Metal Gamin Errata

[Philosfr]

It's interesting to me that people think Metal Gamin are useless and have no niche now that they lost Hard to Kill. They still work perfectly fine as tarpit models. Consider that most attacks in this game have weak damage 3 or less and that most attacks that hit end up being weak, and you'll realize that it still takes 4 successful hits to kill a Metal Gamin.  I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a Metal Gamin take more than 1 Wd from an attack that didn't ignore armor.

Plus, they have the ability to take "free" defensive stance so they're perfectly serviceable tanks, especially for 4SS.

Thumbs up from me, that's how I generally see them. Sure, they'll no longer take a cheated in severe damage from Nekima or something of similar weight class, but for 4 SS, should they? 

Usually HtK ended up useless on Metal Gamin since you were likely only hitting for 1 damage anyway, except for the few models who have "ignore armor". Even more to Moxypoo's point about most attacks being weak damage... if you're hitting someone with armor, you're also probably less likely to cheat high. Cheating in severe to do 2 damage instead of 1 damage is probably not worth the card. 

[Sethis]

I don't think metal gamin are useless, I just think it's poor design to have an ability printed on a card that is essentially non-functional, and certainly not working the way it was intended.

Yes. being able to protect yourself with POM was daft, and not intended. They are supposed to be bodyguards/support for (I imagine) important models with low Def such as, I don't know, Raspy or a Rail Golem. But now the ONLY time when you are liable to use it is AFTER a mass brawl has already started. The requirement for staying within 3" is only realistically an option when both models are spending all their AP to punch something in the face. You can't set up POM before the fight, because either you use POM before the beneficiery of POM activates, in which case the target cannot charge/walk into engagement range without POM dropping, or you POM the target after they have already activated, and consequently whoever they are fighting has already had a chance to activate before you can slap on the POM, thus rendering a defensive boost pointless unless the target is getting whaled on by multiple models. And since POM isn't a 0 AP action, then the Gamin itself cannot charge, and, unless already engaged, will not attack this turn, and simply has to POM and then walk into combat, with the hopes of getting to swing next turn. Thus the only use for this ability is when the Gamin, and the model it is protecting, are already engaged, and the Gamin activates first out of all the combatants, throws on POM and then Headbutts once. Then the enemy activates a model, then you activate the POM receiver.

Now this would be a poorly implemented ability, even if there was no such thing as Lures, Pushes, Placements and so on in the game at all. Adding in all the dozens of ways that you can do this to your own models, or the enemy can do it to yours, renders it even more pointless. The only other alternative scenario is to have the Gamin and their buddy stood stationary, with the buddy throwing out ranged attacks. Since the Gamin has no ranged attacks, that's something of a waste of 4ss when the buddy is probably in cover already. You'd be better off running schemes or tarpitting with the Gamin (or any other 4ss model).

Now, sure, Metal Gamin probably needed a cuddle due to the introduction of a model that was previously not even in the game when the original rules for Gamin were created and playtested. I haven't been playing long enough to make that decision based on personal experience, I just read what everyone else is saying. But since Wyrd has bothered to change the rules for a model so drastically as to remove an entire printed rule from the card, and modified POM itself then I guess I'm just a little confused why they didn't fix POM so that it could actually function in the way it was intended - either by extending the possible range to at least the Gamin's CG value of 6 (and thus allowing for most other models base move of 4 or 5), or having the effect expire at End of Turn or Start of Target/Gamins next activation, or making it a 0 cost action, or making it a trigger-based ability: "When a friendly model within 3" is the target of an attack..."

Any of those changes (I'm not versed enough to say which would be overpowered or whatever) would at least make the ability something that people would use. I, for one, have never used it, ever, since the FAQ. There were always better options, whether that was Magnetism, attacking, or moving, or dropping scheme tokens. Having rules on a model that never take effect is bad design, so either remove the rule, or patch it so it actually works. HtK I don't really care about.

[dgraz]

First of all.........no one here knows how PoM was intended to work. Only the developers know that. So any assumption on how it's supposed to work is just that...an assumption.

Now, my assumption is that it's supposed to help to protect a low Df model that needs to hold a position. If my assumption is correct, then it works just fine.

