Ramos' "Summon the Swarm"

[Erik1978]

Hey there.

The (overly used) Ramos, has a summoning spell saying: "Choose to summon one, two, or three steam arachnids." (Then a wall of text)

Does this mean my opponent has to declare a number, and can then only summon the declared amount?

For instance if he says he wants to summon 2, then Soul Stones for a TOME and flips a red joker, he then summons 2 even though he could have summoned 3?

Similarly, if he wants to summon 2 but only flips a 7 of rams, he won't summon 1, he will just fail?

Or: Can he just flip a card, see what that amounts to and then put the number of arachnids on?

On another note, why are arachnids not peons? 3 arachnids every turn, with great speed, great Df/Wp, armor, unimpeeded etc. In other words the perfect scheme runners, not to mention flooding the table with way too effective and cheap spiders. With most schemes, these guys are 6 VP in the bag and more than a little nuisance for the opponent. If they get too wounded, they simply team up to make an arachnid swarm. Seems the best summoning mechanic in the game?

[DrayZed]

Yes, he has to summon the number that he declares.

Arachnids are the only really relevant thing that Ramos can summon in the most part, and at the cost of an 11+ of tomes, a scrap marker, and a soulstone every turn to summon three spiders, that's fairly taxing on a players resources. Other factions have the ability to summon significant models as well, and they are all slow for the turn they are summoned on top of being insignificant. Arachnids are also effectively either tarpits or scheme runners. They do not have a great damage track, or melee attack (which is offset by "Latch On", but I digress). They're fine as is.

[Breng77]

Have a few weaknesses?  They do they have few wounds and come in wounded.  They are weak against things that ignore armor.  They are decent scheme runners, but there are plenty better.  Are they annoying to kill sure they are, but that is about it.

[Tuttleboy]

Choose how many, then cast the spell.

[Erik1978]

Thanks.

All summoned are slow, most people just only get 1 at a time. Like Nicodem, sure he can summon something better but he usually also spends a SS and a high card. Ramos can hire a cheap (Electric creation?) sacrificial pawn and then 4-5 hard hitters because after the first 2-3 spiders emerging in turn 1, there won't be a lack of scrap markers for the rest of the game, and the spiders take care of everything scheme wise, and tar pit wise, as you say, while the hard hitters can smash the poor souls bogged down by the -1 Df giving critters. Seems very easy and very effective.

[Bengt]

There are 4 cards (11-13, Red Joker) in the deck that lets you summon 3 arachnids, it's not something that will even happen in every game. But yeah with stoning he can get two most turns if he wants to. Other summoners can summon a variety of things, some of which are in the 8-9 stone range, as many times as they have resources (so typically up to three times a turn).

Summoning is strong, but Ramos is on par with the other summoners.

[Erik1978]

First time I met Ramos he summoned 15 spiders in 5 turns, 2nd time he "only" summoned 12... doesn't seem that rare to me, with 3 every turn.

[LunarSol]

Requires a face card of tomes and soulstone to summon 3. Doing that reliably requires a bit of fortune. 

[Bengt]

2 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

First time I met Ramos he summoned 15 spiders in 5 turns, 2nd time he "only" summoned 12... doesn't seem that rare to me, with 3 every turn.

That is very lucky. Anecdotes doesn't prove something is broken though.

[Erik1978]

That's true but like I said: steam arachnids are a bit too effecient scheme runners (and annoyances) to justify summoning 2-3 of them every turn. Even without the so called luck, even 8 of these are more than enough to tip the scales. Hard to get rid of with the stats and speed they have. They should either be peons or have a few weaknesses IMO. Oh well.

[Erik1978]

Every time Im up against them, there are plenty of things that can heal them, and if that fails they unite into a swarm which is not a bad model either. Even if you have some ignore armor/good shooters etc. you can't focus too much on those newly arrived spiders unless you want to let the rest of his crew cruise freely. 

[Breng77]

It depends on what is shooting,attacking.  Anything doing reliably 3 damage can take out 2 spiders in one activation without too much trouble (if 3 are summoned).  Before they are able to heal.  I'm not saying it is always smart or easy but as far as summoning goes I would argue they are on the weak end for summoners.

[LunarSol]

Just to compare, for a face card, Ressers can get Hanged, Students, or Punks.  Dreamer gets one of the demon twins or Coppy.

