Monks of Low River

[Cadaverousbirth]

Hi guys and gals,

I'll be picking up some Low River Monks soon and am wondering what people's experience with them is. 

Mate they an auto-include if your opponent declares Ressers? How about Arcanists for the burning?

Would you rather spend 5 stones on a 10T Brothet for scheme running? Or eve more for a Wandering River monk?

With the changes to conditions in GG2016, how do you feel this affects the playability of our peaceful minions?

[BigHammer]

I own three Low River Monks, and use none of them these days. If I feel my crew is going to *need* condition removal, I will either bring Chiaki or Sensei Yu with Low River Style attached, depending on how heavily I want to invest in it. Chiaki alone does nearly everything a Low River Monk does far, far better, and brings a lot more versatility to any crew, for only 2SS more than a monk.

The times they would be most beneficial are against very specific masters, and unless you're playing a fixed-master event or your opponent only has one master to play with, guaranteeing that they would have a place is pretty much impossible.

Eg: They are decent against McMourning, Brewmaster, Tara and Hamelin, who throw out a lot of debuffing conditions on enemy models, but other masters in these masters' factions might not use conditions at all. The monks don't do a heck of a lot more than remove conditions, and they fold like a wet paper bag, so most of the time they can work out to just be a waste of stones.

This might not be the case forever, though...

[Cadaverousbirth]

How about for Jack Daw's crew handing out Tormented to either crew? One good whack on the head, no more being pushed around by guilt. 

[tomjoad]

I actually never ever hire Chiaki, even with Yan Lo, because I think Low Rivers are so much better. They're worse than tengu for just being scheme runners, but they're good enough at that or at trying to lock down your opponent's schemers. If I think I'll need some condition removal though, I'll add a monk in a heartbeat though.

[ScareMeTrav]

I played with one for the first time last night and plan on doing it again. He sat center board the entire match for the strategy. 0 action to heal 2 actions for Defense 2 every turn. He wasted my opponents time and was a huge distraction. Worth the 5 SS.

[Yvarre]

I had fun painting their capes and shaved heads, but the only time I fielded one against McMourning it died fast.  They are getting some upgrade love in the next book, however, but they will still have to compete with many other great options in their soulstone range.  I am also in the camp of bringing Chiaki if I need dedicated condition removal, as she does it as a ranged cast instead of 1" melee with no charge.

[Grendol]

I just picked Johan up for some condition removal (because i'm also doing outcasts).  He's 7 stones with Merc tax but has a ranged condition removal (but does need suit and tn, but also has a good attack, wounds,defences. The problem I have with the Low river monks isn't just their only "attack" is condition removal but its 1 inch range, so your almost always going to have to use 1ap to get them into base contact. Never tried Chiaki but she sounds pretty awesome to!

[daniello_s]

23 hours ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

How about for Jack Daw's crew handing out Tormented to either crew? One good whack on the head, no more being pushed around by guilt. 

Tormented is not condition but characteristic so you can hire as many Low River Monks as you want and Jack and Guilty will work as usual.

[Gennosuke]

 

The only thing I find them good enough it's for protect territory, nvesting all their APs placing two scheme markers, and standing betwen them defensive-ing the rest of the game. The problem is, 10T Borhters do that so much better for just one soulstone more, and still are way more versatile.

So... It's hard to justify including them in any crew (mine at least). Hapy to hear they are supposed to get some kind of "fixing" in wave 4, though.

[tomjoad]

On 1/31/2016 at 3:59 PM, Gennosuke said:

 

The only thing I find them good enough it's for protect territory, nvesting all their APs placing two scheme markers, and standing betwen them defensive-ing the rest of the game. The problem is, 10T Borhters do that so much better for just one soulstone more, and still are way more versatile.

So... It's hard to justify including them in any crew (mine at least). Hapy to hear they are supposed to get some kind of "fixing" in wave 4, though.

I really wish High Rivers had won that vote, since I think they need WAAAY more help.

Low Rivers do have that short range, and it can be a drag, but they cost 33% less than Chiaki and their removal always works when targeting a friendly model and is more likely to work against an enemy that does happen to be within range, while Chiaki often requires a card from hand just to hit the TN. Johan is awesome, but I can't see hiring him into a 10T crew very often, just because we have so many other options that fulfil the same roles, and usually for fewer SS.

[BigHammer]

The reason I prefer Chiaki for the job is because she's more mobile (thanks to Incorporeal), tougher (thanks to Wd7 and Incorporeal), has a trigger on her condition removal to also heal, and because her (0) action is so, so good. She can harass an enemy scheme runner from a massive distance, and if you have a high tome in hand, she gets better at everything she does by accumulating Chi from its trigger. She can also potentially clear out an area by pushing enemies away from her, and her upgrade, though it makes her cost nearly as much as two monks, can turn her into a strong control piece if she camps out a central location, handing out Slow to up to four models a turn, with the right cards and maybe a point or two of Chi.

The monks, on the other hand, tend to die very easily (Df5 Wd5 does not go far at all), and can only remove a single condition from a model they start within 6" of, unless you devote other support pieces to moving them about (which immediately makes them more expensive). Chiaki does her job from further away without support, and, yes, maybe you need to keep a 7 in hand if you want to guarantee that condition removal works, but that's not a terribly high price IMO.

[Gennosuke]

8 hours ago, tomjoad said:

I really wish High Rivers had won that vote, since I think they need WAAAY more help.