People are crying foul because of things like Lure or other movement affects......those things work as counters to all support abilities like that. 'Cisco can't give his Df/Wp buff if he gets lured out........the Ice Gamin Bite of Winter buff doesn't help Raspy do more damage if the Gamin gets Lured out...and there are many, many more. If an enemy is spending AP to break a support ability well then that's that....it's not just PoM that suffers from that.

[MagicGis]

First of all.........no one here knows how PoM was intended to work. Only the developers know that. So any assumption on how it's supposed to work is just that...an assumption.

Now, my assumption is that it's supposed to help to protect a low Df model that needs to hold a position. If my assumption is correct, then it works just fine.

People are crying foul because of things like Lure or other movement affects......those things work as counters to all support abilities like that. 'Cisco can't give his Df/Wp buff if he gets lured out........the Ice Gamin Bite of Winter buff doesn't help Raspy do more damage if the Gamin gets Lured out...and there are many, many more. If an enemy is spending AP to break a support ability well then that's that....it's not just PoM that suffers from that.

How about you use a comperable skill? 

We are talking about a completely different level of investment between bite of winter and PoM. 

PoM costs an AP, Bite does not....

Bite has a 6" Aura  PoM works withion 3"....

Bite can affect multiple models within that radius PoM does not...

That makes lures a very poor counter to Bite, since you can only lure one of the models, a normal walk and nearly every push in the game is not guranteed to get it out of the 6" aura, and you invest AP to counter a zero. 

For PoM that is completely different, the area it works in is way smaller ensuring that nearly every push, move or lure is enough to get you out, which basically totally negates the use of one AP, since it only affects one model. 

Also Bite is an Aura so you can reposition your own pieces to give them the boost again while PoM is gone..

I am sorry but that comparison just shows that you did not spend any time thinking about it or you would have seen the clear differences. Could we please stop just dismissing every reasonable complaint with completely unfitting comparisons? 

The ability is clearly way harder to pull of at higher cost and lower pay of. Make it a 6" and we get to a reasonable usable skill again.. or check at end of and/or beginning of activation.

Edited November 16, 2015 by MagicGis

[lusciousmccabe]

I'm not hugely knowledgeable on the arcanists but I've always assumed that Protection of Metal was pretty useless, or at least highly situational. It wasn't until the errata that I realised it could (originally) be used on the gamin itself, which seems like a loophole to me (just my opinion).

Plenty of 4 soulstone models have useless abilities. More expensive ones do also, but I don't think it's in any way out of sorts for a 4SS minion to have an action you would literally never use except in the most favourable of circumstances, which is what the errata'd Protection of Metal looks like to me.  Dropping Hard to Kill may be a bit of a nuisance for people who actually hire Metal Gamins but having only ever seen them get pooped out of the Mech Rider it seems fair enough to me. 

[angyi]

Bite of Winter is not the best comparison for sure, but any other comparison would derail the matter, too.

Which is: PoM can easily be supposed to help to protect a low Df model that needs to hold a position, only it doesn't seem to be worth to take, considering the investment/effect ratio of the whole mechanics.

PoM is the Slate Ridge Mauler of tactical actions, at least many people think so.

[moxypoo]

I don't think metal gamin are useless, I just think it's poor design to have an ability printed on a card that is essentially non-functional, and certainly not working the way it was intended.

Yes. being able to protect yourself with POM was daft, and not intended. They are supposed to be bodyguards/support for (I imagine) important models with low Def such as, I don't know, Raspy or a Rail Golem. But now the ONLY time when you are liable to use it is AFTER a mass brawl has already started. The requirement for staying within 3" is only realistically an option when both models are spending all their AP to punch something in the face. You can't set up POM before the fight, because either you use POM before the beneficiery of POM activates, in which case the target cannot charge/walk into engagement range without POM dropping, or you POM the target after they have already activated, and consequently whoever they are fighting has already had a chance to activate before you can slap on the POM, thus rendering a defensive boost pointless unless the target is getting whaled on by multiple models. And since POM isn't a 0 AP action, then the Gamin itself cannot charge, and, unless already engaged, will not attack this turn, and simply has to POM and then walk into combat, with the hopes of getting to swing next turn. Thus the only use for this ability is when the Gamin, and the model it is protecting, are already engaged, and the Gamin activates first out of all the combatants, throws on POM and then Headbutts once. Then the enemy activates a model, then you activate the POM receiver.

