Vlad Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Is it possible that good ol' Killjoy is one of the fallen Tyrants, what do you think? Description says that it's undead Neverborn creature which is cursed by its own kind (and having Black Blood means possibly Nephilim). And the curse of undeath for the entity who tried to be immortal is a bitter joke . And "kiljoy" literally is a bit close to "despair". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHammer Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 He'd likely have the Tyrant characteristic in game if that were the case. Isn't it heavily hinted that Despair lives in Pandora's box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 He'd likely have the Tyrant characteristic in game if that were the case. Isn't it heavily hinted that Despair lives in Pandora's box?Huggy doesn't have it when it's suspected Tyrant Fortune. Sonnia has it only when uses her Avatar form.I've read somewhere that Pandora's box is another thing than Tyrants, but not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordZombie Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I don't believe Hungering Darkness is a Tyrant. He was just a creature that lived at the time of the Tyrants and hid all the time so he did not get caught up in the war. In the M2E Ten Thunders story it the clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stux Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I'm not sure I'm totally clear on usage of the Tyrant type on models...It feels like if Hamelin and Shenlong have it, maybe Tara and Rasputina should? I mean they aren't Tyrants as such, but are largely powered by them. Feels like an arbitrarily drawn line at best. Or at least it suggests to me that whether something has the type or not shouldn't be taken as definitive evidence as to whether the character in fluff is or is not a Tyrant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I think you've got to remember that the tags on a model don't necessarily reflect anything but game mechanics. Sure, most of the time the game mechanics try to reflect the background material so that everything feels more "realistic", but there's a lot of complicated things going on.If someone opens up Crossroads and reads page 186, there shouldn't be any question about Hamlin. But if someone listened to the 1.5 edition book story about Hamlin (I forget which episode of the Through the Breach podcast has it, but it's available there) it's sort of vague what happened.December isn't possessing Rasputina, and that whole first story arc involving Rasputina, December, and Kaethira (I give up on the spelling) didn't involve anything like what happened to Hamlin. The tyrant lending a little bit of power isn't the same as the tyrant taking over completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 But how is December/Cherufe/Oblivion lending some of their power to a human host any different than The Dragon lending his power to Shenlong? In Crossroads it's pretty clear to me that Shenlong is not fully The Dragon in the same way Plague and Hamelin are one in the same. I wonder if the Tyrant type is just something they didn't think of until the Crossroads beta? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Wall Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I am pretty certain relic hammers were in wave 1, so the inclusion of tyrants would have been in the plan. I was under the impression that Shenlong was in fact possessed by the dragon in much the same way as avatar Sonia, or Hamelin but the monk training was designed to allow him to control the power of the tyrant until he burns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 But how is December/Cherufe/Oblivion lending some of their power to a human host any different than The Dragon lending his power to Shenlong? In Crossroads it's pretty clear to me that Shenlong is not fully The Dragon in the same way Plague and Hamelin are one in the same. I wonder if the Tyrant type is just something they didn't think of until the Crossroads beta?Has December shown any interest in manifesting through Rasputina? The Dragon sure was manifesting directly through Shenlong. Likewise, Cherufe sure gets described a lot more as breaking free when it manifests. And they might call the model Hamlin but that ain't Hamlin no more. Now, I'm sure there's a nice, slick slope between "lending aid" like December does and Plague's gobbling a person up to use as their corporeal puppet. And somewhere down that slope there's enough present to get the relic hammers angry.For all we know, Hungering Darkness is like a tyrant manifesting a little hand puppet, doing that little Mr. Bill voice. "Oh, no, I'm not a tyrant. Those tyrants are mean, icky things. I'm just innocent little Hungering Darkness. Yes, sir, that's me." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Has December shown any interest in manifesting through Rasputina? Towards end of Rising Powers (Tales should be there pretty soon) it tries to during the event, but Rasputina deflects it onto Snow (a recently killed silent one). December aborts the possession but the lingering energies creates Snow Storm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHammer Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 With regards to December and Cherufe, bear in mind that the Avatar forms of both Rasputina and Sonnia gain the Tyrant characteristic. They are absolutely the vessels of their Tyrants in the same way as Hamelin and Shenlong are to Plague and the Dragon, but they have different relationships with the Tyrants (Hamelin is dead and conquered and Shenlong is a willing host, while Rasputina has a tenuous control over December's influence and Sonnia's mask keeps Cherufe from burning everything to the ground all the time).I figure it's pretty clear in those four cases (as it is with Nytmare). Killjoy just seems to be something along the same lines as Hayreddin; Outcast from the Nephilim and Neverborn in general by his undead taint - necromancy is completely anaethema to the Neverborn, and to the Nephelim in particular (who are sort of an embodiment of life and growth and chaos, opposing Necromancy's death, decay and order). Perhaps at some point he had dealings with a Tyrant, which led to his curse, perhaps not; that's speculative.I don't personally believe the Hungering Darkness ever was a Tyrant either, but I'd be more than willing to be wrong on that count. I would love to find out more about the others, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 The Hungering Darkness is from the same time as the Tyrants (that we know) but from what we've seen so far he seems as concerned about them as anyone else. He hid away while the Tyrants where sealed and the fact he has two neverborn helping him seems to indicate that he is not a tyrant - the neverborn are supposed to be the arch enemies with the Tyrants (then again Nytmare is NB too)Killjoy just seems too - meh too be a tyrant. All the other Tyrants are Master level models and also the fact it's specifily stated as being a neverborn (and a nephilim) implies that it's not. My theory is that it might once have been a neverborn who sided with the Tyrants - when the Tyrants where sealed away Killjoy was punished for siding with the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 With regards to December and Cherufe, bear in mind that the Avatar forms of both Rasputina and Sonnia gain the Tyrant characteristic. They are absolutely the vessels of their Tyrants in the same way as Hamelin and Shenlong are to Plague and the Dragon, but they have different relationships with the Tyrants (Hamelin is dead and conquered and Shenlong is a willing host, while Rasputina has a tenuous control over December's influence and Sonnia's mask keeps Cherufe from burning everything to the ground all the time).From what I've read (which is missing the 3rd and 4th books of 1st edition) there is a large difference in degree though. There doesn't seem to be anything left of the original Hamelin, the thing that walks around looking like him is pure Tyrant. Cherufe in turn is hosted/trapped in Sonnia but not in control (as long as the mask stays on), while December hangs around in the aether (or where ever) waiting for an opportunity to either manifest physically (like at Kythera) or take possession of Rasputina (like after the red cage fell). I guess Cherufe could also be hanging around somewhere outside Sonnia, but Sonnia definitely seems closer to the brink than Rasputina. More of her stories concentrate on Cherufe chipping away at her sanity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stux Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 The status of Lord Chompy Bits is a bit of an odd one though. He is both an actual Tyrant, and a Neverborn. I wonder whether this is just a mechanical oddity, or if it is supported by the fluff that Neverborn work with LCB?It is often said that many Neverborn take forms based on the fears of humans, which sounds very much like LCB's domain. Perhaps this ability of the Neverborn originally stems from LCB? Perhaps even then the Neverborn are either unaware that LCB is a Tyrant, or are unaware that the source of their power to tap in to human fears comes from LCB? Perhaps Lilith/Zoraida or others are aware they are somewhat beholden to a Tyrant, but keep it quiet from the other Neverborn because they know they need the power?Or, LCB is a legit Tyrant who hates Neverborn and the Neverborn hate, BUT as he is for all practical purposes in the service of the Dreamer now he doesn't have much choice in the matter, and its actually the Dreamer that twists the forms of Neverborn using the Tyrant's power somewhat unwillingly.Lots of speculation here! And its quite possible canonically LCB is not really Neverborn at all, him and the Dreamer just got lumped in with them because he needed a faction and it made the most aesthetic sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Mechanically I think it was because they fit NB best and they do share similarities. From a fluff point of view Dreamer is a human (or at least we believe he is) who projects himself into Malifaux and has bound LCB too him. Certainly Dreamer best belongs