[DrayZed]

In order to summon a swarm, two other steam arachnids must be in base contact with the the currently activated steam arachnid. If a player is to get any value out of the other two summoned arachnids before combining, them, the player must summon them close enough to attack an opponent. Otherwise, the net gain is only ~1 activation worth of ap. Not the most cost effective thing as Ramo's totem does have the ability to give reactivate. The other complaint is that they have too many wounds. Min Damage 3 is generally a magic number for many factions, and a min damage 3 would easily kill a single team arachnid if three were summoned. Healing summoned spiders is generally not a good use of ap as a total of 5 damage when healed is enough to kill them. 

TLDR;

If you're concerned about the steam arachnids, there are PLENTY of other things in a Ramos' crew that you should be killing to win the game.
 

[farabaugh100]

Having Hunting Party as a suited scheme helps a lot too.

[Erik1978]

1 hour ago, Breng77 said:

It depends on what is shooting,attacking.  Anything doing reliably 3 damage can take out 2 spiders in one activation without too much trouble (if 3 are summoned).  Before they are able to heal.  I'm not saying it is always smart or easy but as far as summoning goes I would argue they are on the weak end for summoners.

Spiders have excellent Df so it's usually harder to do than one would like. I agree ressers can summon something many times better, my point is that a great scheme runner shouldn't come in pairs or even 3 at a time. A punk zombie is a threat and a great addition, most of the time but when it comes to capturing quarters or placing scheme markers the 2-3 spiders do it a lot better.

[LunarSol]

Kind of like Crooligans and Canine Remains?

[Erik1978]

Imagine if Nicodem could summon 1-3 Canine Remains for 1 corpse marker.

[LunarSol]

As the only summon available to him?  Maybe.

I get you had a bad experience with Ramos, but it does sound a bit like things were either played wrong, absurd card luck occurred, or you got caught unprepared (or quite possibly all 3).  Ramos is certainly strong, but very beatable.

[Erik1978]

Everyone is beatable, which is great about Malifaux. Ramos just has a very very strong trick up his sleeve, which requires little to no skill to use. Some Masters require practise and timing, Ramos is very point and click: fill the table with spiders and your opponent is outnumbered 2 to 1, which will always cause problems.

If I had more experience I'm sure Ramos would be less annoying but it just seems to me they made spiders too allround good to justify 1-3 spiders for ONE scrap marker. 

[Nexus]

When I was playing Nicodem, I was getting out 2 Punk Zombies a turn.  
Those are definitely more of a threat than 2 mechanical spiders a turn. 
...actually, most Rezzers seem to outsummon poor ol' Ramos. 

[Erik1978]

I would say 2 punk zombies every turn is more rare than 3 spiders every turn but this thread seems to be going in circles. Thanks to all for joining.

[Bengt]

Any 11+ card gives you a punk zombie, so there are 13 in the deck. As opposed to the 4 cards that give you three spiders.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

I would say 2 punk zombies every turn is more rare than 3 spiders every turn but this thread seems to be going in circles. Thanks to all for joining.

Swarm Summoning target numbers:

1:  13

2:  16

3:  19

from a base attribute of 8.  In other words, it's not (10+3 per swarm) for the target number, it's 10 + 3 per spider swarm, so that you need one  per spider and you only get one for free from the Ca value.  It's not a flat two symbols and an increasing target number like Nicodem's Reanimator is.

Which means:

1:  Pretty trivial, just need 5 or better as long as you haven't dropped your Ca suit due an enemy ability.

2:  8+ in or spending a soul stone for an 8+ in anything.

3:  You've spent a soul stone, and you're either a reckless person betting on the flip being an 11, 12, 13 or Red Joker or you're going to cheat one of those four cards.  And note that you're not allowed to spend two soul stones to get two tomes.

 

If you're not seeing two punk zombies more common than that, the Arcanist player owes the Rezzer free drinks and a share of the lottery winnings. 

[Breng77]

Exactly I have never outnumbered an opponent 2-1 unless I killed most of their models.  Most of the time I only have 3-5 spiders in play at any time usually closer to 3.  Average summoning 2 per turn and 1 dying.  Sure it only costs 1 scrap, but it is more difficult for arcanists to generate scrap than for resets to generate corpses as it always requires killing a model.   I'm certainly not saying he is bad, he is very good at the things he is good at.  However, as a general use summoner I'd rank him as 3rd or 4th best in the game due to the lack of variety of what he summons.

[Erik1978]

I guess Im playing against card hustlers or something.

Also, the 2 punks need a corpse marker each, I rarely have 2 each turn, even if I have cut out a spleen or two.

When Im playing Nicodem I very rarely summon 2 things a turn, I find it rarely pays off in comparison to staying with the crew to give them the 6" bubble and handing out Fast but then again I've haven't played in as many years as most others have.