Now this would be a poorly implemented ability, even if there was no such thing as Lures, Pushes, Placements and so on in the game at all. Adding in all the dozens of ways that you can do this to your own models, or the enemy can do it to yours, renders it even more pointless. The only other alternative scenario is to have the Gamin and their buddy stood stationary, with the buddy throwing out ranged attacks. Since the Gamin has no ranged attacks, that's something of a waste of 4ss when the buddy is probably in cover already. You'd be better off running schemes or tarpitting with the Gamin (or any other 4ss model).

Now, sure, Metal Gamin probably needed a cuddle due to the introduction of a model that was previously not even in the game when the original rules for Gamin were created and playtested. I haven't been playing long enough to make that decision based on personal experience, I just read what everyone else is saying. But since Wyrd has bothered to change the rules for a model so drastically as to remove an entire printed rule from the card, and modified POM itself then I guess I'm just a little confused why they didn't fix POM so that it could actually function in the way it was intended - either by extending the possible range to at least the Gamin's CG value of 6 (and thus allowing for most other models base move of 4 or 5), or having the effect expire at End of Turn or Start of Target/Gamins next activation, or making it a 0 cost action, or making it a trigger-based ability: "When a friendly model within 3" is the target of an attack..."

Any of those changes (I'm not versed enough to say which would be overpowered or whatever) would at least make the ability something that people would use. I, for one, have never used it, ever, since the FAQ. There were always better options, whether that was Magnetism, attacking, or moving, or dropping scheme tokens. Having rules on a model that never take effect is bad design, so either remove the rule, or patch it so it actually works. HtK I don't really care about.

All of this was true of Protection of Metal before the errata; the difference is that people used PoM exclusively on the Metal Gamin itself, which was deemed too powerful. As dgraz pointed out, PoM works perfectly fine if you need to take and hold a spot. You're also assuming its use on a melee model, but the Metal Gamin can work perfectly fine as a bodyguard for a powerful ranged model.

First of all.........no one here knows how PoM was intended to work. Only the developers know that. So any assumption on how it's supposed to work is just that...an assumption.

Now, my assumption is that it's supposed to help to protect a low Df model that needs to hold a position. If my assumption is correct, then it works just fine.

People are crying foul because of things like Lure or other movement affects......those things work as counters to all support abilities like that. 'Cisco can't give his Df/Wp buff if he gets lured out........the Ice Gamin Bite of Winter buff doesn't help Raspy do more damage if the Gamin gets Lured out...and there are many, many more. If an enemy is spending AP to break a support ability well then that's that....it's not just PoM that suffers from that.

How about you use a comperable skill? 

We are talking about a completely different level of investment between bite of winter and PoM. 

PoM costs an AP, Bite does not....

Bite has a 6" Aura  PoM works withion 3"....

Bite can affect multiple models within that radius PoM does not...

That makes lures a very poor counter to Bite, since you can only lure one of the models, a normal walk and nearly every push in the game is not guranteed to get it out of the 6" aura, and you invest AP to counter a zero. 

For PoM that is completely different, the area it works in is way smaller ensuring that nearly every push, move or lure is enough to get you out, which basically totally negates the use of one AP, since it only affects one model. 

Also Bite is an Aura so you can reposition your own pieces to give them the boost again while PoM is gone..

I am sorry but that comparison just shows that you did not spend any time thinking about it or you would have seen the clear differences. Could we please stop just dismissing every reasonable complaint with completely unfitting comparisons? 

The ability is clearly way harder to pull of at higher cost and lower pay of. Make it a 6" and we get to a reasonable usable skill again.. or check at end of and/or beginning of activation.

Interesting that you called him out for using a not comparable skill but then ignored 'Cisco's Wp/Df buff that works nearly exactly the same way as PoM that dgraz mentioned in his post. The point is not that every example of a buff in the game works the same as PoM.  Instead the point is that any buff that has some area of effect can be foiled by lure effects.  Obviously it will be more difficult to foil some effects than others depending on the range of the effect.

Edited November 16, 2015 by moxypoo

[dgraz]

 I am sorry but that comparison just shows that you did not spend any time thinking about it or you would have seen the clear differences. Could we please stop just dismissing every reasonable complaint with completely unfitting comparisons? 

