Belles, tell me why they shouldn't be toned down.

[Fexxo]

OK the title kind of speaks for itself though I will also accept the answer that they should be toned down due to the fact that I find them very very strong. I would just like a professional opinion.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Fexxo

[solkan]

It's easier to get a professional rebuttal if you provide a professional critique.

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Please see the other threads on this topic that have been posted multiple times.

[Bodiless]

It is a bit odd at this point. Justin has publicly stated that he regrets giving them Ca 8. There have also been some pretty significant changes made to models in print (see Gamin, Metal), so they have broken that particular seal. I was honestly a bit surprised to see that they were willing to make such a big change in metal Gamin without also changing Belles. And given that they were willing to make such a big change I won't be surprised if we see Belles toned down in the future.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Link to the public admission please.

[Bodiless]

I'm not sure my google-fu is up the challenge but I will try to track it down.

[Durza]

Pretty sure it was a podcast, he said belles should probably have been cast 7, but that's not enough for an errata. He wants to keep errata to a minimum and only wants to do it to models that break the game. Personally i think Metal gamin needed the cuddle but belles don't. 

[Bodiless]

Pretty sure it was a podcast, he said belles should probably have been cast 7, but that's not enough for an errata. He wants to keep errata to a minimum and only wants to do it to models that break the game. Personally i think Metal gamin needed the cuddle but belles don't. 

That sounds like what I would remember (finding a quote in a podcast is definitely beyond my google skills ). And my point was just that the metal Gamin cuddle was bigger change than I expected them to be willing to make, and that if they were willing to do that I wouldn't be surprised if Belles followed since they were the only thing I remember him talking about wanting to change. Nothing to say it will actually happen, just that the metal Gamin cuddle makes it seem more likely to me. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Personally doubt it. Arcanists have won multiple big multi-meta tournaments. And I think we all suspect the change to them was not due to the hiring of metal gamin, but to a model that came out in wave 2 summoning them. If that wasn't the case I personally doubt they would have been changed. 

Ressers have won 1 with arguably the UKs best resser player at the helm. And belles have always been able to be summoned, so they were tested with that in mind. And we finally have a clarification that one of the more abusive things people were doing with lure we finally know you can't do.

Only Justin knows for sure. I was surprised that gamin got a change myself mainly because it would start threads like this. If belles get changed as well personally I would expect increased calls for ALL the over effective models get erratad.

[Fexxo]

It's easier to get a professional rebuttal if you provide a professional critique.

 

Ok well I am not professional but I think their Ca is a tad too high, I never have to worry about whether I am going to succeed or not, I know it's going to be quite hectic for even a master to beat. Which is a bit crazy. Though I haven't played them out of Seamus and I should of said I am new to this game, I find them super good with him even more so with Sinister Reputation.

[Fexxo]

Please see the other threads on this topic that have been posted multiple times.

Sorry, I did look back but couldn't see anything for a few pages but will look more in depth next time.

[Fexxo]

Sorry about this thread. I see I need to do research before I post. I will refrain from posting on forums from now on.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You are entitled to your opinion. Threads like this pop up from time to time. Believe me there are many models I personally think are too strong that a small part of me would love to see errata. However despite my personal opinions I personally try to look at the big picture. Overall the game is pretty well balanced and barring evidence that something is breaking the game, like repeated wins at massive multi-meta tournaments, with the broken model clearly accounting for the repeated wins, I personally am against constant errata. 

So while I don't agree with your premise belles should be changed, I also wouldn't want to shut down discussion on the topic.

Here are links to the two most prominent of the discussion threads on this topic from the past for those who have recently joined the game.

http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/99755-rotten-belles-a-happier-redux/

 

[Fexxo]

Thank you very much Fetid will take a read.

Well I think I started this thread badly. I am actually bit conflicted on them, as you said Ressers aren't winning every tournament. So for me that makes me think that they not as strong as what people suggest. Though yeah next time I will think a little more before posting I know threads like this can be irritating if someone doesn't think it through which I didn't :).

[Kadeton]

The Resser faction as a whole confuses me in this regard. There are so many Resser models that look incredibly strong on paper, and model abilities that seem devastating when combined, and yet Ressers don't seem to be doing particularly well on a global scale - their lackluster showing in the Nythera event being the most prominent recent example.

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be fair, I'm not sure how much you can read into results on the lower end of the event results. I think there is some useful data that can be derived from the top end of the scale, but the event rules don't really encourage those who fall behind to keep playing.

About mid-event our placing in the event started to generate a large amount of apathy and you'll notice our games played numbers started to fall drastically. So I'm not sure you can chalk our results to our relative power level overall.

