times if actually affects Hoffman's activation.  I suspect in most games it will be once, maybe twice at best.  

I do think in general the sense that everything needs to be in the loop is something of a crew building trap that lends towards smaller model counts and a greater sense of the need for the Metal Gamin. I haven't broken free of the tendency to lean on Constructs yet, but I do often feel that things like the Warden can be replaced with the very similar but more self sufficient Soulstone Miner for exapmle.  I really, really need to spreadsheet the construct list one of these days to sit down and get an idea of what models are best not only in terms of providing benefits, but receiving them as well.  I often find Looping things in like the Guardian annoying, as its not gaining nearly as much from the loop as it could. 

As for Arcane Assets, I think the Emissary has created some really interesting questions there by creating a more active source of Df and Sh for the loop.  I find I usually want something (even just the Toolkit) but I am finding myself just taking 1 model and wondering if I could free up the upgrade slot.

Glad this topic came up though.  I feel like Hoffman is a great master for some serious discussion.  He's one of the few where crew composition really matters and there are quite a few options with pretty significant consequences.  I'll see if I can get together some info to make some real thought into the big picture.

[Myyrä]

Nowadays I just loop the Emissary and Howard or Ryle with Hoffman, unless I happen to get the trigger for free loop. Leaves so much more AP for machine puppeting and other useful stuff.

[admiralvorkraft]

I loop the Emissary for free, and usually the Peacekeeper. Shakedown something, OSA Brutal Deconstruction to get a second scrap, Patchwork Plating on the Emissary, Hydraulics on the PK. Fourth AP is up for grabs, but that's basically top of Turn 1 for me.

[Gnomezilla]

...We can get scrap on a (1) now instead of having to pull a pseudo-Ramos sacrifice to get two scrap on any given turn? Me likey.

[admiralvorkraft]

I mean it's two damage on something, but that's nothing for Hoffman.

[trikk]

Its usually 1 damage, as Armour works on Rapid Deconstruction

 

I think I`m buying the Hoffvatar soon

[Gnomezilla]

Everything I ever hear about the Brutal Emissary just makes me go all girly and giggly.

The mini, I have (although it still creeps me out to look at the box art, some days, thus still unassembled). It's the lack of Shifting Loyalties, and the desire to keep the friends I've made, that's the problem.

[Surrealistik]

Emissary definitely opens up some interesting possibilities, such as this Emissary bomb list below, beyond the amazing, obvious utility it offers for more traditional lists. Don't forget about the Death Marshal (or other bury mechanism like OSA "Back In The Box") + Emissary + Scheme runner (Hydraulics or Programmed Directive Watcher/Soulstone Miner are pretty good) combo that allows you to basically teleport models around, friendly or otherwise, out to arbitrary distances.

In general I feel Emissary is pretty much a must have for Hoffman lists given its incredible utility and point efficiency.

 

[LunarSol]

It is kind of funny how the Emissary just kind of casually cleans up the entire Loop on his own.  Doesn't benefit all that much from it, but he feeds pretty much every other model almost as well as you could hope.  The big improvement though is defense as the others are all fairly easy to come by (aka, a Peacekeeper).

The only models that do more for the loop in any stat are the Metal Gamin, Howard, and the Guardian.  There is kind of a nice synergy in that, as the Rail Golem and Swarm probably have the most to benefit from Ml and Ca stat increases.  

[Myyrä]

7 hours ago, LunarSol said:

It is kind of funny how the Emissary just kind of casually cleans up the entire Loop on his own.  Doesn't benefit all that much from it, but he feeds pretty much every other model almost as well as you could hope.  The big improvement though is defense as the others are all fairly easy to come by (aka, a Peacekeeper).

The only models that do more for the loop in any stat are the Metal Gamin, Howard, and the Guardian.  There is kind of a nice synergy in that, as the Rail Golem and Swarm probably have the most to benefit from Ml and Ca stat increases.  

The Emissary only really brings Df 6 and Sh 6, because Hoffmeister himself has Wp 6, Ml 6 and Ca 6. Not to say that isn't really nice, but it's not quite as spectacular as you make it sound like.

[trikk]

Guess who ordered the Hoffvatar? 

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, trikk said:

Guess who ordered the Hoffvatar? 

Everyone and their mom?

[trikk]

And now also me

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

And now also me

Isn't it a rather cool sculpt that you could use for everyone's emmissary? 

[trikk]

Apart from stepping a bit from Guild in favour of the Arcanist challenge (Kaeris and Ironsides) I don`t find him particularly good for most masters, when I compare him to 10SS options. He`s a good tank with Destined, Armour and HtW but I can`t see the benefits of the whole bury thing except Hoff (Loop) and Lucius (Backstab) probably.

 

I also have a bunch of newly-painted Guild models that I need to test as I have a paint to play ratio of around 3:1...

[Ludvig]

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

Apart from stepping a bit from Guild in favour of the Arcanist challenge (Kaeris and Ironsides) I don`t find him particularly good for most masters, when I compare him to 10SS options. He`s a good tank with Destined, Armour and HtW but I can`t see the benefits of the whole bury thing except Hoff (Loop) and Lucius (Backstab) probably.

 

I also have a bunch of newly-painted Guild models that I need to test as I have a paint to play ratio of around 3:1...

You may be right. I tried fitting him into a couple of Lucius lists the other day but I keep coming back to Francisco seeming better. I did consider Francisco with Diestro for fun times all around together with the Emmissary's free attacks.  Spammy lists can kiss everything goodbye if you manage to set that up. There's just the tiny detail of needing to keep Francisco alive.

I'm still excited for playing it with Lady J but I haven't managed to assemble/paint either model.

You should try the Arcanist Emmissary next time on vassal, you don't need Langston anyway  

[trikk]

When I play Justice after Francisco I`d probably take Sidir/Judge over Emissary.

I don`t usually have a lot of Marshals with Justice (I hope wave 4 will change that), so Condemnation doesn`t seem that nice and he needs that scheme marker setup turn 1-2 to be effective.

With Sonnia he`s good, but he`s not Franc+Papa-in-box good.

With Perdita he`s ok. Same with McCabe. (as he basically costs 8SS). Now I`m waiting for Myyra to bash my head around and show me how wrong I am

 

I`m not playing the Arcanist Emissary because I only play with models I have painted/in painting.

[LunarSol]

8 hours ago, Myyrä said:

The Emissary only really brings Df 6 and Sh 6, because Hoffmeister himself has Wp 6, Ml 6 and Ca 6. Not to say that isn't really nice, but it's not quite as spectacular as you make it sound like.

Yup!  Which is why I specifically said the main draw is the Df buff.  Hoffman provides most everything to the loop as is.

As for the Emissary, the nice thing with Sonnia is he gets Papa's gun while he's in the box.  He's got some tough competition from Franc, but I think he can give the Judge a run for the spot in a crew with the right Masters.  Probably his biggest issue is just that he really increases the demand on Death marshals, as its just not very practical to box things himself, let alone copy things that way.