Oh...I'm sorry did I disagree with you and ruffle your feathers? I didn't call you out personally or insult anyone. Escalating it by telling me that I haven't put any thought into it and your aggressive dismissal clearly shows that your thoughts are over-exaggerated and not very well thought out either.

Just because Bite works differently (and I agree that it works easier) doesn't mean that movement effects are a poor counter. Movement effects are a proper counter to ANY area buff ability. Your straw-man argument clearly ignored my 'Cisco reference which is more comparable due its targeting restrictions (though it also does not require an AP)......there are literally dozens of buffs that a movement effect can disrupt and I'm sure that if I felt like amusing you I could go through the books and find you a few examples.

I don't think PoM is all that and a bag of chips either....but I think the complete dismissal of the Metal Gamin model because it has one ability that can be difficult to use is foolish.

[Sethis]

(A) First of all.........no one here knows how PoM was intended to work. Only the developers know that. So any assumption on how it's supposed to work is just that...an assumption.

(B) Now, my assumption is that it's supposed to help to protect a low Df model that needs to hold a position. If my assumption is correct, then it works just fine.

(C) People are crying foul because of things like Lure or other movement affects......those things work as counters to all support abilities like that. 'Cisco can't give his Df/Wp buff if he gets lured out........the Ice Gamin Bite of Winter buff doesn't help Raspy do more damage if the Gamin gets Lured out...and there are many, many more. If an enemy is spending AP to break a support ability well then that's that....it's not just PoM that suffers from that.

A. No, we can't "know" anything, but read the ability, and the way it interacts with Head Butt. It seems like a *logical inference* that flavourwise, it represents the Gamin somehow using its close proximity to shield a model from incoming melee damage, hence the bonus +2 burning vs melee swings that the beneficiary gets.

B. It works just fine... except name a low Def model in Arcanists that this model suitably protects. Here's a list of Def 4 and below models we have access to, because I'm working off the assumption that an increase of only +1 Def is a poor return for 1AP and 4ss:

- Raspy

- Ice Golem

- Ramos

- Willie

- Rail Golem

And that's pretty much it. Of those, models that need to hold a position are probably going to be ranged, as otherwise you're wasting their entire offensive potential, which is suboptimal gameplay at best. So essentially Ramos and Raspy. That's two models total that you might plan, right from the start, to include the Metal Gamin in the list to protect. That's hardly a strong indicator that Metal Gamin are in any way flexible enough to be worth taking for their ability to support a model with POM. And that's even without mentioning that a Gamin can only protect the above models when the following criteria are met:

- Neither model moves more than 3"

- The Gamin has nothing better to do with its other AP than declare a Defensive stance i.e. is it not better to move 4" and drop a scheme marker?

I'm not saying that because POM is useless, Gamin should never be taken. I'm saying that you never take Gamin because of POM. And an ability that doesn't factor into your decision making when choosing the model, is a pointless ability. 

C. If you re-read my post above, you'll notice that I said POM was a bad ability even WITHOUT movement effects. I have never said that Lures et al are the only reason POM is incredibly useless.

Hidden Content

(D) All of this was true of Protection of Metal before the errata; the difference is that people used PoM exclusively on the Metal Gamin itself, which was deemed too powerful. As dgraz pointed out, PoM works perfectly fine if you need to take and hold a spot. You're also assuming its use on a melee model, but the Metal Gamin can work perfectly fine as a bodyguard for a powerful ranged model.

Hidden Content

(E) Interesting that you called him out for using a not comparable skill but then ignored 'Cisco's Wp/Df buff that works nearly exactly the same way as PoM that dgraz mentioned in his post. The point is not that every example of a buff in the game works the same as PoM.  Instead the point is that any buff that has some area of effect can be foiled by lure effects.  Obviously it will be more difficult to foil some effects than others depending on the range of the effect.

D. Surely saying that the only reason POM was used was to protect itself is an argument in support of my position? If the only use of the ability is through a "loophole" then surely it's a bad ability? As mentioned, our "Powerful ranged model" consists of two casters, only one of which the Gamin has any real synergy with (Ramos).