[Adran]

Belles on their own aren't too good. Lots of belles and model to support them can be very good. But then that can be said for most things. 

Countering their power does depend on the table, but I haven't had too many problems even when facing belle packs because I know what they can do. 

Plus, most of the time my playstyle is very in my opponents face, so them using their AP to get me closer to them is a big bonus to me a lot of the time. 

I don't think the Ca 8 is their most annoying stat, its the Wd 8 that is worse for me. Ca 7 belles would play almost exactly the same. 

 

Other Meta may vary, but I've not seen "belle spam" lists as a problem. 

 

On a side note

UK GT was just won by a resser player that doesn't own a belle.

 

Edit:-

Also, the main reason to not change them, is that they are printed as they are. You would need a very good reason to change them. the onus is on the person wanting the change to demonstrae why they would need changing. 

 

Edited November 27, 2015 by Adran

[Flint]

The Resser faction as a whole confuses me in this regard. There are so many Resser models that look incredibly strong on paper, and model abilities that seem devastating when combined, and yet Ressers don't seem to be doing particularly well on a global scale - their lackluster showing in the Nythera event being the most prominent recent example.

That doesn't have to be reason for Ressers performance during Nythera, it may be as well lesser popularity among more experienced players who tried some other factions for a change.

The annoying stats forBelles are Ca+range which gives them quite large area of control. 8 wounds+hard to wound allows them steal at least 3 ap even from heavy hitters in their attempts to remove Belle. And all that costs just 5ss.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Flint
Addendum

[Kadeton]

The annoying stats forBelles are Ca+range which gives them quite large area of control. 8 wounds+hard to wound allows them steal at least 3 ap even from heavy hitters in their attempts to remove Belle. And all that costs just 5ss.

Oh, Belles are a great package, no doubt. But "annoying" is not the same as "broken". Metal Gamin were being used in a way that was not intended, and as a result, they were changed. Belles are simply very good at the thing they were designed to do, and everyone is using them as intended.

I don't want to sound dismissive, but I've won many games against people who hired Belles, and I've been beaten when I've used Belles in my own lists. They sure are annoying... but that's all. (In my opinion, Nurses are far scarier.)

[oryxwild]

That's right, Belles are very strong but they're very limited by a> low defense (good luck with those disengaging strikes!) and b> one directional lure which is almost literally useless once they're in b2b. Other models which have omnidirectional pushes are much stronger overall (not that belles are weak, but they require a lot of positioning to get the most use out of lure). Nurses are much scarier because 1 ap on a 5 ss, def6 model can, without too much effort (I'm looking at you, sinister reputation) waste 2 ap on any model in 8''

[MagicGis]

I think this thread contains quite a bit of truth... however with the very poorly executed metal gamin cuddle.... from must have everywhere to 99% not worth the hire situational as a summon... the flood gates have been opened.

 

Why should anybody now still accept a model being near mandatory in a faction?

 

Look at the new player advises... get belles is everywhere... for a good reason... The same argument as for metal gamin can be made that they may even generate a negative play experience for the opponent in some situations... for the gamins it were even the mech rider most people complained about yet she remained untiuched while the gamin were put to sleep...

I think every faction should now expect their must have minion to get the hammer after extensive forum complaints to a lvl that nearly invalidates the buy... otherwise the cuddle/balancing policy seems even weirder. 

 

I actually think promoting diversity would be good... PoM needed fixing so maybe belles need ca 7 the problem is the metal gamin cuddle suggests they would also loose h2w and pounce ^^

[Durza]

Belles arent mandatory, really good, yes. Metal gamin were, even after the cuddle they are still worth a hire, you can actually now look at other 4 stone models when hiring instead of just going with metal gamin, because why would you have hired anything else?

[CactusEmperor]

I'm somewhat new to the game so my opinion on the matter may mean little, but I feel the Belles are where they are because the Ressers are nearly entirely melee based. Without a model that allows for reliable gap closing, it suddenly becomes much more difficult to deal with things like long range snipers or highly mobile ranged models. Before picking up my Seamus box I would always find it really frustrating when reading the wiki for ideas against opponents I had trouble with and seeing the advice of taking them out at range. Now I feel like I can at least do something against a 14 range unit other than have to eat two attacks before even getting a chance to do anything back.

[oryxwild]

That's a good point... Rezzers have very few answers to a vantage point sniper with high WP, other than belles and mercs. 

[Dirial]

I think this thread contains quite a bit of truth... however with the very poorly executed metal gamin cuddle.... from must have everywhere to 99% not worth the hire situational as a summon... the flood gates have been opened.

The Metal Gamin errata was not the first errata. Nothing changed about any flood gates.