I've heard that several times, but I don't find them that bad. Both Wander the Earth and Ruthless are incredible useful skills (well, the later more dependant on the enmy crew, but still). Also, Call Unto The Flame makes it quite reliable to do 3Dg+3Burning to most targets, which should be enough to kill most enemy scheme runners. Plus their 9" threat range, it *should* be rather easy to get good use of his SS cost. 

So, I find HR Monks kind of a good alternative to Torakage or even 10T Brothers, for S&S where killing and movility are more valuable than interacts.

In the other hand, LR Monks... I can't see them working. As conditional-removing, I find them rather situational. With that total 6" range, they have to be in the thick of it, but then they will just get easily killed. As any other role, 10T Brothers for just 1SS more are shamlessly better, and Tengu dismark them as cheap scheme runners. 

The best scene I see for the LR Monks is if facing Kaeris or McMourning, where their own inmunity to Burning/Poison, plus the *situational* condition removal, could make them quite useful for their cost. 

And complety agree with with BigHammer. Chiaki is worth way more than 33% more than a LR Monk. Just being able to easily remove two conditions in such a wide range in one activation (and with the chance of healing while doing it) makes her way more reliable for condition removal than the monks.

[MR TORGUE]

I reckon if they increased the low-river cost and provided a push and debuff to their no damage attack they would be amazing. 

Something like:

MI 5 / DF/WP 1"  -  to disengaging strikes.  - Upon succeeding push defending model up to 2" in any direction and push this model into base contact with opposing model. - defending model gains the following condition: Pacified; This model may not take MI actions until the end of the turn.

 

[Jokerboy]

The Low River Monks are good with Shenlong and his Emissary, because you can get the focus +3 condition (for the card draw ability of the Emissary) for 1 AP and use the second AP to walk up with your Crew.

[BigHammer]

3 hours ago, Shen Long said:

The Low River Monks are good with Shenlong and his Emissary, because you can get the focus +3 condition (for the card draw ability of the Emissary) for 1 AP and use the second AP to walk up with your Crew.

This might be the first decent use for them I've seen in a while. Good idea!

Edit: Okay, so the more I think about this, the more I love it. Spend 4SS, get a 9-card hand for as long as you keep these models going and near each other. The Emissary is already a fantastic choice for a Shenlong crew, so including it doesn't hurt the crew any, and having such easy access to a guaranteed, cheap 3-card draw is pretty ridiculous. My Arcanist friends will be jealous.

[BigHammer]

I tried that trick tonight. 45 SS game, Headhunter in corner deployment, Show of Force, Marked for Death, Frame for Murder, Mark Territory.

I took Shenlong with recalled training and wandering river style, Yu with promising disciple, Kang with recalled training, the Shadow Emissary with the Conflux of Dawn, one Low River monk and a peasant, 7SS cache.

Opponent took summoning dreamer with emissary and Tannen, etc.

The hand and board control I was able to exert was completely overpowering. Most of my opponents' models were dead or dying by the end of turn 2, and my models were barely touched. Yu would pull something in, tag it for marked for death for free, then a fast Kang would whomp them to death. Shenlong only ever had to play support to the killing power of the emissary and Kang, who had their pick of targets the whole time. Definitely going to try this more.

[OneLittleThunder]

Just checking my math - I assume you're using both 1 AP and a (0) Action (within 6 of Shenlong) for the Low River Monk to get to 3 Focus?

[Abbazabba1920]

Yes, or a peasant when they're in range for one of the focus.

[Patzer]

They can also spend both of their AP to get to Focus +3 thanks to Reading the Wind, if not within Shenlong's aura. The additional AP could be used to keep up otherwise. 

[qoob]

On ‎08‎.‎02‎.‎2016 at 8:40 PM, OneLittleThunder said:

Just checking my math - I assume you're using both 1 AP and a (0) Action (within 6 of Shenlong) for the Low River Monk to get to 3 Focus?

Not exactly: They use 1 AP to Focus and get a second Focus from their Reading the Wind ability. And the third is a (0) Action if the Monk is inside the 6" bubble.

[scarlett fever]

I've been playing with this also and it's pretty solid, especially in a kill focused Shenlong crew. I've also found it frees up my hand to use You Shall Not See Another Sunrise effectively with the Swordsman. Usually I find using Sunrise aggressively requires either my whole hand or a very specific one, but with 3 extra cards he becomes fearsome. I tend to load up for turn 2 and then switch between the Emissary's 0's in the later turns depending on what's required.

[OneLittleThunder]

2 hours ago, qoob said:

Not exactly: They use 1 AP to Focus and get a second Focus from their Reading the Wind ability. And the third is a (0) Action if the Monk is inside the 6" bubble.

That's exactly what I meant - sorry if I wasn't clear.

[qoob]

1 hour ago, OneLittleThunder said:

That's exactly what I meant - sorry if I wasn't clear.

Whoopsi ^^ sorry for that

[Rurouni Benshin]

Wow, I hadn't thought about the LRM with Shenlong like that.  I just thought it'd be thematic to run all 4 monks with him in a crew once. 

But on the topic of the LRM, I played one in a recent tournament, with very good success.  I played Mei Feng, but it was Toshiro that benefited the most from him.  With "Command the Graves", I was able to summon 2 Komainu on each opening turn, and with LRM, was able to take away "Slow" from one of the Komainu, while Toshiro made the other "Fast".  When it wasn't taking away "Slow" from my summoned minions, he was taking Poison away from my other models, and running schemes when needed.

Overall Analysis: He's a solid model when the crew fits him.  Definitely want to try him with Shenlong now though, that being said.

[ArcticPangolin]

I remember reading their entry in M2E and thinking "Cool, a healer". Then seeing no Wd removal ability on them and being a little confused.