in Neverborn as it would seem he is tapping into the power of Malifaux (the power the Neverborn use) to create his nightmares and also I believe it's been hinted that he has some kind of link with the Widdow Weaver in the fluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawg Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I'm pretty sure Killjoy is actually just a pig.I mean, he basically has Set'er Off, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHammer Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 With regards to December and Cherufe, bear in mind that the Avatar forms of both Rasputina and Sonnia gain the Tyrant characteristic. They are absolutely the vessels of their Tyrants in the same way as Hamelin and Shenlong are to Plague and the Dragon, but they have different relationships with the Tyrants (Hamelin is dead and conquered and Shenlong is a willing host, while Rasputina has a tenuous control over December's influence and Sonnia's mask keeps Cherufe from burning everything to the ground all the time).From what I've read (which is missing the 3rd and 4th books of 1st edition) there is a large difference in degree though. There doesn't seem to be anything left of the original Hamelin, the thing that walks around looking like him is pure Tyrant. Cherufe in turn is hosted/trapped in Sonnia but not in control (as long as the mask stays on), while December hangs around in the aether (or where ever) waiting for an opportunity to either manifest physically (like at Kythera) or take possession of Rasputina (like after the red cage fell). I guess Cherufe could also be hanging around somewhere outside Sonnia, but Sonnia definitely seems closer to the brink than Rasputina. More of her stories concentrate on Cherufe chipping away at her sanity.I agree, there is a difference in degree. That's why Rasputina and Sonnia only get the Tyrant characteristic when they manifest their avatar forms, in-game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kofibrake Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Maybe Lord Chompy bits is no Neverborn at all. He merely shares some characteristics with the Nightmarish creature as he is the Tyrant of Nightmares (kinda like Freddy Krueger minus the glove with a dozen eyes, on Steroids)Dont forget that Zoraida too is no Neverborn, merely a human that has evolved to become one with the land beyond the breach, and so her "neverborneness" was adopted.Werent there supposed to be 13 Tyrants in total? Who are they? How many have been ousted/hinted at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'm on my phone so I can't link too it but search the forum for Tyrants. There is a thread about them with the names of the 12 named Tyrants. The 13th is nameless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippodruid Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 There's a lot of Tyrant talk in an older thread (spoilers ahoy, for those that don't have the big M2E book). That said, there is new information about the thirteenth, unnamed Tyrant in Shifting Loyalties, so we're only missing direct references to a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Remember that the Tyrants are NOT by default allied to one another. Especially the Hamelin fluff makes it very clear that Plafue does not intend to share power with the others once he manifests. In fact December is often the enemy of Plague. It would make perfect for one or more of the Tyrants to form a temporary alliance with the neverborn to prevent other tyrants from getting the upper hanf. It's obvious Nytmare/LCB is s tyrant who is unable to break free from the dreamer. Hence the neverborn have no reason not to ally with him. Similarly Hungering Darkness might very well be a weak embodyment of a tyrant that the neverborn trust for the moment. Graves and Tannen might also have hidden agendas of their own which they don't share with the sisters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 there is new information about the thirteenth, unnamed Tyrant in Shifting Loyalties, so we're only missing direct references to a few.Please, couldn't you say the name of that story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 there is new information about the thirteenth, unnamed Tyrant in Shifting Loyalties, so we're only missing direct references to a few.Please, couldn't you say the name of that story?It's part of Taelor's story in the Outcasts section. She is an unreliable narrator, to be sure, but it seems like a lot of us have chosen to take what she said at face value, for the most part. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Yep Taelors story which is actually her telling multiple stories. I believe it's the first one she tells where she explains how she got her arm and the relic hammer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 there is new information about the thirteenth, unnamed Tyrant in Shifting Loyalties, so we're only missing direct references to a few.Please, couldn't you say the name of that story?Welcome to Malifaux in Shifting Loyalties. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.