E. Name any other ability in the game that requires both models to remain within 3" at all times in order to benefit from the effect, that drops instantly when either model moves, and is so massively situational as to never be used. Because that ability will also be terrible. The Lure counter isn't even part of the debate, because the ability is bad even if they didn't exist.

I don't think PoM is all that and a bag of chips either....but I think the complete dismissal of the Metal Gamin model because it has one ability that can be difficult to use is foolish.

Who's dismissing them? Again, reread my post. Specifically the first 7 words. I'm not arguing that Gamin are useless. I'm arguing that POM is useless. Which is bad design. And since the Devs obviously devoted at least *some* consideration to the model and the rules in the latest FAQ, I'm mystified as to why it remained as-is.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Sethis

[Dirial]

So, Sethis.... what is the point of your argument? One errata you agree on: PoM on the Gamin was a loop hole. Hard to Kill doesn't make that big a difference in my eyes. Are we still talking about the errata here.... or something else? Or is this just escalating arguments about a non-issue, for the heck of it?

Metal Gamin are still good 4SS Minions in my eyes. The errata changed them from "hell of overpowered" to "okay for their cost". That was the point, so I'd say the errata was pretty successful.

[moxypoo]

(A) First of all.........no one here knows how PoM was intended to work. Only the developers know that. So any assumption on how it's supposed to work is just that...an assumption.

(B) Now, my assumption is that it's supposed to help to protect a low Df model that needs to hold a position. If my assumption is correct, then it works just fine.

(C) People are crying foul because of things like Lure or other movement affects......those things work as counters to all support abilities like that. 'Cisco can't give his Df/Wp buff if he gets lured out........the Ice Gamin Bite of Winter buff doesn't help Raspy do more damage if the Gamin gets Lured out...and there are many, many more. If an enemy is spending AP to break a support ability well then that's that....it's not just PoM that suffers from that.

B. It works just fine... except name a low Def model in Arcanists that this model suitably protects. Here's a list of Def 4 and below models we have access to, because I'm working off the assumption that an increase of only +1 Def is a poor return for 1AP and 4ss:

- Raspy

- Ice Golem

- Ramos

- Willie

- Rail Golem

And that's pretty much it. Of those, models that need to hold a position are probably going to be ranged, as otherwise you're wasting their entire offensive potential, which is suboptimal gameplay at best. So essentially Ramos and Raspy. That's two models total that you might plan, right from the start, to include the Metal Gamin in the list to protect. That's hardly a strong indicator that Metal Gamin are in any way flexible enough to be worth taking for their ability to support a model with POM.

Hoffman can take them in Guild. Leveticus can take them in Outcasts. Mei Feng can take them in Ten Thunders. Plus all the mercenaries that can be brought into the Arcanists. There are lots and lots of models that can benefit from increasing their defense.

Also you seem to be hinging your argument on hiring a Metal Gamin specifically to use PoM.  I've generally seen Metal Gamin hired to tarpit a more costly enemy model since they're incredibly tough for a 4SS model in addition to any master specific synergy you might have.

C. If you re-read my post above, you'll notice that I said POM was a bad ability even WITHOUT movement effects. I have never said that Lures et al are the only reason POM is incredibly useless.

Incredibly useless is a strong phrase. There are a number of uses for PoM that have been delineated in this thread, including protecting a ranged model, holding a point, and one you yourself discussed - protecting a model engaged in a combat. That suggests that its not a useless ability.  I agree that PoM is not broadly applicable, but there are most certainly uses for it. Many abilities in this game are what one could call corner-case, in that they only apply to specific situations, but I don't hear people saying things like Relentless are useless.

Hidden Content

(D) All of this was true of Protection of Metal before the errata; the difference is that people used PoM exclusively on the Metal Gamin itself, which was deemed too powerful. As dgraz pointed out, PoM works perfectly fine if you need to take and hold a spot. You're also assuming its use on a melee model, but the Metal Gamin can work perfectly fine as a bodyguard for a powerful ranged model.

Hidden Content

(E) Interesting that you called him out for using a not comparable skill but then ignored 'Cisco's Wp/Df buff that works nearly exactly the same way as PoM that dgraz mentioned in his post. The point is not that every example of a buff in the game works the same as PoM.  Instead the point is that any buff that has some area of effect can be foiled by lure effects.  Obviously it will be more difficult to foil some effects than others depending on the range of the effect.

D. Surely saying that the only reason POM was used was to protect itself is an argument in support of my position? If the only use of the ability is through a "loophole" then surely it's a bad ability? As mentioned, our "Powerful ranged model" consists of two casters, only one of which the Gamin has any real synergy with (Ramos).

Four factions can take the Metal Gamin, so you have to consider its uses in Outcasts, 10T, and Guild as well. I won't say that it's a bad ability, but I will say that it requires a specific setup to be useful. You seem to be saying that PoM is bad because it's rare that it will be useful, but I disagree.

 

Edited November 16, 2015 by moxypoo

[dgraz]

 

A. No, we can't "know" anything, but read the ability, and the way it interacts with Head Butt. It seems like a *logical inference* that flavourwise, it represents the Gamin somehow using its close proximity to shield a model from incoming melee damage, hence the bonus +2 burning vs melee swings that the beneficiary gets.

And? That's what it does.

B. It works just fine... except name a low Def model in Arcanists that this model suitably protects. Here's a list of Def 4 and below models we have access to, because I'm working off the assumption that an increase of only +1 Def is a poor return for 1AP and 4ss:

If that's the only things you can see it for then sure you'd be right. (continued at the end)

 

Who's dismissing them? Again, reread my post. Specifically the first 7 words.

You're not the only person in this thread. I have not quoted you or called you out by name....you are personalizing my comments in a way that simply did not exist until you created it.

I'm not arguing that Gamin are useless. I'm arguing that POM is useless. 

Before I even knew that they could put PoM on themselves (an obvious loop-hole...thankfully closed) I used the Metal Gamin numerous times. I disagree that +1 Df is a waste. My biggest example of Metal Gamin use is with Cojo. Anyone that knows me knows that I play Marcus incredibly fluffy.....I virtually NEVER take models that aren't beasts.....however...the Metal Gamin was good enough for me to break that rule.

I rarely used Cojo....and when I did it was only basically for Turf War and Squatter's Rights. I used to put Imbued Protection on him.....then I realized that for only 2ss more, I could get him to Df 6, have another significant minion to score the Turf War VP, a significant minion that could drop Scheme Markers for Cojo to eat, a model that could assist Cojo in combat, AND have another activation.

But what do I know? I've obviously never read the card or played the game.

[Dirial]

But what do I know? I've obviously never read the card or played the game.

Yeah, right.

[Suzakuni]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks and I still think this was a wrong step.  I will acknowledge that this is wyrds game and they have every right to "fix" as they see fit and this is pure opinion on my part.

 

1. Htk with armor 2 is amazingly strong, however I believe this was balanced due to the walk 4, and an almost useless melee atk meaning it was only good at staying alive longer than its other brethren. If an opponent needed to get away from it it could, it demanded no presence, and if killing it was important, than it would die after enough as was sunk into killing it. Honestly if Pom and magnetism was removed instead of Htk, I honestly would not have had an issue, as it is now, I can't see myself hiring them due to more offensive, proactive models now that I cannot rely on its ability to survive.

 

 

2.  I hate that since other factions/models/mechanics as reasoning for Cuddling the gamin. If these other op situations are created with what other models are doing with them, why doesn't the "fix" start with that area instead of going to the original, "non op" element that became abused later.

 

again I love this game and will only ever play as arcanists, but until I see something in the future that gives these guys some kind of boost over the other gamin, I cannot see any reason to take this less useful model vs the other "proactive" choices now

 

[dgraz]

2.  I hate that since other factions/models/mechanics as reasoning for Cuddling the gamin.

The Mech Rider is Arcanist.

Either way, the Metal Gamin was cuddled because it was OP.....not just because of 'other' things.

[Suzakuni]

True, but unless it was interference summoning mini bombs (fire and ice gamin) I always found to be better uses for the summon. Also, I've mostly heard the complaining that they were op due to Leveticus and Hoffman shenanigans. 

 

[MagicGis]

Just because a fixing was needed (old incarnation of PoM) does not mean the one done was right.

 

It did not solve the Hoffman and Levi problem at all. It maybe solved the mech rider issue but also as described above made PoM so hard to use its barely ever reasonable to hire the model over a steam archid....

 

It is simply a shot from the hip to fix the problem and it hit the wrong leg.

It left half of the issue untackeled (looking at you hoff) while crippling the potential as a hire compared to the other arcanist options. That is bad balancing... and please don´t tell me that is the intended way and cost at which Hoff is supposed to have access to this Ca... because I think we all know better... 

Fix PoM to a degree where it is usable in common game situations so the model has it´s niche as a hire again. That should not pose a problem with Mech rider if done properly as long ad self protect stays out of it, as if you summon it for hunkering down with PoM it will still do the same as it does now.

[dgraz]

That is bad balancing... and please don´t tell me that is the intended way and cost at which Hoff is supposed to have access to this Ca... because I think we all know better... 

You are incorrect. It was tested that way during an open beta where people used it. If it was a problem, it would have been sorted then. If it really was a problem, it would have been corrected when they corrected PoM.

[Ludvig]

True, but unless it was interference summoning mini bombs (fire and ice gamin) I always found to be better uses for the summon. Also, I've mostly heard the complaining that they were op due to Leveticus and Hoffman shenanigans. 

 

Not sure what the exploit is with Leveticus but Hoffman was tested with their Ca 8 and the developer team knew about it from week one and chose to not change it so it is definetly meant to be that easy for him to cast his spells. 

[dgraz]

 Not sure what the exploit is with Leveticus but Hoffman was tested with their Ca 8 and the developer team knew about it from week one and chose to not change it so it is definetly meant to be that easy for him to cast his spells. 

Yeah....It's kinda Hoffman's whole thing....to be able to pick out model's that will enhance his crew through the Power Loop.

[Ludvig]

Don't forget to compare Protection of metal with Imbued protection. If you want to be protected anywhere on the board you can get a fixed 4 or +1defence for 2ss. Note that the metal gamin raises you from potentially 3 to 6 which is three times as potent as that 2ss upgrade. That is probably the reason it's limited in where it can be applied and kept on. You are given a choice between mobility or protection.

 

[Bengt]

Not sure what the exploit is with Leveticus but Hoffman was tested with their Ca 8 and the developer team knew about it from week one and chose to not change it so it is definetly meant to be that easy for him to cast his spells. 

Hoffman has Ca 8 without MG and gets Ca 10 with them, due to Empower. So if he was tested with Ca 8 it really seems like Magnetism Ca should be lowered...

You are incorrect. It was tested that way during an open beta where people used it. If it was a problem, it would have been sorted then. If it really was a problem, it would have been corrected when they corrected PoM.

The first assertion assumes that all testing is flawless, which is ridiculous. But sure, Justin doesn't currently seem to think it's a problem.

[Suzakuni]

True, but unless it was interference summoning mini bombs (fire and ice gamin) I always found to be better uses for the summon. Also, I've mostly heard the complaining that they were op due to Leveticus and Hoffman shenanigans. 

 

Not sure what the exploit is with Leveticus but Hoffman was tested with their Ca 8 and the developer team knew about it from week one and chose to not change it so it is definetly meant to be that easy for him to cast his spells. 

i guess I'm still missing what was op to begin with. I've only heard the phrase op because of the out of faction hiring summoning. 

 

To to me I only ever saw them as solid defensive only models

[Dirial]

Okay, before they were Df 6, Armor 2, HtK models for 4 SS, which is way more than "solid defensive". In addition, they were Ml 4 weak damage 3 models which adds up pretty fast.

Such a model as a summon was way OP. The Mech Rider was hideous to face just because of these guys alone.

Facing 7 of these models, one coming in each turn while it's difficult to get rid of more than one per turn... most NPE I ever had. I'm glad it was reigned in. They are still solid defensive models.

[Flint]

I don't think that MGs PoM is better than upgrade. Upgrade is always with protected model, cannot be pushed, lured or killed (mostly). If MG is treated as an armour upgrade then it is a costly upgrade. It will do nothing else than run behind protected model. And also will be always one activation late. If it runs after killy model, walk 4 chg 6, let's say engage in second turn after charge then killer after charge will be unprotecred for one activation that may be crucial for his survive. Then comes MG with PoM. What if killer will kill model after charge and there wil be no model in range? Will have to move again, and PoM is gone. Upgrade works all the time.